Latest stock exchange news - kabu, Oyakata transfers, etc.

[Asashosakari 20,252]

(Just looking for an excuse to pull this thread back up...)

One scenario discussed is for Toki to take over Furiwake, which is currently on loan to Musashimaru from the retired Asaarashi who was affiliated with the Takasago Ichimon. Musashimaru, belonging to a different ichimon, would then be musical chaired to another loaner kabu, perhaps Kaio's vacant Asakayama.

Toki is now Asakayama Oyakata. Musashimaru is not involved this time. Kaio is loaning his kabu to Toki as his friend reclaims Sanoyama. There will be 110 voters in the Feb. 1 election.

In an extremely coincidental coincidence, the Asakayama kabu had been sitting unused for exactly one year to the day when Toki claimed it yesterday. Remember when it used to look like Kaio was on the verge of retirement nearly every basho? Yeah, me neither.

[madorosumaru 7]

Tamarikido lost to Kitazakura to finish at 1-6 and announced his intai as of this basho. He will be assuming the toshiyori name Araiso, which belongs putatively to Kisenosato. With this move, there will now be 111 votes in the upcoming riji election.

[ilovesumo 12]

On the Kataonami blog (by a koenkai member) I read that Kataonami Oyakata and 楯山 Tateyama Oyakata (former Tamakasuga) swiched names, cause he is taking over the Heya, which had been declared at the Rijikai yesterday. link

[Asashosakari 20,252]

On the Kataonami blog (by a koenkai member) I read that Kataonami Oyakata and 楯山 Tateyama Oyakata (former Tamakasuga) swiched names, cause he is taking over the Heya, which had been declared at the Rijikai yesterday. link

Indeed - thanks for the heads-up. :-P Everything effective today (Feb 4th) according to Nikkan Sports. We're getting quite a number of rather young shisho here now...Tamanoi, Takanohana, Tokitsukaze, Azumazeki, Kataonami and Onoe (for another month) are all under 40, and another handful barely older.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Chiyozakura 163]

On the Kataonami blog (by a koenkai member) I read that Kataonami Oyakata and 楯山 Tateyama Oyakata (former Tamakasuga) swiched names, cause he is taking over the Heya, which had been declared at the Rijikai yesterday. link

That is rather early. Moto-Tamanofuji ist still only 60, so he has nearly five years left. Does he have health problems?

[madorosumaru 7]

On the Kataonami blog (by a koenkai member) I read that Kataonami Oyakata and 楯山 Tateyama Oyakata (former Tamakasuga) swiched names, cause he is taking over the Heya, which had been declared at the Rijikai yesterday. link

That is rather early. Moto-Tamanofuji ist still only 60, so he has nearly five years left. Does he have health problems?

Former Tamanofuji has had diabetes since his rikishi days. Apparently, it has gotten a lot worse with complications in recent years. Tamakasuga was slated to take over Kataonami Beya after his mandatory retirement anyway so they just accelerated the process. They swapped myoseki so former-Tamanofuji is still an oyakata, receiving full salary.

This is like a aging father handing the family business over to his son. He is still around but has made all the arrangements in preparation for the inevitable.

[Pikenoyama 27]

If I am not mistaken, it has been more than two weeks since the retirement of Sendagawa oyakata (10/03/09?). I haven

[Kintamayama 47,232]

If I am not mistaken, it has been more than two weeks since the retirement of Sendagawa oyakata (10/03/09?).

I think it's 10/3/2010.

[Pikenoyama 27]

If I am not mistaken, it has been more than two weeks since the retirement of Sendagawa oyakata (10/03/09?). I haven

[Asashosakari 20,252]

I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere including the Japanese press, but as per the Kyokai's official pages Tamanoi-oyakata (ex-Tochiazuma) was promoted to official iin status sometime during February.

That also answers our long-running question whether time spent in a 3/5-year privilege toshiyori is "wasted" for career advancement - it isn't. In a related note, I just realized that former ozeki and yokozuna seem to be receiving some type of "bonus" seniority. The oyakata list at the Kyokai is normally sorted by seniority (specifically the date the first kabu was taken, excluding the abolished 1/2-year jun-toshiyori), but Fujishima (ex-Musoyama) just moved from below Yamahibiki (ex-Ganyu) to above him in the latest update, as though he has somehow accumulated more service time in the same time frame. And sure enough, similar patterns also show up among older oyakata:

1983.05 - Oyama (Daihi, M2)

1984.05 - Kiriyama (Kurosegawa, K)

1984.11 - Matsuchiyama (Banryuyama, K)

1987.07 - Matsugane (Wakashimazu, O)

1986.09 - Minezaki (Misugiiso, M2)

1987.01 - Arashio (Oyutaka, K)

1991.07 - Shibatayama (Onokuni, Y)

1988.01 - Shikihide (Oshio, K)

1988.01 - Dekiyama (Dewanohana, S)

1988.09 - Kitajin (Kirinji, S)

1992.01 - Isegahama (Asahifuji, Y)

1989.01 - Kumagatani (Chikubayama, M13)

1989.07 - Chiganoura (Masudayama, S)

etc.

No idea if this is just for show, or with tangible benefits. And I'm not sure what exactly is driving it - Musoyama (2004.11) is now between two oyakata from 2000.09 and 2001.12, whereas Takanonami (2004.05) is still further down between two guys from 2003.05 and 2003.11.

[Tamanaogijima 775]

Solve one mystery, and five other ones turn up...

I'm intrigued by the positions of Fujishima (Musoyama) and Otowayama (Takanonami) as well. Originally I though Fujishima too high -- maybe some bonus points for his shimpan duties -- but looking at your list it looks like Otowayama is way too deep. As some of us rememeber there has been a slight kerfuffle surrounding the kabu certificates of Otowayama and others. Maybe he has collected some malus points because of that.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Tamanaogijima

[Asashosakari 20,252]

Originally I though Fujishima too high -- maybe some bonus points for his shimpan duties -- but looking at your list it looks like Otowayama is way too deep.

Depends. If it's a blanket ~3 year bonus, then Otowayama is listed too low, but if it's a gradual process as one might surmise from Otowayama (a little less than +1 year after 5 years) and Isegahama and Shibatayama (a little over +3 years after 18 years), then it's Fujishima who sticks out. There are some other anomalities, not all of which I'm able to explain right away. Don't have the spreadsheet with me right now, so I'll get back to this later today.

But if it's a gradual boost, then Otowayama should probably pass the next guy relatively soon, while Fujishima should be stuck in the current spot for a while because his "seniority counter" is now in a very large gap between two oyakata. Or maybe it is in fact job-based somehow and there are bonuses for filling particular positions. Of course, Matsugane has been a shimpan for seemingly forever and his bonus appears to be smaller than those of Shibatayama and Isegahama, so it's probably more complicated...

[Asashosakari 20,252]

Well, here goes. First off, everybody above those who I already listed yesterday:

1983.01 Magaki (Wakanohana, Y)

1977.05 Asahiyama (Daiju, O)

1978.01 Ikazuchi (Haguroiwa, K)

1979.05 Kimigahama (Kitaseumi, S)

1976.01 Urakaze (Teruzakura, M7)

1982.01 Takekuma (Kurohimeyama, S)

1985.11 Oguruma (Kotokaze, O)

1986.01 Naruto (Takanosato, Y)

1979.05 Kiyomigata (Dairyugawa, M1)

1979.11 Iwatomo (Tochiisami, M7)

1981.05 Minato (Yutakayama, K)

1981.11 Tateyama (Tamanofuji, S)

and onward with 1983.05 Oyama et al.

So, pretty significant boosts also for Oguruma, Naruto and Magaki, though the latter may be listed at the very top in part as recognition of the fact that he's an ex-riji, who are normally ranked at least yakuin taigu and don't show up in the big iin list at all. Urakaze and Takekuma are the more interesting deviations, even shifted in opposite directions from their natural rankings.

I'll skip the entire 1990s following Chiganoura - there are no former ozeki and yokozuna in there anyway, and all 17 oyakata are exactly in the order one would expect. Now, the young remainder:

2000.08 Takasaki (Oginohana, M2)

2000.08 Katsunoura (Kitakachidoki, M3)

2000.09 Nishikido (Mitoizumi, S)

2004.11 Fujishima (Musoyama, O)

2001.12 Yamahibiki (Ganyu, M1)

2002.09 Tatsutagawa (Minatofuji, M2)

2002.09 Shikoroyama (Terao, S)

2002.11 Kise (Higonoumi, M1)

2003.03 Fujigane (Daizen, K)

2003.05 Takadagawa (Akinoshima, S)

2004.05 Otowayama (Takanonami, O)

2003.11 Edagawa (Aogiyama, M1)

2004.01 Nakadachi (Oginishiki, K)

2004.05 Onoe (Hamanoshima, K)

2003.02 Tamagaki (Tomonohana, K)

1995.04 Shiratama (Kototsubaki, M3)

2002.09 Otake (Takatoriki, S)

2005.04 Wakamatsu (Asanowaka, M1)

2005.05 Kabutoyama (Oikari, M11)

2005.08 Yamawake (Wakanoyama, K)

2005.11 Sadogatake (Kotonowaka, S)

2007.05 Tamanoi (Tochiazuma, O)

Interestingly the deviators are bunched together here, too. Otake perhaps is still getting dinged for his Roho-induced demotion; he only moved back up from shunin to iin last month. For the other two I have no explanation...in fact, in Shiratama's case I'm actually wondering if it's a clerical error and he's somehow sorted in at "April, Heisei 17" instead of "April, Heisei 7".

It's still some time away, but I already wonder where Takasago will be listed once his own banishment to shunin is over in two years.

[Tamanaogijima 775]

1) Magaki

That's right, the former Wakanohana II probably still benefits from being an ex-riji. Intriguingly, Minato (Yutakayama, K) as ex-fukuriji does not benefit from this "rule" -- he is added to the iin list where he'd belong to given his retirement date.

2) Otake

Being demoted for Roho's drug consumption former Takatoriki was moved from between Tatsutagawa and Shikoroyama down to between Tochiazuma and Miyagino -- who seems to be missing in your list, btw. At that time there was the border between iintaigu and regular toshiyori. Tochiazuma and Musashimaru moved on for different reasons, of course, but the rest is still instact:

2004.05 Onoe (Hamanoshima, K)

2003.02 Tamagaki (Tomonohana, K)

1995.04 Shiratama (Kototsubaki, M3)

----- border shunin/iintaigu -----

2003.11 Musashimaru (5-year grace period, Y)

2007.05 Tochiazuma (3-year grace period, O)

----- border iintaigu/regular toshiyori -----

2002.09 Otake (Takatoriki, S)

2004.08 Miyagino (Kanechika, J2)

2005.04 Wakamatsu (Asanowaka, M1)

2005.05 Kabutoyama (Oikari, M11)

3) Shiratama

That's probably no error but the result of the official acknowlegdement of kabu renting. Negative side effect of the acknowledgement was that effective August 2004 every change to a borrowed kabu moved the borrower into the second part of the Toshiyori list with all the other borrowers. (This applied only to changes; not-changers could count on grandfather rulings.)

Former Kototsubaki borrowed Shiratama-kabu from 1995.04 to 2003.09, then Yamawake until 08.2005, then again Shiratama until 08.2007 (the last change placed him in the borrowers' section). Effective Aki Banzuke 2007 he was listed as owner (i.e. moved up to the last regular toshiyori spot). Shiratama-kabu needn't to be kept free any more as Kotomitsuki was promoted to ozeki and thus could definitely make it via a 3-year grace period to the Hidenoyama-kabu (freeded 2009.07) from there on.

Maybe they turned a blind eye to him and counted the period from 08.2005 to 08.2007 already as ownership phase. His position would not be exactly correct but with a little "blind eye deduction"...

4) Tamagaki

Former Tomonohana's (regular) toshiyori career began 2006.03 when he took over the Tamagaki share. Until then he had only been juntoshiyori or borrower. But what strikes the eye is that in 2005.04 (his position in the list) he moved from Tatsunami-beya to Tomozuna-beya. Yes, the very same Tomozuna-beya that owns the borrowed Asakayama-kabu. Coincidence? Or has there been a silent (i.e. invisible for the banzuke) agreement on transferring the share temporarily to him for career reasons?

5) Takekuma

The former Kurohimeyama had to rent four different kabu -- the last of them for just a few days -- until he finally made it to Takekuma-kabu in 1988.02 six years after his retirement. The banzuke of May 1984 lists him behind Minatogawa (current Tateyama). So I guess he has been exposed to some sort of slower promotion (one year waiting here, one there) during his borrowing time. Ah, forget it... I have no clue why he is where he is and why he overtook some people.

6) Urakaze

Nothing in the oyakata career statistics of former Teruzakura gives a hint for his position in the list. He assumed the kabu in 1976.01 as owner and did not move anywhere until heyamate Kiriyama set up his own heya in 1995.01. Citing the May 1984 banzuke again I see Tateyama (current Asahiyama), Ikazuchi and Kimigahama listed in the shimpan department as #10, #12 and #17 respectively.* Maybe we've found another evidence for "shimpan bonus points" here. It really looks like it has not been a relegation of Urakaze but an overpromotion of the other three.

* Unfortunately I have no crib to help me where exactly in the iin list the shimpan would have to be placed.

EDIT: Corrected some serious b***s*it...

Edited March 6, 2010 by Tamanaogijima

[Asashosakari 20,252]

Being demoted for Roho's drug consumption former Takatoriki was moved from between Tatsutagawa and Shikoroyama down to between Tochiazuma and Miyagino -- who seems to be missing in your list, btw.

Miyagino's only shunin. :-) IIRC Otake moved back up to shunin prematurely (not at the end of the riji period), at which time he was slotted in differently; he was moved to the top of the shunin list, not just added at the bottom, which of course makes sense since he was indeed the most senior oyakata among the shunin. Actually, perhaps that's the solution here - oyakata are re-slotted according to their retirement dates while they are still toshiyori and shunin, but once they are promoted to iin they stay in whatever spot they were previously, including behind "younger" oyakata if those became iin earlier?

Of course they did it differently with Oguruma just now, but he was an ozeki. Too bad Nishonoseki is a riji, as he would be another non-ozeki with demotion issues in the past... But we might see the principle in action again with Miyagino in two years as he's currently the highest-ranked shunin behind demoted Takasago, but is already behind several younger iin. (Speaking of Miyagino, interesting that he only became shunin this year, not in 2008 when Wakamatsu et al. did...held back for his yaocho tape thingy?) At any rate, that explanation would likely also explain Shiratama via the borrower demotion you mentioned, if we assume that borrower periods don't count for career advancement anymore at all since the 2004 rule change.

3) Shiratama

... Maybe they turned a blind eye to him and counted the period from 08.2005 to 08.2007 already as ownership phase.

Might not matter if my explanation turns out correct. In your changes page, you have "2007 Aug 27 - Shiratama (former Kototsubaki), who loaned this kabu, becomes regular owner as the previous owner died two weeks ago." - what exactly was the change in the oyakata list at the time? (I'm not doubting you, because I recall checking the list and I saw the difference, too; I just don't remember the details anymore. :-)) BTW, do you know who was shunin in 2006-2008?

4) Tamagaki

Former Tomonohana's (regular) toshiyori career began 2006.03 when he took over the Tamagaki share. Until then he had only been juntoshiyori or borrower. But what strikes the eye is that in 2005.04 (his position in the list) he moved from Tatsunami-beya to Tomozuna-beya. Yes, the very same Tomozuna-beya that owns the borrowed Asakayama-kabu. Coincidence? Or has there been a silent (i.e. invisible for the banzuke) agreement on transferring the share temporarily to him for career reasons?

Hmm, that could well be. After all ex-Tomonohana took over the Tamagaki share right when it became available by the predecessor's retirement, so it was likely known that he had the money available to buy his own share soon, when he made that one-year move from Tatsunami to Tomozuna. Quite possible that he was treated as the owner of the Asakayama share for that year, and then Kaio and he quietly switched Asakayama/Tamagaki in 2006.03.

I think we're on the right track in figuring out the more recent irregularities - the older ones are probably due to some rule changes that are lost in the mists of time. (Holiday feeling...)

[Tamanaogijima 775]

Miyagino's only shunin. :-)

Ouch. :-)

Might not matter if my explanation turns out correct. In your changes page, you have "2007 Aug 27 - Shiratama (former Kototsubaki), who loaned this kabu, becomes regular owner as the previous owner died two weeks ago." - what exactly was the change in the oyakata list at the time? (I'm not doubting you, because I recall checking the list and I saw the difference, too; I just don't remember the details anymore. :-)) BTW, do you know who was shunin in 2006-2008?

I've compiled a little list here that should answer the questions. (And no, that's the only years I've got so far ... (On the banzuke...) )

(...) the older ones are probably due to some rule changes that are lost in the mists of time. ;-)

I know, but I don't want to admit our helplessness...

[Jonosuke 28]

If I am not mistaken, it has been more than two weeks since the retirement of Sendagawa oyakata (10/03/09?). I haven

Edited March 9, 2010 by Jonosuke

[Pikenoyama 27]

Well now it's official that Yotsukasa switched from Onogawa to Sendagawa. Did he finally buy it or is it just a loan, we are not sure at this moment. The transfer date was March 8 incidentally.

Thanks a lot for digging this up, Jonosuke. It is one of the less surprising shifts. So Kitazakura can go has gone intai in peace now.

Edit due to news in other posts. (In a state of confusion...)

Edited March 9, 2010 by Pikenoyama

[Asashosakari 20,252]

Well now it's official that Yotsukasa switched from Onogawa to Sendagawa. Did he finally buy it or is it just a loan, we are not sure at this moment.

Both Yotsukasa and Kitazakura are holding their new kabu on loan.

[Kintamayama 47,232]

Takamisakari has acquired the Furiwake kabu last week, currently on loan to ex-Yokozuna Musashimaru. "I'm still an active rikishi so I am concentrating on the dohyo stuff.. Still, I can concentrate even more now and will gambarize thoroughly!!", he said.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 20,252]

Ahh, I forgot about this last month - of course Kitazakura's delayed retirement was only the second-worst kept secret in kabuland. At least they're finally admitting that it's destined for Takamisakari.

[Gusoyama 105]

At least they're finally admitting that it's destined for Takamisakari.

I don't think I can think of a worse oyakata than Robo.

[Yubinhaad 11,969]

I don't think I can think of a worse oyakata than Robo.

Really? I can come up with two without giving it a second's thought - the previous Tokitsukaze, and the current man in charge of paperclips, Takasago.

[Asashosakari 20,252]

I'm inclined to say that Takamisakari likely wouldn't make for a good shisho because he doesn't seem like the type to deal well with all the administrivia that goes into running a stable successfully, but as an associated oyakata? Why not. He's clearly obsessed with sumo as it's one of the few ways for him to "express" himself, as it were, and I wouldn't necessarily rule out his ability to coach well just because he's a bit on the odd side.

Either way, with the youth wave in full effect by the time he's set to retire I'm sure the Kyokai head honchos of 2015 or 2020 will find something worthwhile for him to do if he decides to stick around. Probably not in the press club though, which seems to be the usual first stop for very popular ex-rikishi lately.

[Kintamayama 47,232]

Ajigawa Oyakata (ex-Koubou) who rebelled against his Ichimon and voted for the Takanohana Renegade Brigade last elections, has started the procedure to change his Miyoseki. His initial application was turned down for having a procedural mistake. "I don't know the details, so I cannot comment on this at this time,", said Takanohana Oyakata.

Now, can anyone who understands what I just wrote explain please??

Edit: OK, I got it. He intends to officially leave Tatsunami Ichimon altogether and join the RB (Renegade Brigade), most probably Ootake beya. He'll have to relinquish the Ajigawa name, currently on loan from Aminishiki, and get another kabu, one that somehow belongs to his new outfit. The RB people are saying it's already been done and will be announced soon.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Kintamayama