Asanoyama's COVID violation suspension and comeback

[Seiyashi 4,109]

9 minutes ago, yohcun said:

20 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Indeed.. We had Touki and Kyokutenhou suspended for driving infractions as well. Touki hit a woman, IIRC and I usually don't RC.

Toki even killed the woman in question. It still gobsmacks me that he had a career after that.

There are accidents and then there is manslaughter with a car. I can't quickly find the details of the case, but if the pedestrian had been jaywalking round a blind turn or something similar, where you could reasonably attribute a lot of blame on the pedestrian notwithstanding her death, then you'd write this off as an unfortunate incident rather than going all "oh he killed someone he has to pay". As sad as it sounds, plenty of people die in car accidents every day and not every person responsible for the accident needs to go to jail, despite the dire consequences.

[Seiyashi 4,109]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Asanoyama seems to me like someone with weak mental resolve. He's not Abi. I don't see him falling from grace and working his way up from Juryo or whatever. He's out. The only thing that can save him is if he only gets a very light suspension for a basho or two, which I don't see happening, but who knows. Otherwise. In- tie.

His mental resolve to work back up from presumably makushita notwithstanding, does it save his career if he offers to resign? I know there aren't that many cases to judge, but there might be a slim hope that if he volunteers to retire rather than it being forced on him, the board might yet grudgingly accept this show of contrition as a mitigating factor, and hand him a heavy penalty instead of accepting the resignation Abi-style. Whereas if he left it up to the board, they'd have no option between penalising him heavily or recommending his resignation outright, because saying "give us your resignation papers so we can hold it as a sword over your head" sounds daft.

[Ichimawashi 573]

Do we know for sure that the original questioning was clear enough that there could be no misunderstanding?  For example, if they said to Asanoyama "there is a report by this tabloid, I'm sure you have heard the rumours, is it all true?"  Now "no" is the truthful answer unless ALL of it is true.  Or perhaps they asked him if he had "broken the covid rules recently" and there was a misunderstanding about the scope of "recently."  Sure, it's grasping at straws, but if it is at all a possible factor, it might give everyone a way out.  It wouldn't be the first time some story had broken and a hasty effort to squelch it had resulted in some questioning that was not precise enough.  Obviously Asanoyama needs to accept fault and place himself at the mercy of the elders, but a hint of a misunderstanding may save him from the end of a promising career.

It may also be time for the NSK to take over for the banzuke-making guidelines in determining where a demotion for cause takes a rikishi found guilty.  It shouldn't be 'we want him to start over from [some level], how many basho will he need to miss for that to happen?'  Just say 'you're suspended for this many, and you return here.'

[Seiyashi 4,109]

2 minutes ago, Ichimawashi said:

Do we know for sure that the original questioning was clear enough that there could be no misunderstanding?  For example, if they said to Asanoyama "there is a report by this tabloid, I'm sure you have heard the rumours, is it all true?"  Now "no" is the truthful answer unless ALL of it is true.  Or perhaps they asked him if he had "broken the covid rules recently" and there was a misunderstanding about the scope of "recently."  Sure, it's grasping at straws, but if it is at all a possible factor, it might give everyone a way out.  It wouldn't be the first time some story had broken and a hasty effort to squelch it had resulted in some questioning that was not precise enough.  Obviously Asanoyama needs to accept fault and place himself at the mercy of the elders, but a hint of a misunderstanding may save him from the end of a promising career.

Alternatively, they could have just asked "Is any of it true" and Asanoyama would still be caught. Somehow I don't think Shibatayama and Oguruma are going to care too much about precision; their intent was clear and if anything, Asanoyama trying to grammar nazi his way out of it claiming a misunderstanding is just going to make it worse for himself.

[Asashosakari 20,290]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

Six were suspended at that time, which is not that many in the grand scheme of things. Among them was former Ozeki Miyabiyama; that may be the closest we get to an Ozeki suspended.

It was quite a few more than six.

[Gospodin 271]

I cannot imagine they let him off the hook after lying, that would set an unacceptable precedent. He has sealed his own fate, imho.

