Natsu 2025 discussion (results)

[Octofuji 387]

5 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I want to complain to no one about how ironic it is that I watch so little sumo when I’m in Japan compared to being elsewhere.

There’s never a tv available at nomikai

 Yes! It's really difficult. My solution last week was to go to a lovely old fashioned sento which always has NHK on in the waiting area afterwards.

[Bunbukuchagama 827]

Habemus yokozunam!

A real one this time.

[Kaninoyama 1,866]

Welcome to the Yokozuna club, Onosato!

[Jakusotsu 6,188]

With Daieisho faltering, the only thing still on the line is zensho.

[Tigerboy1966 1,539]

33 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

With Daieisho faltering, the only thing still on the line is zensho.

Just a thought. I know we can have a yokozuna-ozeki in July but they are going to want a proper ozeki as soon as possible. Could they consider moving the line down to 31 for Kirishma or Daieisho?

[hakutorizakura 673]

Wow! It's done, amazing. Props to both Onosato and moto-Kisenosato. The former's rocket rise compensates the latter's. Well done 

[MrGrumpyGills 143]

Congratz to Onosato and Nishonoseki
Now everybody better step up their game!

[RabidJohn 1,944]

That was a very entertaining day of sumo, not least of which was Shishi and Churanoumi battering each other around the dohyo several times. 

Soon-to-be 75th yokozuna Onosato made it look easy. The Curse Breaker - what a star!
I am thrilled for him and Nishonoseki-san. Getting the rope in just 13 basho is a record that's going to be almost impossible to beat.

I hope he keeps his foot on the gas, though, because a PB 14-1 or 15-0 is also well within his grasp.

[Hankegami 576]

Huh, a Japanese Yokozuna. I thought they came extinct 

Jokes aside, Onosato's promotion after clinching his yusho after Day 13 is historical in multiple ways. He's going to be: a) the first Japanese Yokozuna in years, and the first promising to be the dai-yokozuna of his generation since Takanohana (retired 2003); b) only the second MsTD Yokozuna (after Wajima), and the third Yokozuna with collegiate background (after Wajima and Asahifuji) - this shows that investment in college sumo and the tsukedashi system is finally paying off; c) now the youngest TD vessel / college graduate to get the rope at 24 y 11 m, moving over Wajima (25 y 4 m) and of course Asahifuji (30 y 0 m); d) the the fastest TD and rikishi in general to get the rope after just 13 basho starting from MsTD10 - Wajima needed 21 basho from MsTD60, and Asashoryu 25 from Maezumo; e) anyway the fastest to become Yokozuna since his Makuuchi debut with 9 basho - Asashoryu needed 13, and Wajima even 15; f) the first Yokozuna to be promoted with full back-to-back yusho since Harumafuji (2012). And he has yet to begin his career as a Yokozuna proper.

1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Just a thought. I know we can have a yokozuna-ozeki in July but they are going to want a proper ozeki as soon as possible. Could they consider moving the line down to 31 for Kirishma or Daieisho?

Why though? They have both spots covered by Hoshoryu and Onosato even in the event Kotozakura gets demoted. Actually, having two YO is even cozier, since they do not get demoted even if they sit out multiple tournaments. Of course, some back-up is always welcome. But lowering the bar to 31, which has never happened since 1985 (Onokuni) - and we know the reason -? Hoshoryu's promotion surely shows a certain nostalgia for 1980s rules, but as long as he continues to provide concerns over his suitability as a Yokozuna (don't get me wrong, I think he will go on just fine, but he's still on a trial period) I doubt the majority of the Shimpan Committee will facilitate a 31 wins Ozeki promotion anytime soon.

Anyway, I doubt they are going to make things overly easier for Kirishima and Daieisho of all people. Kirishima is a former Ozeki with recurring neck pain and a general pattern of one good and one more or less bad basho. He already went on a strike of three straight bad basho that led to his demotion from Ozeki. There is also the precedent of former Ozeki Miyabiyama, who was denied a second promotion in 2006 despite posting 34/3 wins (10-5, 14-1J, 10-5). In his case, he was denied promotion because he barely managed to get 10 wins especially in the third tournament. Several users here argued that Kirishima will be likely demanded a particularly strong performance to get re-promoted, and I happen to agree. Daieisho is also perceived as somewhat moody, I understand. However, he has a championship under his belt and has yet to prove himself at the rank, so I think he would be not treated as harshly as Kirishima. But it means 32/3 at the lowest IMHO. 

