Asashosakari 20,272 Posted September 28, 2007 Many thanks, Josh. I think it's safe to say that Tokitsukaze is toast. It sounds to me like Kitanoumi pretty much hung him out to dry during that press conference, even if he never actually levelled any accusations at him. Q: Do you believe "special treatment" is keiko, and not bullying/hazing?A: I believe it's wrong to go too far. I think it's normal to be a bit harsh starting at jonokuchi, if the rikishi himself is aiming higher, and can handle it. Q: And if he refuses? A: If he refuses, it's not a situation where you can really do keiko. And there's the rub. It's understandable why sumo has a certain reputation for being a "rehabilitation center" for teenagers who have gone off the right path (what with its highly structured lifestyle etc. similar to the aforementioned military schools), but I don't know if that's such a good idea in today's day and age... Sumo seems to be too far along on the way to a professional sport with all the commensurate public attention that it may not be able to afford accepting such (more or less) unwilling deshi anymore. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonosuke 28 Posted September 28, 2007 Josh's translation is perfect but here's my take as I listened in to his interview so it's just another take, no better. Q: What did you talk about with the minister (Minister of Education and Science Kisaburo Tokai and his Deputy)? Kitanumi oyakata: I told him, "I sincerely regret for causing a disturbance." Q: With the discussion in mind, how would the Sumo Kyokai be dealing this issue? K: I received a variety of instructions from the minister. I was told, "Please do your best while making a steady progress on reform." Q: We understand the minister requested to speak to you but why did you decide to come over here personally? K: I heard that he wanted to hear the circumstances, I felt I should come to see him personally . Q: What were the requests you received from the Minister and the Deputy? K: I was told, we should make it clear to the rikishi what the nature of the training can be and how hard it can be. I expressed my personal opinion that since it could all depend on their banzuke ranking as well, we may have to consider the matter thoroughly. Q: Last night the father of Takashi Saito (Tokitaizan) stated that he did not want to see sumo any more. What do you say to him? A: I perfectly understand his feeling as the parent. Q: What did you report on behalf of the Kyokai? A: I basically said, "I apologized for causing so much disturbance and we are reflecting on our action." Q: Since you have not even conducted any internal investigation, what could you have report to them? K: As we had the death, I have apologized related to the fact. Q: Are you saying you have not reported at all on any circumstances dealing with the incident? K: Currently the matter is under investigation so I believe I should not comment any further. Q: Will you be doing an internal investigation independently? K: We have been supplying related information to the police up to now and we will be cooperating with their investigation. Q: In what area do you feel you need to change and how do you want to learn from this incident? K: I believe we need to think hard and deeply reflect so we make sure it won't happen again. Q: How can you reflect without conducting any investigation? K: We cannot deny the fact that a rikishi died. So from that perspective we need to reflect and review ourselves. Q: The question being asked is the nature of Ozumo operations. Don't you believe you cannot expect to make substantial reforms unless you change the nature of heya structure? K: We cannot deny someone died. We need to consider various issues raised and steps we could take from now on. Q: How about reconsidering "Kawaigari" (Taking Care - meaning bullying young recruits to strengthen them ) approach? K: What is the circumstances behind "Kawaigari"? As I mentioned there are different degrees of training based on their banzuke ranking. In a way, once again, we have a different perspective between those with Ozumo experience and those without. Different heya have different ways of doing things but I agree we want to conduct ourselves to narrow the gap from the public perception. Q: Is the problem something unique to Toktisukaze beya or is it the structural problem common to the whole Ozumo? K: Well every heya has a different training method. I am not familiar with how the training is done at Tokitsukaze beya. I don't believe there is that much difference. However I think overdoing it is not right. Q: Did the minister mention anything related to Tokitsukaze beya? K: He said, "Ensure not to repeat a similar incident. It should never happen again". Q: Both the Minister and Deputy indicated that the general public have shown a great deal of interest and concern, but what would you like to say to the public? K: I believe my job is to make sure it would not happen again and respect the fact that a life of person has taken away. Q: Do you think there are other similar bullying incidents? K: I have a heya of my own as you know. In a group environment I think we may get a problem of sort. I am thinking more or less that way. Q: Can you state there is no other similar case? K: I can tell you only about my own heya as I have not grasped the situations