Natsu Basho 2012 - Discussion

[Naganoyama 6,024]

Kotooshu and Kisenosato had a great bout today. Fairly messy but hugely exciting. More like that please!

[Igordemorais 79]

God I hope Kisenosato doesnt win

[Kaioshoryu 68]

God I hope Kisenosato doesnt win

Why?

[Igordemorais 79]

I think he is so generic. I find his sumo is generic. I find him generic and boring. He is great, but he is.... like the best vanilla ice cream in the world. It's the best, but it's still just vanilla.

Kotoshogiku has power, Baruto has size and charisma, Harumafuji is extremely technical, Kakuryu has a fast, crisp sumo.

Kisenosato is just......bland.

Plus his tachi-ai games are starting to piss everybody off.

[Kuroyama 715]

So you think he doesn't deserve to win because of that?

Besides, vanilla is awesome.

[Manekineko 200]

Hakuho was also vanilla when Asashoryu was chocolate (or stracciatella, or whatever). Kisenosato actually looked commanding in several bouts this basho. I wouldn't mind if he were the one to take the first Japanese yusho in X years...

[Kaioshoryu 68]

I think he is so generic. I find his sumo is generic. I find him generic and boring. He is great, but he is.... like the best vanilla ice cream in the world. It's the best, but it's still just vanilla.

Kotoshogiku has power, Baruto has size and charisma, Harumafuji is extremely technical, Kakuryu has a fast, crisp sumo.

Kisenosato is just......bland.

Plus his tachi-ai games are starting to piss everybody off.

Agree with you on the tachi-ai games, I find them stupid too.

Other than that, it could be said that Kisenosato tries very hard to look intimidating and menacing, see the extra shove on Kotoshogiku after Kise had done a matta. I quite like it, I think he has an aura about him, like he is a throwback to a long gone era, if you know what I mean.

[Morty 1,518]

God I hope Kisenosato doesnt win

I've been lurking on this forum for a couple of years but signed up to reply to this comment.

It seems to me the best thing that could possibly happen to sumo is to have Kise (or Giku) yusho this basho, then the next one, and make Yokozuna. Sumo is intrinsically Japanese and without support in Japan, from Japanese people, it is dead in the water. More than anything else it needs strong, Japanese rikishi to be successful at the top of the sport. In the wake of the yaocho scandal to have those rikishi be known gachinko guys like Kise is even more important to sumo's survival.

I absolutely want Kise to win this basho, not because I like him (even though I do), but because I want sumo to survive, be successful and thrive. To do that it needs support from a Japanese audience and the best way to get that, is to have successful and popular, Japanese rikishi. It has been over ten years since there has been a Japanese Yokozuna and the popularity of sumo in Japan has plummeted in that time. That's why a Kise win would be fantastic for sumo. It might help it still be here in ten years.

[Asashosakari 20,211]

I think he is so generic. I find his sumo is generic. I find him generic and boring. He is great, but he is.... like the best vanilla ice cream in the world. It's the best, but it's still just vanilla.

I better not ask you for your opinion on Kyokutenho, then. ;-)

[yorikiried by fate 2,038]

He's of course an eternal last slice of pizza in the box.

[Bugman 384]

God I hope Kisenosato doesnt win

I've been lurking on this forum for a couple of years but signed up to reply to this comment.

It seems to me the best thing that could possibly happen to sumo is to have Kise (or Giku) yusho this basho, then the next one, and make Yokozuna. Sumo is intrinsically Japanese and without support in Japan, from Japanese people, it is dead in the water. More than anything else it needs strong, Japanese rikishi to be successful at the top of the sport. In the wake of the yaocho scandal to have those rikishi be known gachinko guys like Kise is even more important to sumo's survival.

I absolutely want Kise to win this basho, not because I like him (even though I do), but because I want sumo to survive, be successful and thrive. To do that it needs support from a Japanese audience and the best way to get that, is to have successful and popular, Japanese rikishi. It has been over ten years since there has been a Japanese Yokozuna and the popularity of sumo in Japan has plummeted in that time. That's why a Kise win would be fantastic for sumo. It might help it still be here in ten years.