[Jakusotsu 6,188]

14 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

They have both spots covered by Hoshoryu and Onosato even in the event Kotozakura gets demoted. Actually, having two YO is even cozier, since they do not get demoted even if they sit out multiple tournaments.

Would be the first M18w since 1959 when there were 46 rikishi in Makuuchi.

[RabidJohn 1,944]

15 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

He's going to be: a) the first Japanese Yokozuna in years...

Since January 2019, so only six and change, and that's a mind-bogglingly short gap for the last Japanese yokozuna to raise a new one!

There were 14yrs between Takanohana and Kisenosato, though.

[warusawa 21]

So are we gonna get Hoshoryu vs Onosato on senshuraku? Would be a bout of some significance.

[Jyuunomori 227]

Congratulations to Oonosato. What a beautiful tournament, lets see if he can Zensho. Also we have Yokozuna on THE WALL now. Oonosato: ''Makekoshi? What is that? Can you eat it?''

Got to feel a bit sorry for Hakuouhou. First get destroyed by Oonosato, today get destroyed by Aonishiki. Can't see Atamifuji beating Aonishiki tomorrow either, so a safe bet would be a 10-5 record and maybe even a mirror 11-4 record of a last basho if he wrestles well. He is a pleasure to watch. I think he deserves a special prize again. Gino-sho would be fine due to all the technical stuff he has been doing.

Edited May 23 by Jyuunomori

[Andreas21 202]

24 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Would be the first M18w since 1959 when there were 46 rikishi in Makuuchi.

That's if Kotozakura gets demoted and if noone else is promoted to Ozeki, and if no third Sekiwake/Komusubi are created, which are big IFs. Kotozakura has secured KK this time and is still young and beside Daieisho, Kirishima, Wakatakakage there are plenty candidates (Oho, Aonishiki, Kusano).

[Andreas21 202]

41 minutes ago, Jyuunomori said:

Got to feel a bit sorry for Hakuouhou. First get destroyed by Oonosato, today get destroyed by Aonishiki.

This is the trouble for those hopefuls which do too well in the first 9 days. They got too (often far too) strong opposition. Those under the radar (like Onokatsu this time) fare much better. Has M17w tomorrow and may cruise to an 11-4 with very modest opponents.

Arguably, there is even a subjective factor that those who receive attention with large expectations, get even harder opposition than others with same result/rank combination.

[Hankegami 576]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Since January 2019, so only six and change, and that's a mind-bogglingly short gap for the last Japanese yokozuna to raise a new one!

There were 14yrs between Takanohana and Kisenosato, though.

That's a grand record for sure, but we also have to consider different contexts. Takanohana's retirement coincided with the advent of the Mongolian era in Ozumo, which came in a totally different magnitude than the previous Hawaiian era. Legions of young Mongolian tried their fortunes in sumo stables, and it is safe to say that their best perspectives in the wrestling world all became sumo wrestlers. Kisenosato and his peers had to face the best of the best, really. Onosato, instead, is the byproduct of an increasingly successful amateur sumo program in combination with a clear slowing down in the Mongolian pipeline, likely because of an increased international competition under the one-foreigner-per-stable rule. Furthermore - I don't want to diminish Kisenosato's contribution in raising his deshi, but Onosato came to him already as a fully formed wrestler. His blazing start of career shows he already got the basics and just had to learn how the Ozumo tournament system worked in the sense of physical burden (15-day tournaments, two per month, public engagements after every yusho, etc). No wonder Hakuho looked disgruntled when Nakamura chose Nihonoseki over Miyagino (and others) as his stable.

