For Natsu Tochinoshin is from Georgia

[Akinomaki 41,873]

So far in Japan Georgia is called Grusia, like in Russian, and Tochinoshin was always announced as gurujia-shusshin. Ready for the Natsu-basho the name changes to Georgia also in Japan, like it is called in most Western countries (we'll have to wait if the NSK pages also change, to know if he will be announced like that on the dohyo). Tochinoshin is happy about it.
He had always introduced himself as "from Georgia", but Japanese might have thought he's from the US. (I guess they'll always have to add Georgia-koku and Georgia-shu to get it clear which is meant).

Thus so far Tochinoshin has not been approached by Georgia coffee, since the Japanese don't connect him to the land, although he loves to drink it and would be a fine CM character.
Now he hopes for kensho from them.
http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1462681.html

Edited April 17, 2015 by Akinomaki

[Kintamayama 47,429]

So far in Japan Georgia is called Grusia, like in Russian, and Tochinoshin was always announced as gurujia-shusshin. Ready for the Natsu-basho the name changes to Georgia also in Japan, like it is called in most Western countries (we'll have to wait if the NSK pages also change, to know if he will announced like that on the dohyo). Tochinoshin is happy about it.

He had always introduced himself as "from Georgia", but Japanese might have thought he's from the US. (I guess they'll always have to add Georgia-koku and Georgia-shu to get it clear which is meant).

Gagamaru as well? Otherwise it will be strange..

[Asashosakari 20,315]

Gagamaru as well? Otherwise it will be strange..

Of course. This is a government-mandated change, on request of the Georgian government.

[Kintamayama 47,429]

Gagamaru as well? Otherwise it will be strange..

Of course. This is a government-mandated change, on request of the Georgian government.

We had that here five years ago.

[Asameshimae 220]

This article shed a little light for me, but it seems the name is better off being “Sakartvelo”

http://rt.com/news/prime-time/georgia-wants-different-name/

[Gurowake 4,158]

Well, I think places like Cote D'Ivoire have really gone too far in asking that the international community use the name that they use themselves, when it's merely a French translation of what we normally would call the country. The internal name for the ethnic group is not what they are known by at all in the International Community. China doesn't insist people call it "The Middle Kingdom" or Zhongguo. Germany has like 5 different bases of names in various languages, and they don't care at all either that people use exonyms. Georgia wants to shed as much of the forced Russification as possible, and part of that is to get countries to use a pronunciation of the name that isn't based on the Slavic Russian pronunciation of St. George's name but on the western Romance and Germanic pronunciation. Japan clearly gets the Russian pronunciation natively due to its proximity to Russia as opposed to western powers, but given that Japanese has no real relation to Slavic languages, there's no reason why they should go with the Russian pronunciation over the western one which is preferred when the meaning of the word is exactly the same. It's not like Germany where "Allemagne" and "Deutschland" mean completely different things if you take away the country that they're referencing; both pronunciations of Georgia are based on St. George's name, and unless your language has a(n) historical linguistic basis for pronouncing it in the Slavic manner, they'd prefer otherwise.

I do recall hearing Georgia as a shusshin being pronounced "gurujia" or something like that before, and wondered at the time why it wasn't "jorujia".

[torquato 1,075]

Sorry for being 'off-topic'...

Germany has like 5 different bases of names in various languages,

Let's see. "Krauts", "Huns", and "Piefke". Mmhh... but what are the other 2? :-D

Germany where "Allemagne" and "Deutschland"

Well, seriously. These 3 instantly come into mind, but what are the other 2 you are thinking of?

[Asashosakari 20,315]

Well, seriously. These 3 instantly come into mind, but what are the other 2 you are thinking of?

A quick survey of Wikipedia's "Languages" sidebar on the Germany article yields:

Polish: Niemcy / Czech: Německo / Slovak: Nemecko / Slovenian: Nemčija / Croatian: Njemačka / Hungarian: Németország

Finnish: Saksa / Estonian: Saksamaa

Edit: And naturally, once again it turns out there's even a full Wikipedia article about it. ;-)

On-topic edit: There's one for Georgia, too.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Jejima 1,498]

China doesn't insist people call it "The Middle Kingdom" or Zhongguo.

True, but they are not happy with the term 'Mandarin Chinese' for the common language. It is now called 'Putonghua' in 'English' in China, Hong Kong and Macau. I think they are wanting to make this change 'international English' too.

[Andreas21 221]

Germany has like 5 different bases of names in various languages, and they don't care at all either that people use exonyms.

Although we should object the slavonic one whose origin is basically offensive.

But there is no political reason behind it as is the case for Georgia/Grusinia.

[Manekineko 200]

Although we should object the slavonic one whose origin is basically offensive.

For the curious: "dumb" ("nijem" in Croatian), in the original meaning of one who can't speak (deaf-n-dumb), not one who's stupid.

AFAIK, official Croatian name for Georgia is still Gruzija. I wonder when/if we'll change it.

Edit and OT: Croatia is one of those countries almost no-one refers to by its original name (since it's such a tongue-breaker: Hrvatska). Exceptions are other Slavic countries and our close neighbours and occasional overlords: Hungary (Horvátország) and Turkey (Hırvatistan). We return the favour by calling Hungary by its own original name (Mađarska, Magyarország).

Edited April 20, 2015 by Manekineko

[LeoD 17]

Let's see. "Krauts", "Huns", and "Piefke". Mmhh... but what are the other 2? :-D

Mof[fen] and Boche, of course. (Sigh...)

[shimodahito 336]

this is a fascinating thread.... Peking vs Beijing.... Cologne vs Koln.... Munich vs Munchen..... Zaire/\zdere/Congo.... Edo vs Tokyo has eventually found a common international nameplace.. so many references to the same place in our small world...