at other heya. Q: Don't you believe every heya must face this issue seriously? And the Kyokai to responsively provide the leadership in this area? K: I think each heya has its own training system and method. Q: As you are in the position of integrating all heya operations, what is your policy going to be? K: I feel we need to bring in different people in and consider what the nature of training should be. Q: When you talk about "different people", are you speaking of including "independent third party members"? K: I feel we need to think about the issue now by including third party members. But we must first discuss the matter within the Kyokai as well. Q: What exactly has Tokitsukaze oyakata reported to you? A: Obviously the matter is currently under the investigation so I felt there were things he really does not wish to disclose to us. Q: About the investigation and training sessions. The chairman, only those with sumo experience, can really understand the dividing line. Despite this, you still are not really planning to conduct an internal investigation? K: I believe we need to grasp the full circumstances. Q: The Minister believed if there was any prior incidents of this sort? K: You are talking about the last several years. I feel we would need to produce some type of report on recent situations. Q: So are you saying you will be doing a new internal investigation? K: What I just said is about the last 10 years. For example, under what circumstances. We do have a case where a kid passed away in a hospital. Even the case like this we should properly ascertain the circumstances and make a full report. Q: Do you believe "Kawaigari" (Taking Care) to be a part of training regime or bullying? K: I feel overdoing is not right. But for those who are aiming higher depending on their banzuke ranking and where they could follow, I think it's nothing unusual to have the training far harder than that of a Jonokuchi. Q: Even if the person refused? K: If the person refused, you really cannot do any training. Q: Is it possible to consider "hitting with a beer bottle" is a type of "caning with love"? K: I don't believe that's the case. In fact we don't do it at our heya. Q: When you are speaking about inviting third party members, are you thinking of establishing a formal structure like the Yokozuna Deliberation Committee? K: That's for considering what the nature of training should be and other things like living in a group environment. Things we may want to discuss them further. Q: What disciplinary actions are the Directors considering for Tokitsukaze oyakata at this point? K: I really can't talk about that as it's under investigation. Q: Once the conclusion is reached, will you be handing down the discipline? K: Depending on the result, we may need to consider it. Q: There is a danger of the heya's viability as a going concern. K: Well the time changes you know. But how hard one feels is pretty much depends on the person himself. We should be also aware of it as well before we consider the whole question. However from a point of view those who are developing them, the fundamental fact that they want their recruits to get stronger, that will never change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hananotaka 8 Posted September 28, 2007 Well, I'll say it. Jonosuke's translation is much better than Josh's. I imagine he was working hard on it while Josh was quickly and carelessly doing his. (Holiday feeling...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonosuke 28 Posted September 28, 2007 The chairman of the Kyokai, Kitanoumi oyakata, stated after his meeting with the Minister of Education and Science Tokai that the Kyokai would be ready to start talking to Tokitsukaze oyakata regarding the death of Tokitaizan as early as the next Monday. "If we gain the solid evidence of misconduct and wrong doing, the Kyokai will be prepared to independently hand down its own disciplinary actions. In that case we will be deciding the detail measures at a Directors meeting", Kitanoumi oyakata said. Meanwhile the Minister of Education and Science Tokai directed the Kyokai to meet the following five conditions: 1. In parallel to the police investigation currently underway, the Kyokai should hold its own inquiry 2. The Kyokai will deal appropriate disciplinary measures to the members based on the findings. 3. The Kyokai must formulate a comprehensive policy to prevent further recurrence. 4. The Kyokai is required to re-examine all past similar occurrences and file full reports. 5. The Kyokai is advised to add outside experts to a committee the Kyokai created yesterday to reconsider the ways rikishi are guided, trained and instructed. The timetable is not clearly set but the wording of the Ministry's request is rather harsh and there is an implication that should the Kyokai fail to meet any one of the conditions, they may even face a penalty or their status as a public corporation to be reviewed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilovesumo 12 Posted September 29, 2007 (edited) The timetable is not clearly set but the wording of the Ministry's request is rather harsh and there is an implication that should the Kyokai fail to meet any one of the conditions, they may even face a penalty or their status as a public corporation to be reviewed. Ooooooooooooh.........if that