It's safe to argue that Onosato is far more Takanohana's heir than Kisenosato himself. He's certainly the long-awaited, homegrown, likely dai-yokozuna just like the younger Hanada brother had been back in his time. Kisenosato, squeezed between the Mongolians, was more a consolation prize waiting for better times.

Edited May 23 by Hankegami

[Sumo Spiffy 621]

35 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

Onosato, instead, is the byproduct of an increasingly successful amateur sumo program in combination with a clear slowing down in the Mongolian pipeline, likely because of an increased international competition under the one-foreigner-per-stable rule.

Just to clarify: are you actually arguing that the slowdown in Mongolian wrestlers coming into sumo is due to increased competition and not due to the one foreigner rule itself? Or are you saying it's because of the one foreigner rule and this was just a roundabout way of making that point?

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,281]

Sanyaku and joi scores are reminiscent of the 6 ozeki days

[Jakusotsu 6,188]

45 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

It's safe to argue that Onosato is far more Takanohana's heir than Kisenosato himself. He's certainly the long-awaited, homegrown, likely dai-yokozuna just like the younger Hanada brother had been back in his time.

Only that he's 3 years older on becoming yokozuna. At Onosato's age, Takanohana had already won 17 yusho and 9 jun-yusho.

[RabidJohn 1,944]

1 hour ago, Hankegami said:

I don't want to diminish Kisenosato's contribution in raising his deshi, but Onosato came to him already as a fully formed wrestler.

Nishonoseki got a very lucky strike with Onosato, no doubt, but doesn't every graduate ms td come fully formed? Onosato is the first since Wajima to get a rope, though. 

[hakutorizakura 673]

2 hours ago, Hankegami said:

Kisenosato, squeezed between the Mongolians, was more a consolation prize waiting for better times

No way, he would have been a proper yokozuna if not because of the injury. He was better than Kakuryu or Terunofuji, so probably could have had a similar level of achievement if not better.

[dingo 1,388]

What a day for sumo! But first a few thoughts on rikishi other than the soon-to-be-yokozuna. 

Midorifuji has turned the page completely. 4 wins in a row after a dismal 9 loss start and close to saving his makuuchi rank. Excellent effort!

Shishi and Churanoumi, what a bout! Slapping, pulling, pushing, escapes on the tawara, excitement all around. Hugely entertaining, and important win for Shishi too.

Aonishiki is just so good technically. The way he got a one handed belt grip and used that together with a sideways move to upset Hakuoho's balance was magic. At this point Aonishiki looks like a huge challenger for all the top rikishi.

Wakamotoharu was way too passive at the tachiai considering he's facing Takerufuji and it went exactly as expected. Wakamotoharu now has to win both remaining bouts if he wants to have a shot at komusubi.

Kirishima is doing exceptionally well this basho compared to his recent troubles. I suppose he still aims to return to ozeki and this basho gives him a good foundation for another shot.

Daieisho tried his best against Hoshoryu but the ozeki rank slips away from him once again. But if can get at least one, ideally both wins then he has something to build on for the coming months. 

As it thought, Kotozakura was not a too difficult challenge for Onosato. The tachiai was even, but once Onosato got going and his right hand grip, it was a walkover. Perhaps peak Kotozakura would've been a more serious challenge but he's not quite there. But it doesn't matter for Onosato who managed to keep calm, execute his sumo and can now rightly enjoy a fourth yusho and more importantly yokozuna promotion. Congratulations for the fastest rising yokozuna! If he manages to maintain the form of this basho, he will be scary for years to come.

[Kaito 322]

38 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Nishonoseki got a very lucky strike with Onosato, no doubt, but doesn't every graduate ms td come fully formed? Onosato is the first since Wajima to get a rope, though. 

They might come fully formed, but none have ever been nearly as accomplished as Onosato. I could have coached him to Yokozuna too.

[Gospodin 240]

5 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Just a thought. I know we can have a yokozuna-ozeki in July but they are going to want a proper ozeki as soon as possible. Could they consider moving the line down to 31 for Kirishma or Daieisho?

Not sure, but how they fare against the Yokozuna and Ozeki might make a difference, particularly for Kirishima, as he has already proven his ability.