..

[Kasutera 258]

There are still people in Japan (mostly older people, obviously) who still use "Shina" to refer to China, which everyone else agrees is offensive/pejorative, so I wonder how quickly they'll adapt to Georgia over Gruziya.

[Gurowake 4,158]

I'm not sure what's so offensive about there. In English we still use the term Sino-American relations to describe interactions between China and the US; if that form was offensive to anyone it would probably be changed. In French, the "ch" cluster (present in their word for China, "Chine", knowledge which comes to me from plenty of things that say "Fabrique(?) en Chine" right under "Made in China") is always pronounced as the "sh" is in English; The French word for Czech-whatever starts with Tch, because that's how they spell things pronounced that way, so if they wanted the same sound to start their name for China as English does, they certain could do it. Unless there's something particular in the history of Japan that you're referring to, I don't quite understand why it would be offensive.

[Kasutera 258]

I'm not sure what's so offensive about there. In English we still use the term Sino-American relations to describe interactions between China and the US; if that form was offensive to anyone it would probably be changed. In French, the "ch" cluster (present in their word for China, "Chine", knowledge which comes to me from plenty of things that say "Fabrique(?) en Chine" right under "Made in China") is always pronounced as the "sh" is in English; The French word for Czech-whatever starts with Tch, because that's how they spell things pronounced that way, so if they wanted the same sound to start their name for China as English does, they certain could do it. Unless there's something particular in the history of Japan that you're referring to, I don't quite understand why it would be offensive.

I am referring specifically to the context of the Japanese word "Shina" as opposed to "Chuugoku" or associated derivatives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shina_%28word%29

Now back to sumo before I get penalized for being OT: I wonder if the Korean war had any similar effects on Korean-born sumo wrestlers, being changed from "Chosen" to "Kankoku" or vice-versa post-war. Then again, I think most zainichi Koreans around that time, at least in sumo, probably hid their Korean backgrounds, like Rikidozan did at least.

[torquato 1,075]

this is a fascinating thread.... Peking vs Beijing.... Cologne vs Koln.... Munich vs Munchen..... Zaire/\zdere/Congo.... Edo vs Tokyo has eventually found a common international nameplace.. so many references to the same place in our small world...

..

My prefered example for a (German) place name is the City of 'Aachen' and its French counterpart 'Aix-la-Chapelle'. And don't forget to add the Italian 'Monaco' to the 'München' row.

As far as I can see there are 2 reasons for different/ changing place names in general.

A) Old historical differences due to changes in settlement and development in languages over the course of historical times.

B) New naming based on a political agenda by purpose.

Edo and Tokyo is a B case, as much as e.g. Leningrad/ St. Petersburg or Chemnitz/Karl-Marx-Stadt, or in a case of a country Burma/Birma vs. Myanmar.

Different names and changing names seem to be more frequent as one probably thinks of at first sight.

I agree, it's really an interesting topic, but alas, perhaps too off-topic...

[orandashoho 720]

Off-Topic -- Bilingual Place Names in Wales

There was a long time during which all the road signs in Wales had English names, and those names were sometimes totally unrelated to the original Welsh place names.

A few examples:

• Aberteifi ("mouth of the Teifi river") ==> Cardigan
• Trallwng ("the marshy or sinking land") ==> Welshpool
• Abertawe ("mouth of the river Tawe") ==> Swansea

The Welsh language was repressed in other ways as well. People could only get education in English, all official business was conducted only in English, and the native speaker without English proficiency was treated like a second-rate citizen.

Normally, when a language is repressed for centuries and the original language ceases to have economic worth, it is supplanted by the invading language and disappears.

But it did not disappear in Wales. People continued to love and honour their poets and although the language became a minority language after a lot of English speakers moved to Wales, the Welsh language could not be stamped out.

Finally, under the pressure of mass English immigration that drove locals out of houses they could no longer afford, protests and acts of civil obedience exploded. Remember those English names on the road signs? One of those acts was the campaign to force the government to put the original Welsh names back on the signs. The road signs were green. If a sign only had an English name, people would go to it at night and paint it green, obliterating the name.

Today all the signs are bilingual.

[Itachi 396]

this is a fascinating thread.... Peking vs Beijing.... Cologne vs Koln.... Munich vs Munchen..... Zaire/\zdere/Congo.... Edo vs Tokyo has eventually found a common international nameplace.. so many references to the same place in our small world...

..

This is part of the 'off topic' element of this thread.

It seems to me that many places in the world have multiple names depending on linguistic, political, and historical relationships.

Perhaps my country (Canada) is one of the few exceptions in this regard. Probably this is due to it's newness and lack of significant change since formation as a nation.

Probably there are many different names for parts of the country in the indigenous languages but it's unlikely any of those would have encompassed the larger part of it, unlike similar colonial nations like New Zealand and Australia which surely have aboriginal names (Aotearoa for NZ).

[Akinomaki 41,873]

At the chogaiki-basho today Tochinoshin and Gagamaru for the first time were announced as Georgia-shusshin. Tochinoshin is afraid the fans are used to the old name and will think "from where?", Gagamaru is happy. Both will be announced like that at the Natsu-basho, but the banzuke will still show Grusia, because it was written before April 22nd, when the name change became official.

http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20150425/sum15042518510002-n1.html

Edit: the NSK rikishi pages now have Georgia ジョージア in Japanese, without -koku

http://www.sumo.or.jp/sumo_data/rikishi/profile?id=2895

http://www.sumo.or.jp/sumo_data/rikishi/profile?id=2868

Edited April 25, 2015 by Akinomaki