happens......... Kitanoumi tried hard to explain that he can't do or say anything to the people of the Heya now, but he was told to reform the whole Sumo world. I mean, this kawaigari was accepted as part of Sumo, but now It won't be any longer, will it? Where will the borderline be set? Remember the former Tsukebito of Chiyotenzan, he tried to move something cause he was hazed even in spare time. Now many more guys will speak...things will change. Some people must be very frightened. And forgotten is Asashoryu who will come back in January and that was that. Edited September 29, 2007 by ilovesumo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hananotaka 8 Posted September 29, 2007 Kitanoumi tried hard to explain that he can't do or say anything to the people of the Heya now,but he was told to reform the whole Sumo world. I mean, this kawaigari was accepted as part of Sumo, but now It won't be any longer, will it? Where will the borderline be set? Remember the former Tsukebito of Chiyotenzan, he tried to move something cause he was hazed even in spare time. Now many more guys will speak...things will change. Some people must be very frightened. I guarantee that nothing will change regarding "kawaigari". Kitanoumi has already made it clear that he believes there is a distinction between "kawaigari" and "bullying/hazing". They'll keep the former, and attempt to get rid of the latter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 6,401 Posted September 29, 2007 5. The Kyokai is advised to add outside experts to a committee the Kyokai created yesterday to reconsider the ways rikishi are guided, trained and instructed. This is the most intriguing part. I wonder who will join this committee - Billy Blanks? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilovesumo 12 Posted September 29, 2007 Kitanoumi tried hard to explain that he can't do or say anything to the people of the Heya now,but he was told to reform the whole Sumo world. I mean, this kawaigari was accepted as part of Sumo, but now It won't be any longer, will it? Where will the borderline be set? Remember the former Tsukebito of Chiyotenzan, he tried to move something cause he was hazed even in spare time. Now many more guys will speak...things will change. Some people must be very frightened. I guarantee that nothing will change regarding "kawaigari". Kitanoumi has already made it clear that he believes there is a distinction between "kawaigari" and "bullying/hazing". They'll keep the former, and attempt to get rid of the latter. You are right, they can't change kawaigari cause Sumo won't be Sumo, but how about the acceptance of it? I think with this matter now, the acceptance (of people,like parents who would have liked their son to become a Rikishi) will shrink down cause there is no real border for the one being "kawaigaried". It might feel like hazing. I have been to some Keiko sessions it seemed that the kawaigari went too far, becoming hazing. It's also, that the weakest gets his kawaigari lesson again and again-like hazing-it goes on and on. Those weakest are the ones who retire early,most can't stand it and don't become stronger but those are not wanted so who cares... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hananotaka 8 Posted September 29, 2007 In certain endeavors in Japan, including sumo, baseball, and comedy, harsh treatment at the lower levels, including corporal reprisal, is an accepted part of life. Every one knows this going in. The key here is that there's a HUGE difference between getting hit with a stick on the back, legs, and buttocks, and worked so hard in a keiko session that you throw up (kawaigari) and getting hit in the face with a beer bottle from the oyakata, and then being surrounded and getting the shit beat out of you for non-keiko related issues (ijime/bullying/hazing). There's a huge psychological difference. In kawaigari, if your senior singles you out for special treatment, he puts his body on the line. The whole point is that the more he knocks you down, the harder you can, the harder you should come at him. The oyakata whacks you with his stick, you can (you should) use that pain in your keiko. But getting surrounded and beat up? That's just assault and battery. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 6,401 Posted September 29, 2007 One thing we will most likely never know: what did Tokitaizan do to provoke his seniors that much? Like Hananotaka said, it was well beyond the usual harsh treatment. There must have been something about him that didn't go well with anyone in the heya. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonosuke 28 Posted September 29, 2007 (edited) Well there are things that have been intimated by the heya insides but we really cannot confirm these stories as after all the person cannot no longer defend himself against all these accusations. But here's a brief summary once again: We know Tokitaizan was not exactly a model kid. He quit his high school and both his parents were really loss at what they would do to straighten him up. I imagine letting him join Ozumo was like putting him into military and it was a solution. Some insiders said he smoked cigarettes in their washroom and committed thefts in the heya but nothing has been proven and obviously they cannot be excuses for the brutality. We also know that he run away and was brought back to the heya on the day before he died. On that night the oyakata was so upset with his running away again that he hit him with a beer bottle and told the heya's rikishi to take care of him good. On the next morning, he did not come to the training session started at 7:30 AM or so. He was eventually brought down to the training dohyo after 11AM where he was forced to do a Butsukari geiko session for over half an hour when he collapsed. He was then left lying outside for half an hour or more before an ambulance was called. By the time he was taken to a hospital, he was already dead. On the night before Tokitaizan called his father and told him he would be a good boy and pleaded him to come pick him up as he was really scared of elder rikishi at the heya. His father didn't and told him to stick it till the Nagoya basho. [Picture of Kitanoumi oyakata apologizing to the Deputy Minister of Education and Science Matsunami yesterday. Note Matsunami's head as he still has his chon-mage or pony tail] Edited September 29, 2007 by Jonosuke Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_the_mind_ 0 Posted September 29, 2007 Not too much new in the English language publications today...A Japan times editorial: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ed20070928a1.html A Daily Yomiuri article: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070928TDY02006.htm The thing that got me from the DY article was that the cell phone was broken in two, but the memory card from that phone was in pieces. That seems to suggest the memory card was removed and broken intentionally (after the phone was snapped in two), to be sure any possible evidence would not be useable. the more i read about this, the more this sounds like murder and less like assault. all these attempts to hide evidence that would be used against the people involved is getting appauling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 6,401 Posted September 29, 2007 the more i read about this, the more this sounds like murder and less like assault. all these attempts to hide evidence that would be used against the people involved is getting appauling. Isn't it a natural reaction to try to make it look less bad when you did something horrible? I still wouldn't go so far as to call it blatant murder. If they really wanted to kill the boy, there would have been better ways. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonosuke 28 Posted September 29, 2007 Timeline at the heya on the day and a day before Tokitaizan's (Takashi Saito) death: Escape: About 11 AM, June 25 ----------------------------------- Heya's elder rikishi realized Mr. Saito escaped from the heya and started looking for him. Mr. Saito was discovered at a convenience store nearby and brought back to the heya. He was beaten by the heya's rikishi. Lecture: Around 6 PM, June 25 ------------------------------------ As a punishment for his escape, Mr. Saito was forced to sit on his knees behind Toktisukaze oyakata. Mr. Saito asked for forgiveness, "I am sorry, I will renew myself" but heya's elder rikishi scolded him, "Shut up and just sit down". "I've been in the sumo world for dozens of years but I never come across anyone like you with no balls," Tokitsukaze oyakata lectured him. Punishment: Around 7 PM, June 25 ---------------------------------------- The oyakata hit Mr. Saito's body several times with a beer bottle he just finished drinking. Then he hit Mr. Saito's forehead hard and he started bleeding. Then the oyakata orderd several rikishi to continue the punishment, "You guys show him as well". Three rikishi got up and told the oyakata, "We are going to put some guts in him," and took Mr. Saito outside the heya building. They beat Mr. Saito with bare knuckles and metal bat for over half an hour. The the elder rikish took Mr. Saito to the oyakata and forced him to apologize. But the oyakta pushed Mr .Saito away by saying, "Not good enough. How many times did I get fooled by you?" Butsukari Geiko of Death: June 26 ----------------------------------------- Once the morning training session was over around 10 AM, "Kawaigari" (severe beating of Butsukari Geiko) session for Mr. Saito was started. One elder rikishi stood in the dohyo to have Mr. Saito hit him with his body while several others surrounded them. When Mr. Saito fell down, the others ketp kicking him until he got up again. The oyakata was present during the session. The session lasted over an hour. No Care Administered -------------------------- The oyakata left to take a bath and have a meal while he let the rikishi to continue the session. When he returned, he told them, "OK now I'd take over. You guys go and take a bath." Mr. Saito was left with the oyakata alone at the training dohyo. About 20 mintues later, a loud moan was heard from Mr. Saito. The oyakata never attempted to care for Mr. Saito during the time he was alone with Mr. Saito. Death -------- About 12:30 PM, Mr. Saito became unconscious and his whole body became ghastly pale. Several rikishi poured water over him and started talking about ambulance. The oyakata did not act on it. Then they started pouring hot water over him but Mr. Saito did not regain consciousness and finally the oyakata agreed to call an ambulance at 12:50 PM. Mr. Saito was taken to a hospital but he was pronounced dead at 2:10 PM at the hospital. Two days later, June 28 ----------------------------- The oyakata called all rikishi except the heya's sekitori to his own room and ordered them never to reveal him hitting Mr. Saito with a beer bottle or use of a metal bat. Subsequent to this, he gathered the rikishi daily to ask them in detail what they were asked by the Aichi Prefectural Police and what they told them . Then he told them, "We don't want to have this thing going forever so we should have everyone telling them exactly the same story." When a rikishi told him he told the police he used a metal bat, the oyakata became clearly agitated and scolded him, "why did you tell them the real story." It's been reported now that the oyakata aknowledged the use of violence. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yokozuna Hakuho returned from Mongolia and talked briefly about "Kawaigari". "If you start doing 'Kawagari' now, they all run away from your heya. It's not something you should do." "Back when I was in Sandanme and Makushita, I was the receiving end of 'Kawaigari' from senior rikishi several times. It was really tough. In the end I got so breathless, I thought my heart was about to explode." Hakuho said he would resume his training from October 2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Washuyama 662 Posted September 29, 2007 (edited) If those are the facts, it doesn't look too good for Tokitsukaze... I'm not an expert on Japanese law, but sounds like Involuntary Manslaughter along with Conspiracy... Edited September 29, 2007 by Washuyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obinishiki 0 Posted September 30, 2007 Thank you very much for translating and posting all these reports. Aside from tradition and eventual flaws in the whole system, what really saddens me is the eagerness of people to torture or torment someone just because they're told to do so. Now I know everyone of them is in a difficult situation because obeyin your Shisho is a must but I can't help but imagine them all psyched up enjoyin their duty. It reminds me of my military service. Of course we had our own Private Pyle and most of us were tryin to help him wherever we could. Most of the time. But sometimes when a certain Sergeant was on duty he would let him run a "few" extra laps. Then he'd make an effort to bond with us by bitchin about him. And guess what it always worked. The talk would revolve around topics like "sending him to the gas chamber" and such. Now that's not as bad as to beat one up but the more of this kinda talk went on the more we all got psyched up and it was clear to me that the majority of the group would have beaten him up badly. Just a brief order, and there wasn't much at stake let alone their career. Well there's probably no real moral of this story, except that there's no moral. ( I'm sorry, punctuation is is one of my bigger problems with the english language. Besides grammar and orthography ;-) ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sekitori 492 Posted September 30, 2007 I still wouldn't go so far as to call it blatant murder. If they really wanted to kill the boy, there would have been better ways. I don't think it was intentional murder, either. They didn't set out to kill anyone, but the result was still death. As Washuyama stated, it appears to be a case of involuntary manslaughter (or criminally negligent homicide) along with conspiracy. I know nothing about penalties for those offenses in Japanese law but if they are found guilty on both counts, I assume those involved could face fairly long prison sentences. Could someone familiar with the Japanese justice system let us know what the penalties might be? If these people were looking for better ways of killing someone, I doubt if they are smart enough to find any. But they did a very good job of taking things they did know and carrying them to unbelievable extremes. ;-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj 0 Posted September 30, 2007 (edited) very serious crime + conspiracy victims DEATH resulted by intentional continuous (2 days) TORTURE by group of men who are sadistically inspired. Victim was 17 years old. What is the age of the involved rikishi? Question:- - If rikishi did not obey the oyakata's immoral/ criminal/ obviously wrong requests, would it considered to be anti-sumo behaviour? Edited September 30, 2007 by Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shomishuu 0 Posted September 30, 2007 Meanwhile the Minister of Education and Science Tokai directed the Kyokai to meet the following five conditions: 1. In parallel to the police investigation currently underway, the Kyokai should hold its own inquiry 2. The Kyokai will deal appropriate disciplinary measures to the members based on the findings. 3. The Kyokai must formulate a comprehensive policy to prevent further recurrence. 4. The Kyokai is required to re-examine all past similar occurrences and file full reports. 