[Hankegami 576]

30 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

Just to clarify: are you actually arguing that the slowdown in Mongolian wrestlers coming into sumo is due to increased competition and not due to the one foreigner rule itself? Or are you saying it's because of the one foreigner rule and this was just a roundabout way of making that point?

Well, I'm no Professor in International Sumo Networks, so take my word just as my personal impression on the matter. Anyway, I wasn't absolutely saying that the one-foreigner-per-heya rule is to be blamed for the current decreasing presence of Mongolian talents in Ozumo. That rule, although set up as a consequence of the "Mongolian invasion" (they first came up with a cap of 40 foreigners after Oshima-beya billed 6 Mongolians back in 1992, later substituted with the current rule), has the purpose to protect Japanese talents from an invasion of foreigners in general. Nothing in this rule keeps Mongolians away from flooding the dohyo generation after generation. My argument was more that now they have to face their fair share of international competition to be considered first - they cannot just come and give sumo a try anymore. Sumo recruitment pipelines for foreigners are now heavily drawing talents from international amateur sumo, and Ozumo has become increasingly popular internationally. This makes up for a larger international competition, and aside from a great tradition in bokh there is nothing that makes Mongolians better at combat sports than other young men around the world.

There are other considerations to be made, of course - first and foremost the increasing quality of amateur sumo in Japan, which managed to produce Onosato. To this extent, I have the feeling that Japan finally managed to circle around their hemorrhage of teenager recruits with a solid set of college-educated talents.

18 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Only that he's 3 years older on becoming yokozuna. At Onosato's age, Takanohana had already won 17 yusho and 9 jun-yusho.

Takanohana entered Ozumo at 15, also forcing his brother to drop out from High School to join him. Onosato used that time to get an education and rack up several youth amateur titles. From his Wiki page, his university career alone includes 13 amateur sumo titles. He certainly has much more than that, including the 2016 Junior High School Hakuho Cup (his only pre-college trophy mentioned in the page, but clearly not the only one).

I'm not challenging that Takanohana and Onosato had different trajectories - it is evident. But the (most understandable) expectations put on them as shin-yokozuna are much the same. That was my point.

14 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Nishonoseki got a very lucky strike with Onosato, no doubt, but doesn't every graduate ms td come fully formed? Onosato is the first since Wajima to get a rope, though. 

I personally think that the 52 years passed between Wajima and Onosato (1973-2025) are more than anything a signal that amateur sumo in Japan finally caught up with Ozumo in terms of general competition. I cannot fathom otherwise how previous amateur and collegiate sumo champions before Onosato kept failing to dominate the Ozumo world. My only answer is that they were brought up with different levels of competitions, and that collegiate wrestlers have been until recently too old to fully catch up with Ozumo's level while entering as young adults. Now - I'm not belittling Onosato's talent, but I doubt that he was pushed to train so hard to reach those levels of dominance only after he entered Ozumo at 23 in 2023.

1 minute ago, hakutorizakura said:

No way, he would have been a proper yokozuna if not because of the injury. He was better than Kakuryu or Terunofuji, so probably could have had a similar level of achievement if not better.

I didn't mean that they gifted him the rank, far from that. I plenty concur that he would have won more had him not injured himself that way shortly after his promotion. However, Kisenosato had a particularly slow way up, becoming Ozeki in 2011 at 25 years old, and Yokozuna in 2017 at 30 years old. His case is different from Terunofuji, who already won a yusho in 2015 and was lining up two jun-yusho (13-2P, 12-3J) in 2017 before his knees gave up. He was also in Ozumo since the age of 15, meaning that he was battering himself up throughout half of his life at that point. Given those premises, I don't know if he would have remained healthy long enough to rack up 6-10 yusho like the other two. Even in case, asking a 30-years-old to save Japanese Ozumo by himself would have been quite the tall order. That's what I meant when I talked about a "consolation prize". Onosato can be reasonably regarded as the next dominant yokozuna, like Takanohana in 1994. Asking the same to Kisenosato would have been delusional.