I like Kisenosato's Sumo, his commanding/domineering style when he fights well is satisfying to watch, so as a rikishi absolutely i enjoy his bouts, but i have to admit that throat-shove on giku cemented my dislike of him, for my own part i would much prefer giku to make it to Yokozuna if you are correct in saying that a Japanese Yokozuna is what is required to invigorate Sumo.

Besides, vanilla is awesome.

I have to agree with that :)

Edited May 15, 2012 by Bugman

[Igordemorais 79]

If Kisenosato wins it will be great for sumo, that much is true, and in that sense I do hope he wins. But if Giku was in the running I'd be rooting for him cause I absolutely love his sumo.

But personally as far as Kise goes..... bleh.

I like the feeling when a guy steps into the ring and you just know you're about to witness beautiful sumo, aesthetic sumo. Harumafuji is king in this. Baruto also. Takanoyama., Kaio`s arm breakers, recently Goeido has shown some serious badass sumo. Hakuho moves so fast, he does a visibly incredible game of balance.

Kisenosato to me is like.. "oh look, the fat guy pushed the other guy out. That's nice."

I know, I know, there's more to it. But I was asked why I root against him and I'm telling you how I feel.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Igordemorais

[yorikiried by fate 2,038]

My personal problem with Kisenosato is that he didn't visibly improve beyond the standard "getting more experienced" thing over the last couple of years. If he would figure out how to avoid giving away freebie grips, for example, that I would call noteworthy.

As a no-nonsense character, though, he is quite valuable. Would he be a "black" Yokozuna? Would anyone inside Japan care?

Wait, I hate when posts end with questions. Done.

[Asashosakari 20,211]

It seems to me the best thing that could possibly happen to sumo is to have Kise (or Giku) yusho this basho, then the next one, and make Yokozuna. Sumo is intrinsically Japanese and without support in Japan, from Japanese people, it is dead in the water. More than anything else it needs strong, Japanese rikishi to be successful at the top of the sport. In the wake of the yaocho scandal to have those rikishi be known gachinko guys like Kise is even more important to sumo's survival.

As a no-nonsense character, though, he is quite valuable. Would he be a "black" Yokozuna? Would anyone inside Japan care?

I was wondering the same thing after Morty's comment. I suppose that means they need Kise as the black-hat Japanese yokozuna and Giku as the white-hat one. ;-)

[Peeter 15]

I was wondering the same thing after Morty's comment. I suppose that means they need Kise as the black-hat Japanese yokozuna and Giku as the white-hat one. ;-)

... and Baruto with no hat brings them ( Giku & Kise ) out of his grandfathers hat, by need! B-) ( with one hand! )

[Morty 1,518]

Staying with theme of what is good for sumo, I couldn't think of a better combo than two Japanese Yokozunas (say for example, Kise and Giku), in a long running rivalry of who is better. It doesn't need to black hat / white hat, just two guys in a contest of who is better, spurring each other on to greater performances.

[Andreas21 219]

Staying with theme of what is good for sumo, I couldn't think of a better combo than two Japanese Yokozunas in a long running rivalry of who is better.

That'd be true if it were worthy Yokozuna, the best Rikishi in the world. If not, I'm doubtful.

They could have it in an instant. Just sack all foreign born Rikishi from the sport, alas, Kise and Giku remain on the top. Would that start to attract visitors in Japan? I don't know Japanese culture so well, but I would think the opposite.

If they lower the standards for Japanese promotions (more obviously), make (more) silly requests for foreigners, evict the best foreign wrestler once in a while (more often). Would that attract more visitors? I don't know.

In my opinion Japanese people are sensible beings and would rate Sumo quality above nationality. There was not a major decline of visitors in the times of rivalry of Akebono-Musashimaru or the times of Asashory-Hakuho. The big decline came when it became apparent that cheating was involved. I can't blame the Japanese visitors for staying away, indeed. Seems completely sensible to me.

[Bugman 384]

Staying with theme of what is good for sumo, I couldn't think of a better combo than two Japanese Yokozunas in a long running rivalry of who is better.

That'd be true if it were worthy Yokozuna, the best Rikishi in the world. If not, I'm doubtful.

They could have it in an instant. Just sack all foreign born Rikishi from the sport, alas, Kise and Giku remain on the top. Would that start to attract visitors in Japan? I don't know Japanese culture so well, but I would think the opposite.