5. The Kyokai is advised to add outside experts to a committee the Kyokai created yesterday to reconsider the ways rikishi are guided, trained and instructed. No. 3 is very interesting because it is the only one with the capacity to enact change, going forward. In the Rijicho's translated press conference, on three occasions he 'fell back' on the statement that each heya operates differently. This would presumably be impacted under a 'comprehensive' policy regarding training methods. However, requiring a policy to be formulated is not the same as requiring it to be enacted. As a matter of fact, it could be formulated without even being wrtten down. Since the other four conditions can be fulfilled without anything really changing for the future, and No. 3 comes with lots of wiggle room, I'm getting the feeling that Tokitukaze Oyakata and possibly a few rikishi will take one for the team, and that will be about it. Except that beer bottles and baseball bats will not be as functional as they used to be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Arunaa Posted September 30, 2007 Re: Jonosuke-san's last post. This Tokitsukaze oyakata is really ... i tried to find more info on him and got this article in Sumo Fan Magazine, issue 6, April 2006 http://www.sumofanmag.com/content/Issue_6/Heya_Peek.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kuroyama 715 Posted September 30, 2007 (edited) Re: Jonosuke-san's last post. This Tokitsukaze oyakata is really ... i tried to find more info on him and got this article in Sumo Fan Magazine, issue 6, April 2006 http://www.sumofanmag.com/content/Issue_6/Heya_Peek.htm That sounds kind of eerie, like they were already in the habit of covering up whatever was going on there even back then. Weird. Edited September 30, 2007 by Kuroyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 47,294 Posted September 30, 2007 A lot of commotion outside Tokitsukaze beya at around 7 PM last night- a police patrol car, an ambulance , a lot of press-and a rumor that something happened to the Oyakata. It turned out to be the result of a prank phone call. Later, some deshi left the heya, took a taxi, and did not talk to the press. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonosuke 28 Posted September 30, 2007 After receiving stern reprimands and warnings from Ministry of Education and Science (which the Kyokai falls under jurisdiction as a public corporation receiving special tax status and other benefits), the Kyokai is finally moving with more urgency. For the first time in their 82 year history since designated as a public corporation, the Kyokai chairman has been summoned by the minister and was ordered to meet certain conditions or risk losing their special privileges. The Kyokai said they would call Tokitsukaze oyakata in to their office to explain circumstances behind how Tokitaizan died on June 26 this year. Prior to Kitanoumi oyakata's meeting with the Minister, he indicated he would leave up to police to investigate but he was told by the Minister to initiate its own probe as quickly as possible. The Kyokai also is holding a special Directors meeting on Monday to discuss disciplinary actions for Tokitsukaze oyakata. It's entirely possible that they would vote to dismiss him from his current position and may even expel him from the Kyokai. Tokitsukaze oyakata previously indicated he would resign if he is charged by the police. "An incident like this should never be permitted to happen. A precious young life was taken away. This is nothing even remotely close to the series of problems related to Asashoryu. It's a horribly serious problem of completely different scope and dimension," Katsuji Ebisawa, chairman of the Yokozuna Deliberation Committee said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_the_mind_ 0 Posted September 30, 2007 (edited) I still wouldn't go so far as to call it blatant murder. If they really wanted to kill the boy, there would have been better ways. I don't think it was intentional murder, either. They didn't set out to kill anyone, but the result was still death. As Washuyama stated, it appears to be a case of involuntary manslaughter (or criminally negligent homicide) along with conspiracy. I know nothing about penalties for those offenses in Japanese law but if they are found guilty on both counts, I assume those involved could face fairly long prison sentences. Could someone familiar with the Japanese justice system let us know what the penalties might be? If these people were looking for better ways of killing someone, I doubt if they are smart enough to find any. But they did a very good job of taking things they did know and carrying them to unbelievable extremes. ;-) well its clearly not 1st degree murder, but 2nd degree murder sounds right to me. which by deffinition this sounds like. although i dont know how it works in japan, but in the US this would be tried as 2nd degree murder. which is how it sounded to me and why i suggested it. ordering people to execute such an action makes it tricky though. he didnt tell them to kill him, but he did nothing to prevent it. ...just my thoughts on the matter. Definition:Murder: Second degree Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter. For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car. from:http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html Edited September 30, 2007 by _the_mind_ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonosuke 28 Posted September 30, 2007 I believe the current situation fits "Bodily Injury Causing Death" - Japan's Criminal Code 205 as there was no actual intent of murder. It has a minimum of two years and up to 15 years in prison. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites