Asashoryu vs Hakuho day 14 not senshuraku?

[Bataa 0]

Hey listen guys i had a dream last night where asa lost to taikai.In my dream asa fell straight to the ground like he was henkad by taikai.Lets see if my dream comes true tomorrow(very unlikely) but even so you heard it here first (Holiday feeling...)

[Asojima 2,874]

Hey listen guys i had a dream last night where asa lost to taikai.In my dream asa fell straight to the ground like he was henkad by taikai.Lets see if my dream comes true tomorrow(very unlikely) but even so you heard it here first (Holiday feeling...)

You should start being careful about what you drink right before bedtime. (Hugging...)

[Bishonohana 0]

There is a reason why Asa = Lord of the Ring... (Second prize...) In my heart of hearts, I will be cheering for Hakuho to Yusho (Holiday feeling...) , but I'm afraid that Asa will win the Yusho even after losing the first two days. Showing us all that's why he is the LONE YOKOZUNA!! (Hugging...)

Edited March 24, 2007 by Bishonohana

[kaiguma 0]

Hey listen guys i had a dream last night where asa lost to taikai.In my dream asa fell straight to the ground like he was henkad by taikai.Lets see if my dream comes true tomorrow(very unlikely) but even so you heard it here first ;-)

You should start being careful about what you drink right before bedtime. (Shaking head...)

Why now? Absinthe is a fine nightcap!

Not ruling out the freak win by Chiyo, but I don't think he'd dare henka the yokozuna on musbi no ichiban no ichiban with a kettei-sen on the line! Now if Hakuho were to lose to Osh beforehand, tempting . . . but only as a 'yaocho henka.' Most times Asashoryu will still win, even win henka'd.

[21Grams 0]

I'm confussed. What do i know. But geez, thanks to Kintayama, it seems like i'm going to learn something new here.

[Kintamayama 47,193]

I'm confussed. What do i know. But geez, thanks to Kintayama, it seems like i'm going to learn something new here.

Don't listen to me-it's just ramblings of a funny old man..

[James H 0]

The last 6 are like the cuddling after sex. Everything important has already happened.

You win the "James-Hardy-Simile Sho"

Is that an award? Cool... Do I get it, or do I have to give it someone else?

I quite liked that though... although today's last six were more like the argument / one person falling asleep to irritation of the other. Perhaps.

Maybe this simile-sho should be named after someone who is better at simile.

[Yuriyama Ren 1]

Hey listen guys i had a dream last night where asa lost to taikai.In my dream asa fell straight to the ground like he was henkad by taikai.Lets see if my dream comes true tomorrow(very unlikely) but even so you heard it here first :-S

You must have mistaken Hakuho for Chiyotaikai in your dream.. Aside from that.. pretty accurate you were..

[Doitsuyama 1,259]

Hey listen guys i had a dream last night where asa lost to taikai.In my dream asa fell straight to the ground like he was henkad by taikai.Lets see if my dream comes true tomorrow(very unlikely) but even so you heard it here first :-S

You must have mistaken Hakuho for Chiyotaikai in your dream.. Aside from that.. pretty accurate you were..

No, it's obvious he switched Taikai and Asa. Probably he dreamed it correctly, but couldn't believe it.

[Bataa 0]

wow im amazed at myself.(eventhough my whole dream is other way around)

[Jejima 1,488]

??? You dreamt about something that didn't happen....

It is not too surprising that you had a dream about sumo at this time (an exciting Hon-Basho is on, and the Yusho involves two of your compatriots). Maybe you wanted a Hakuho Yusho. Your subconscious did not think that this was too likely if done 'straight' (which is a reasonable point), and so your subconscious came up with a scenario where it could happen.

Chiyotaikai on 7-7 could feasibly henka the Yokozuna, thereby handing Hakuho the Yusho.

Therefore not a premonition (which your dream got wrong - otherwise I could say that I dreamt that John Kerry won the last US election, and was partly right as he was very much involved in it), just wishful dreaming (Dripping sweat...)

[kaiguma 0]

??? You dreamt about something that didn't happen....

It is not too surprising that you had a dream about sumo at this time (an exciting Hon-Basho is on, and the Yusho involves two of your compatriots). Maybe you wanted a Hakuho Yusho. Your subconscious did not think that this was too likely if done 'straight' (which is a reasonable point), and so your subconscious came up with a scenario where it could happen.

Chiyotaikai on 7-7 could feasibly henka the Yokozuna, thereby handing Hakuho the Yusho.

Therefore not a premonition (which your dream got wrong - otherwise I could say that I dreamt that John Kerry won the last US election, and was partly right as he was very much involved in it), just wishful dreaming :-)

Firstly, a premonition does not imply absolute accuracy, and a "vague premonition" is by no means a contradiction. Second, if you're going to shoot someone down categorically, you could be a little more strict with your own argument as well . . .

In the election example, your dream would have to narrow it down to which state determined the election result - Ohio goes for Kerry and he wins. Then the opposite happens. It served your argument to simplify the scenario to a binary function, but it's not exactly a fair way to argue.

It wasn't just a dream about Asashoryu losing to Chiyotaikai, it was the idea of an abject loss by henka. When is the last time Asashoryu lost by henka anyway? When is the last time Chiyotaikai attempted to henka him? Answer to the second I don't know, but the first I think was actually by Hakuho and over a year ago. Suffice it to say that a henka at musubi no ichiban is fairly uncommon, happening maybe once or twice a year. For musubi no ichiban on senshuraku it is downright rare. And for top division yusho kettei-sen it is almost unheard of, am I right?

The presence of the henka in the dream means a lot more than who won, and it also carries symbolic meaning: loss of honor and respect . . . if you put any faith into dream interpretation, as I'm sure you do not. ;-)

So I'll just stop now. (Bye, bye...)

[kaiguma 0]

for top division yusho kettei-sen it is almost unheard of, am I right?

Tochiazuma -V- Chiyotaikai

I said almost.

When was that? Is it archived? And does anyone have another example?

[Doitsuyama 1,259]

for top division yusho kettei-sen it is almost unheard of, am I right?

Tochiazuma -V- Chiyotaikai

I said almost.

When was that? Is it archived? And does anyone have another example?

It was Hatsu 2002 and yes, it is archived.

As for another example, wasn't Dejima vs. Akebono in Nagoya 1999 also a big henka? No movie on Dale's site though.

[Taka 33]

for top division yusho kettei-sen it is almost unheard of, am I right?

Tochiazuma -V- Chiyotaikai

I said almost.

When was that? Is it archived? And does anyone have another example?

As for another example, wasn't Dejima vs. Akebono in Nagoya 1999 also a big henka? No movie on Dale's site though.

It was if I remember correctly.

[Jejima 1,488]

??? You dreamt about something that didn't happen....

It is not too surprising that you had a dream about sumo at this time (an exciting Hon-Basho is on, and the Yusho involves two of your compatriots). Maybe you wanted a Hakuho Yusho. Your subconscious did not think that this was too likely if done 'straight' (which is a reasonable point), and so your subconscious came up with a scenario where it could happen.

Chiyotaikai on 7-7 could feasibly henka the Yokozuna, thereby handing Hakuho the Yusho.

Therefore not a premonition (which your dream got wrong - otherwise I could say that I dreamt that John Kerry won the last US election, and was partly right as he was very much involved in it), just wishful dreaming :-)

Firstly, a premonition does not imply absolute accuracy, and a "vague premonition" is by no means a contradiction. Second, if you're going to shoot someone down categorically, you could be a little more strict with your own argument as well . . .

In the election example, your dream would have to narrow it down to which state determined the election result - Ohio goes for Kerry and he wins. Then the opposite happens. It served your argument to simplify the scenario to a binary function, but it's not exactly a fair way to argue.

It wasn't just a dream about Asashoryu losing to Chiyotaikai, it was the idea of an abject loss by henka. When is the last time Asashoryu lost by henka anyway? When is the last time Chiyotaikai attempted to henka him? Answer to the second I don't know, but the first I think was actually by Hakuho and over a year ago. Suffice it to say that a henka at musubi no ichiban is fairly uncommon, happening maybe once or twice a year. For musubi no ichiban on senshuraku it is downright rare. And for top division yusho kettei-sen it is almost unheard of, am I right?

The presence of the henka in the dream means a lot more than who won, and it also carries symbolic meaning: loss of honor and respect . . . if you put any faith into dream interpretation, as I'm sure you do not. (Sign of approval...)

So I'll just stop now. :-P

Okay....

Let's think for a second....

Let's say for a second that premonitions definitely exist. I think we would all agree that they would be pretty amazing - supernatural in fact. That's cool. But supernatural things are so called because they are outside the normal rationality. Now, if we are going to get one of those supernatural things, we might as well go the whole hog and get it 100% right. A henka going the other way is not 100% correct. In fact it is not even really that close. If you were to have that kind of premonition and bet on it, you would lose everything. Not a very useful premonition..... If you are going to experience a supernatural wotsit, it might as well be correct :-P - Surely it can't be that much more difficult to have Asashoryu doing the henka in the dream (correct) instead of Chiyotaikai (incorrect)?

Okay, now let's think about the dream itself. At this time, with an exciting basho happening, there is a fair chance that one might dream of sumo. I have dreamt of sumo in the past, especially during a basho that has really interested me.

Which is more likely, a dream about sumo under these circumstances, or a faulty supernatural event?

I'm hoping you'll say a dream about sumo.

Now, if you're dreamimg about sumo, what is the likelihood that a henka might be involved? Remember henkas are quite emotive things. Not as likely as just dreaming about sumo, but surely more likely than a supernatural event.

I hope you're getting my drift by now.

It is far more likely (IMO) that someone dreams about a henka (done by the wrong rikishi) under such circumstances (a big sumo fan, from Mongolia, possibly sub-consciously wanting a Hakuuho victory, and dreaming it thanks to a henka from another rikishi) than having a faulty premonition.

It would be much nicer (and I would love it to be true) if the premonition were the mostly likely explanation for Bataa's dream, but I am hoping that you will agree that my suggestion is both more rational and more likely. There is no need to look for supernatural explanations when a more likely rational explanation exists. :-)

[Jonosuke 28]

FWIW.

According to that sensation-ridden, excrement disturber tabloid, Yukan Fuji (and I am not even sure why I am even reading their artcile or bringing it up here but), there was a big argument over the Senshuraku Asashoryu torikumi.

Chief of Juddging Hanaregoyama oyakata wanted to have Hakuho vs Asashoryu bout delayed till the Senshurank while Associate Chief Kokonoe and Mihogaseke wanted to keep the status quo and have Chiyotaikai and Asashoryu on the Senshuraku. The two insisted that the rank should take precedence in all cases. They basically outvoted and overruled Hanaregoyama oyakata.

Apparently Hanaregoyama oyakata was still fuming after the Senshuraku saying the fans' interest should outweigh the ranking.

[Zentoryu 154]

As for another example, wasn't Dejima vs. Akebono in Nagoya 1999 also a big henka? No movie on Dale's site though.

Oh yes... Big time henka by Dejima to beat Akebono in the kettei-sen. I remember it well as it was the first time I'd ever seen something in Sumo that really left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Would have to say that the plan proposed by the associate chiefs' of judging (rank rules) is the riskier. Could have easily blown up in their faces and had the yusho decided on Day 14. But, it didn't. But I wouldn't bank on that solution in every case. The fans' interests should definitely be balanced with rankings. Outweigh every time? If that were the case we could (technically) have no yokozuna in the senshuraku musubi-no-ichiban...

[Hananotaka 8]

As for another example, wasn't Dejima vs. Akebono in Nagoya 1999 also a big henka? No movie on Dale's site though.

Oh yes... Big time henka by Dejima to beat Akebono in the kettei-sen. I remember it well as it was the first time I'd ever seen something in Sumo that really left a bad taste in my mouth.