If they lower the standards for Japanese promotions (more obviously), make (more) silly requests for foreigners, evict the best foreign wrestler once in a while (more often). Would that attract more visitors? I don't know.

In my opinion Japanese people are sensible beings and would rate Sumo quality above nationality. There was not a major decline of visitors in the times of rivalry of Akebono-Musashimaru or the times of Asashory-Hakuho. The big decline came when it became apparent that cheating was involved. I can't blame the Japanese visitors for staying away, indeed. Seems completely sensible to me.

You know you make a very interesting point there, i had agreed for the most part with Morty, i was willing to believe that it is mostly an issue of wanting Japanese rikishi to cheer for, but your post has made me think again, i still agree with Morty that Japanese rikishi doing well would bring in bigger crowds, but your post made me realise how big an effect the yaocho scandal must have had, more-so perhaps than the lack of native rikishi in the top ranks, finding out a lot of your excitement and interest as a fan was invested into what later turned out to be a lie must have been deeply disappointing if you weren't already aware of it.

So, more Japanese rikishi doing well and a promise to stamp out yaocho, the way forward perhaps, yes i still agree Kisenosato winning would be very good for the sport, if only kotoshogiku hadn't hurt his knee and foot, he may have held on to the lead.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Bugman

[Andonishiki 171]

John Lennon: 'Imagine there's no countries'

[Vikanohara 171]

Yeah, why can't we cheer for people instead of nationalities ?

Though if I'm allowed to compare to our national sport cyclo-cross (which is winter cycling in muddy and icy circumstances), this only became amazingly popular in our country since Belgians have been dominating it. With sometimes even 8 Belgians in top 10 of a world championship. As a result of it, outside Belgium the interest has been declining. I'm pretty sure once cyclists from other nationalities start to take over again, the popularity in Belgium will slowly decrease again. So for some reason, the average fan likes to cheer for blokes of his own country/region. Though the media covering the sport play their role in all this as well, of course. After an important cyclo-cross weekend, Belgian tabloids spend like 2 full pages on it on front pages of the sports section. Before that, it has already been covered live on television and a few minutes are spent on it in the news. They even try to bring rivalry between several competitors to spicen things up. The moment the media start to care less, the public will start to let go as well. As most people still tend to eat what's been served instead of searching after their own meals.

[Morty 1,518]

I never said that I wanted foreign rikishi out, nor that I wanted Japanese rikishi to be favoured over foreign born. What I said was that one (or more) Japanese rikishi at the top of the sport would be good for it. I would like them to get there fair and square - that's why I suggested that a gachinko rikishi like Kise would be good for sumo.

And it isn't just about the number of spectators for the sport within Japan, it is also about the demographic. The majority of the (Japanese) audience are elderly. The couple of times I've been to a basho the audience has been made up of older Japanese and younger foreign tourists. Sumo needs to attract younger Japanese to its audience. It seems to me that a strong Japanese Yokozuna may be able to do that.

Finally, my original point stands. Sumo is a Japanese sport and whether we foreigners might like to spend our time poring over the results, the reality is that it lives and dies based on Japanese support. It needs people in Japan to support it far more than it does foreigners who follow it on the internet. Strong Japanese rikishi can only help that local support.

[Bugman 384]

I never said that I wanted foreign rikishi out, nor that I wanted Japanese rikishi to be favoured over foreign born. What I said was that one (or more) Japanese rikishi at the top of the sport would be good for it. I would like them to get there fair and square - that's why I suggested that a gachinko rikishi like Kise would be good for sumo.

And it isn't just about the number of spectators for the sport within Japan, it is also about the demographic. The majority of the (Japanese) audience are elderly. The couple of times I've been to a basho the audience has been made up of older Japanese and younger foreign tourists. Sumo needs to attract younger Japanese to its audience. It seems to me that a strong Japanese Yokozuna may be able to do that.

Finally, my original point stands. Sumo is a Japanese sport and whether we foreigners might like to spend our time poring over the results, the reality is that it lives and dies based on Japanese support. It needs people in Japan to support it far more than it does foreigners who follow it on the internet. Strong Japanese rikishi can only help that local support.