[Asashosakari 20,290]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

There are accidents and then there is manslaughter with a car. I can't quickly find the details of the case, but if the pedestrian had been jaywalking round a blind turn or something similar, where you could reasonably attribute a lot of blame on the pedestrian notwithstanding her death, then you'd write this off as an unfortunate incident rather than going all "oh he killed someone he has to pay". As sad as it sounds, plenty of people die in car accidents every day and not every person responsible for the accident needs to go to jail, despite the dire consequences.

The victim of the accident was crossing an intersection at night despite a red light.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Seiyashi 4,109]

9 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

The victim of the accident was crossing an intersection at night despite a red light.

I assume you mean the lights were red against her and Toki would have had the right of way. In which case yeah, that's almost entirely on the pedestrian - even worse if she was wearing dark clothes at night.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

45 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

It was quite a few more than six.

Okay, I meant six Makuuchi guys. My bad.

[WAKATAKE 2,759]

6 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

A friend posed an interesting question. 

If Asanoyama were to intai, would he be able to take the Takasago stock due to ex-Asashio IV's deal with Asasekiryu? Can't be right? Because either Asanoyama hasn't accumulated enough basho and the NSK isn't gonna let him land a cushy job after his transgression. 

If it really were through, ex-Asanowaka would be pissing himself laughing. Totally dodged a bullet there.  

I think we are beyond thinking about if he is even allowed to have a kabu at this point

[Amamaniac 2,092]

So Asanoyama didn't put up much of a fight against Takayasu.  Takayasu pretty much knew that that would be the case and didn't even bother to put any tapping on... 

To bad Asanoyama didn't win more bouts before he got reported for breaking the Covid guidelines.  

He was one short of his KK, meaning that he is officially kadoban for July.  A three-tournament suspension will mean Ozeki in July, Sekiwake in September, and Maegashira in September.  But it looks to me that by the time he returns in November, he will have dropped out of the Top Division.  

If he had just gotten one more win before the forced kyujo, then he would have been able to stay in the Top Division for his return-of-shame basho in November.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that.

[Seiyashi 4,109]

6 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

So Asanoyama didn't put up much of a fight against Takayasu.  Takayasu pretty much knew that that would be the case and didn't even bother to put any tapping on... 

To bad Asanoyama didn't win more bouts before he got reported for breaking the Covid guidelines.  

He was one short of his KK, meaning that he is officially kadoban for July.  A three-tournament suspension will mean Ozeki in July, Sekiwake in September, and Maegashira in September.  But it looks to me that by the time he returns in November, he will have dropped out of the Top Division.  

If he had just gotten one more win before the forced kyujo, then he would have been able to stay in the Top Division for his return-of-shame basho in November.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I think the main problem is the assumption he's only in for 4. If he even gets off with a suspension, my money'll be on him being in for way more, dropping him out of the sekitori ranks at least.

The general tenor on the scandal thread is maybe 75% intai and 25% severe suspension. It wasn't this bad until it came out that Asanoyama had initially denied - i.e. lied about - the allegations when questioned by Shibatayama and Oguruma the day before the allegations came out.

[Naganoyama 6,043]

He brought this on himself, remember.  I have been a fan of Asanoyama but I'm not sure why you wish he could be kachi-koshi before being punished.

[Seiyashi 4,109]

Some small comfort for Asanoyama: in this NHK article recapping the scandal, the president of his Toyama supporters' club has expressed understanding and acceptance regarding his apology, and is willing to continue to support him given his contrition and acceptance of the gravity of what he did. https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20210520/k10013040821000.html

[Ichimawashi 573]

2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Alternatively, they could have just asked "Is any of it true" and Asanoyama would still be caught. Somehow I don't think Shibatayama and Oguruma are going to care too much about precision; their intent was clear and if anything, Asanoyama trying to grammar nazi his way out of it claiming a misunderstanding is just going to make it worse for himself.

Trouble is, we just don't know yet what exactly was said, and the main point of contention seems to be that "he lied!" is far worse than "he broke the rules".  If Asanoyama has some explanation that makes sense and still admits he was clearly in the wrong, intai to me seems harsh just because he is a few rungs on the ladder higher than Abi was.  The penalty can certainly be greater than Abi's punishment for transgressing while Ozeki, but not having hit the hostess over the head with a remote control, it seems intai is an overbid.

I actually think that we're going to look back on the covid period in sports and see that some athletes handled the new conditions better than others, and championships probably were won and lost based on this unknown factor.  Nobody signed a top player in 2019 thinking "he'll be great if there is a pandemic and we have to live out of a hotel room for six months."  Where I live we are simply writing off the 2020 season for most of the local pro sports teams (one league, the CFL, has completely shut down) and 2021 may continue this for the MLS and NHL franchises.  Sumo so far has done quite well, minimizing the impact on a year-round competition and handling outbreaks better than other sports have.  But I don't think it will help the sport's reputation to force a retirement on someone whose transgression is serious but just not in the same league as violence or gambling.

[Seiyashi 4,109]

32 minutes ago, Ichimawashi said:

But I don't think it will help the sport's reputation to force a retirement on someone whose transgression is serious but just not in the same league as violence or gambling.

The COVID breaches alone he might have gotten away with, even taking into account his rank; it could have been dicey but there would have been a decent chance. The precedents so far show that only repeated cases (i.e. not necessary numerous violations brought to light, but separate groups of violations) like Tokitsuumi's case will be punished harshly. If he had come clean he would probably have been given the chance to reform had he wanted it (cf. Kintamayama's statement about whether or not Asanoyama has the strength to climb back from makushita).

Also, while it looks like that to outsiders, sumo is much more than a sport. It's not a coincidence that kyujo is more prevalent nowadays than it was previously; the mentality really was (and in some places still is) you go on the dohyo unless you're too injured to even walk, never mind if you go MK in the process. So while championship, ozeki, and yokozuna runs make for great results-based narratives, performance is systemically seen as really rather secondary in the grand scheme of things for the vast majority of rikishi involved in ozumo, and you take the lumps of your circumstances, COVID-related or otherwise. If you can't deal with the stress of the circumstances COVID forces on you, tough luck; go down and let the others who can take over your rank.

32 minutes ago, Ichimawashi said:

the main point of contention seems to be that "he lied!" is far worse than "he broke the rules".

Whatever was said to Shibatayama and Oguruma, they came out and said 2 hours after the tabloid broke the story that "there was no fact in the story"/"it's factless". How do you want to explain that misunderstanding away? As it is I suspect Shibatayama and Oguruma chose their words very carefully because they're surely aware that they have no independent corroboration and are taking Asanoyama's words at face value. Whatever was said to Shibatayama and Oguruma, that led them to come out in defence of Asanoyama to say there was no truth in the reports, and then they ended up with egg on their face after Asanoyama admitted to it 4-5 hours later.

Sure, depending on what was or was not said, it may or may not be a lie by the strict dictionary definition of the word. But the end result is undeniable: Asanoyama gave the impression that there was no basis to the story initially, and wound up embarrassing his superiors. Thankfully we are in saner times, but might I just point out that this is Japan where up till the Meiji Restoration, it was seen as traditionally customary to commit suicide for disgracing your lord or clan. Even now, CEOs and heads of companies will resign to take the blame for troubles that may or may not have been their fault out of responsibility to the corporation as a whole. "Face", or social appearances, are very important, and if I were Shibatayama and Oguruma, I would be very mad at Asanoyama for that about turn. That's the reason why I said Asanoyama was going to make it worse for himself if he tried to plead a technicality - the result is that the NSK is embarrassed and he is the proximate cause; trying to escape that blame is going to be seen as cowardly and compounding his original sin even further.

32 minutes ago, Ichimawashi said:

just because he is a few rungs on the ladder higher than Abi was

The "rungs on the ladder" metaphor fails to quite encapsulate the difference between yokozuna/ozeki and everyone else. These ranks are virtually exalted or taboo, jokes about lacklustre ozeki performances aside. It's not for no reason that these are the ranks given the greatest privilege and trappings of privilege (e.g. parking spaces, purple-fringed mawashi, attendants, deference, the exclusive right to jun-toshiyori abolished for all other ranks).

With great privilege comes great responsibility; they are in return expected to uphold the strictest standards of behaviour expected of all rikishi. It's no defence to say that they're human like the rest of us. In fact, for yokozuna, that argument doesn't wash in traditional sumo thought because they're seen as the embodiment of a divine spirit, a kami, which imbues them with the power, strength, and grace that empowers their exploits on the dohyo. A yokozuna dohyo-iri carries serious spiritual weight. In an environment without yokozuna, that burden and obligation to uphold standards falls on the ozeki. If the ozeki do not uphold those standards, you can't expect the other rikishi to.

So the argument that "he's the same as a lower-ranked rikishi" is the wrong way round. In East Asian thinking, value is not placed on the powers that be being like the everyday man. The powers that be are meant to be above everyone else in the hierarchy as paragons to be emulated. The thinking behind handing him a stiff penalty because of his rank is "if he does that he's telling everyone they can do that". No one gives two hoots about Ryuden because he's not a top-ranker; his moral failings will be lumped in with his lack of relative success. But Asanoyama? He ought to have known better given his responsibilities and therefore his transgression cannot be as easily forgiven as Abi's to begin with, even disregarding his embarrassment of the NSK.

FWIW, Harumafuji would probably have gotten away with the violence had he not been yokozuna. Takanoiwa and Takanofuji both got away with one-offs and were forced to retire only after repeat violations. Harumafuji felt he had to go because he had failed to live up to the standards that he as a yokozuna was expected to set for other rikishi especially in light of the no-violence campaign.

Basically, the higher up in the hierarchy you go, the less scope you have for making mistakes. We can have pity for Asanoyama as a person for being under the stress of expectation, which I suspect was part of the reason why he resorted to this nonsense in the first place, but as for what he represents within the world of sumo, his position is almost if not already untenable. The only thing left for him to do is to offer to resign, which paradoxically may just save his career should he wish it.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Ichimawashi 573]

Nicely written.  I think you've almost convinced me, liberal westerner than I am, that intai is the only choice here.  :)

[Seiyashi 4,109]

1 minute ago, Ichimawashi said:

Nicely written.  I think you've almost convinced me, liberal westerner than I am, that intai is the only choice here.  :)

I'd like to see him get a second chance too. I think he can still satisfy everyone's honour by offering to resign citing extreme contrition, and the NSK can use the Abi precedent to save him if no other damning details come out. But any more missteps and it's really going to be game over.

[Kotogouryuu 143]

Caught doing something that has already been punished and lying about it.

If he's only suspended (for what I suspect is more than 3 basho), at his age and injury history, he has a chance to come back to the top, but that takes a bit more spine that he has demonstrated. Remains to be seen.

[Benihana 1,974]

Too bad he can't avoid punishment by offering a phalanx of his left pinkie. It would make things so easy... 

[Amamaniac 2,092]

29 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I think the main problem is the assumption he's only in for 4. If he even gets off with a suspension, my money'll be on him being in for way more, dropping him out of the sekitori ranks at least.

The general tenor on the scandal thread is maybe 75% intai and 25% severe suspension. It wasn't this bad until it came out that Asanoyama had initially denied - i.e. lied about - the allegations when questioned by Shibatayama and Oguruma the day before the allegations came out.

Indeed, those are valid fears.  The Kyokai has a difficult decision ahead of them: (1) treat Asanoyama the same way they treated Abi – a three tournament suspension, or (2) hand out a more severe suspension to show their abject intolerance for lying.

The issue in my mind is do they really want to risk losing Asanoyama?  Too severe a suspension could well lead to an intai as you and many have suggested.  Asanoyama is only 27 years old.  He has invested five years in professional sumo, and several more years before that devoted to turning pro. Essentially, oozumo is his cash cow, and it won't be easy to walk away from the only thing he knows.  There seem to be many fans (myself included) who see/saw him as a future Yokozuna candidate, and a Japanese one at that.

Even though Terunofuji looks destined to become Yokozuna #73, his days are numbered.  So what will the Kyokai be left with?  No disrespect to Takakeisho, but he doesn't inspire Yokozuna awe in me.  And Shodai is much more doubtful when it comes to guessing who deserves to be at the top of the banzuke.  

The problem with Asanoyama is that if he is caught in a lie, his future hinkaku dignity will be tainted.

This is yet another of many dilemmas that oozumo has had to face in recent years.  At least those involved have had plenty of practice, but I'm sure that everyone in the NSK doesn't feel that way.

[Seiyashi 4,109]

8 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

The problem with Asanoyama is that if he is caught in a lie, his future hinkaku dignity will be tainted.

Very well put, and this is, I think, the core of it really. It's not easy to demonstrate reform for extracurricular wrongdoings because it's not exactly something you do on the dohyo, so there's always going to be that niggling doubt even before Asanoyama's rope career even starts, if he even stays in ozumo at all. And it may or may not practically result in ozeki being the lid on Asanoyama's advancement.

I think the best way out of this really is for Takasago and Nishikijima to persuade Asanoyama that he must submit his papers. After Abi's case, that's no longer the terminal move that it sounds like; it becomes a bit more like a sashichigae by the tate-gyoji where he volunteers to resign and is usually politely rebuffed unless he's royally screwed up repeatedly.

The board now has the justification to keep him, which is that he has shown great remorse/contrition etcetcetc and we don't want to do anything permanent, so we will hold on to his papers and hand him a suspension penalty a little more severe than Abi's; if he has really reformed let him devote himself to sumo blah blah blah. So they've now got him on a short leash, but Asanoyama gets to do penance, the board looks merciful, and everyone walks away happy because Asanoyama's readiness to sacrifice his career in remorse has been shown. I know it's pretty similar to what Abi himself did at a lower rank, but hopefully no one looks too closely that the outrage over an ozeki doing it hasn't been appropriately propitiated.

But if he doesn't, then I think the board's hand is forced. A suspension is going to look like favouritism unless it's 1.5x+ that of Abi's and there'll be worse talk of "oh they went easy on him because next Japanese yokozuna" and all that. And the "holding on to your papers" option isn't available if the board is the one making the first move, so it'll be intai.

Of course whether Asanoyama has the mental strength to work his way back up is the other question even after all this. If he can, he'll be much better for it, but that's a big if to begin with.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Mightyduck 67]

When I commented earlier the lying aspect hadn't come out. I'm 99% sure he's intai now. 

The only hope he's got is if the two unidentified men he was reportedly with were his oyakata and the chair of the supporters club, or hakkaku and shibatayama. Even then it might not be enough. 

I get sumo is not like other sports and there's a lot of obligation to do hospitality with sponsors, but it does always amaze me when a high level sportsman was out drinking/partying right before a tournament/match/fight. You wouldn't go out clubbing the night before an exam or work presentation!

 

Also naive in the extreme to think that the fine upstanding business people running an after-hours hostess bar wouldn't tip the tabloids off.

 

All in all though, it's terrible timing, if the story broke next week, he would likely not have lied and might have salvaged his career. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Mightyduck

[Seiyashi 4,109]

13 minutes ago, Mightyduck said:

All in all though, it's terrible timing, if the story broke next week, he would likely not have lied and might have salvaged his career. 

That's actually also quite true. I wonder if the tabloid was deliberately tactical in breaking it just before his KK, although I wouldn't go as far as to accuse them of doing so with the intent of forcing Asanoyama to lie.

[Shinobi Steve 146]

I understand sumo is more than a sport and that's one of the things I love about it. As an Asanoyama fan, I hope beyond hope he won't have to retire. I know that's very unlikely, but I can still hope. To be completely honest, I don't have much of an issue with him going to a club. He shouldn't have lied, but he did and people deserve forgiveness and redemption. Famous athletes frequently do much much worse than going out to a club and spending time with dancers. Again though, I understand sumo is more than a sport and he made the decision to break the rules.