In your opinion what sort of an impact (if any) did the yaocho scandal have on viewers and new people becoming interested in Sumo? was it a major upset that really damaged the sport by driving people away, or were they already pretty much aware that matches were being thrown, and if so, can the lack of younger fans in Japan really all be placed at the door of Japanese rikishi not doing well?

Personally i think there must be more factors involved, when you think about the sheer amount of choice that a high standard of living in Japan offers, maybe the Japanese youth feel Sumo is uncool compared to whatever their friends are into? countries around the world always have that problem, with old traditions mainly being guarded and supported by the older generation for the most part, i'm in agreement with you that Japanese rikishi doing well would be good for the sport, but would that alone be close to the full answer? i don't know.

Just thinking out loud hehe.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Bugman

[Asashosakari 20,211]

In your opinion what sort of an impact (if any) did the yaocho scandal have on viewers and new people becoming interested in Sumo? was it a major upset that really damaged the sport, or were people already pretty much aware that matches were being thrown, and if so, can the lack of younger fans in japan really all be placed at the door of Japanese rikishi not doing well?

In my impression sumo's audience traditionally skews old during regular business, and only gets younger during boom phases. It hasn't had one of those in the last 12-15 years, so there we are. In any case, from eyeballing the audience numbers over the years, they've been on a very gentle decline ever since the torch passed from Takanohana and Musashimaru to Asashoryu in 2003 (not Shoryu's fault, without him it probably would have been worse), with occasional upticks - 2005 was pretty good when Asashoryu demolished the record books with his 84-6 annual record, and the last two years of Asa/Hak as concurrent yokozuna (2008/09) were also decent. So basically what you'd call long-term stagnation. The yaocho scandal seems to have suddenly knocked about 25% off the audience numbers in all arenas, however, so that was the business equivalent of a massive natural disaster. (It didn't help that an actual massive natural disaster hit Japan at the same time...a number of people probably still have higher priorities than finding their way back into sumo fandom.)

Personally i think there must be more factors involved, when you think about the sheer amount of choice that a high standard of living in Japan offers, maybe the Japanese youth feel Sumo is uncool compared to whatever their friends are into?

There's that, yeah. But various uncool things have managed to overcome that problem, including sumo at various times in its history, so that's essentially down to finding that one "hook" that will make sumo cool again. A strong Japanese yokozuna is probably the best bet, but it's hard to say that it's guaranteed to work. IMO, a strong and steady rivalry is more important. Asashoryu and Hakuho could have been as Japanese as they come during their stints as sole yokozuna, but when you're finishing every basho three wins ahead of the nearest competitor, it just doesn't make for much of an audience draw. (Heck, even Taiho had that problem in his time.)

Edited May 16, 2012 by Asashosakari

[Bugman 384]

(It didn't help that an actual massive natural disaster hit Japan at the same time...a number of people probably still have higher priorities than finding their way back into sumo fandom.)

That's a very good point, one i stupidly forgot to think about, Japan has been through a very tough time and it's natural that a sport no matter how traditional isn't going to be the number one thing on people's minds, i just hope Sumo is always there for the future.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Bugman

[Morty 1,518]

In my impression sumo's audience traditionally skews old during regular business, and only gets younger during boom phases. It hasn't had one of those in the last 12-15 years, so there we are. In any case, from eyeballing the audience numbers over the years, they've been on a very gentle decline ever since the torch passed from Takanohana and Musashimaru to Asashoryu in 2003 (not Shoryu's fault, without him it probably would have been worse), with occasional upticks - 2005 was pretty good when Asashoryu demolished the record books with his 84-6 annual record, and the last two years of Asa/Hak as concurrent yokozuna (2008/09) were also decent. So basically what you'd call long-term stagnation.

The long term stagnation things seems right to me. I'd be interested to know how much of the loss in Japanese interest has been made up by foreign tourists attending bashos. The audience that attends bashos would once have been 100% Japanese. Now a significant percentage of the audience is made up of foreign tourists. Basically I'm wondering if a loss in local interest has been countered by tourist attendance in the past 15 or so years? Sumo is sold as part of the package to western tourists and has this disguised a greater fall in Japanese interest than has been recognised?