Yup. I was rooting for Dejima, but really wished he hadn't done that. To the credit of both rikishi, it wasn't one of these "Ole!/Hataki-komi" affairs. Dejima henka'd but Akebono didn't fall down and soon recovered. But he had to change direction, while Dejima had already gotten his vaunted deashi going again. It ended up an oshi-dashi win, and I daresay sat a lot better with the fans than those ridiculous henka's on Sunday.

In the honwari of Takanohana-Musashimaru in the famous 2001 Natsu Basho, Musashimaru did a pseudo-henka. None of this wussy jumping to the side crap; he just stood, opened up to the side a bit, and let Taka's bad knee do the work of making him fall. In the kettei-sen he did a similar half-hearted tachiai, but this time Taka kept his balance and went to win.

[Jakusotsu 6,389]

In the honwari of Takanohana-Musashimaru in the famous 2001 Natsu Basho, Musashimaru did a pseudo-henka. None of this wussy jumping to the side crap; he just stood, opened up to the side a bit, and let Taka's bad knee do the work of making him fall. In the kettei-sen he did a similar half-hearted tachiai, but this time Taka kept his balance and went to win.

Wasn't that mostly because of Maru's concern about Taka's knee, not wanting to injure him even further? Ok, that's speculating motives, not exactly my favourite pastime, but it's evident that Maru didn't give 100% in those bouts, whatever the reason.

[Hananotaka 8]

In the honwari of Takanohana-Musashimaru in the famous 2001 Natsu Basho, Musashimaru did a pseudo-henka. None of this wussy jumping to the side crap; he just stood, opened up to the side a bit, and let Taka's bad knee do the work of making him fall. In the kettei-sen he did a similar half-hearted tachiai, but this time Taka kept his balance and went to win.

Wasn't that mostly because of Maru's concern about Taka's knee, not wanting to injure him even further? Ok, that's speculating motives, not exactly my favourite pastime, but it's evident that Maru didn't give 100% in those bouts, whatever the reason.

That's certainly what I think. I recall making a post to that affect among the rampant yaocho speculation on the SML at the time. Maru was known for being soft-hearted, and somewhat afraid of his own strength. That was often cited as the reason for his long stay at Ozeki. By no means do I think he intentionally lost. I do think he was trying to beat Taka somehow without doing irreparable harm to Taka's knee. I don't think that at all besmirches Taka's fantastic accomplishment. The man threw a 400+ lb man with only one leg to stand on. That may very well be the greatest yusho in the history of sumo...

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Is it too much to ask that people who throw around the Y word would present some (any!) evidence in support of their wild claims? I don't care whether people are serious or not!

Aren't you (Censored...) aware that what you're doing is very objectionable if not downright criminal? Can't you just simply shut up? If not, you're just another Shukan Gendai...

[kaiguma 0]

Let's say for a second that premonitions definitely exist. I think we would all agree that they would be pretty amazing - supernatural in fact. That's cool. But supernatural things are so called because they are outside the normal rationality. Now, if we are going to get one of those supernatural things, we might as well go the whole hog and get it 100% right. A henka going the other way is not 100% correct. In fact it is not even really that close. If you were to have that kind of premonition and bet on it, you would lose everything. Not a very useful premonition..... If you are going to experience a supernatural wotsit, it might as well be correct (Censored...)

It's kind of baffling that you are properly defining the premonition as non-rational, and then subjecting it to a tatally rational value system. i.e., it's only 'useful' if it's 100% correct. It's a very narrow interpretation. If the supernatural exists, there's no reason why we should always expect to understand it and use it to our advantage. As you point out, the "proper definition" implies the exact opposite.

I would see the value of the possible premonition this way: if the irrational dreamstate can bring any clues or worth to us in our rational, conscious state, it would be in the form of symbolism. We shouldn't expect it to rationally "add up" and make perfect sense. In fact, sometimes sybolism works like a mirror and the reflection is what may add up in the end. In the dream, Asashoryu is henka'd and falls straight to the ground. I'd interpret this as a loss of face and a form of humiliation. Now in reality, he is the one that delivers the henka on senshuraku musubi no ichiban. Many feel that this was lacking in dignity, very similiar to loss of face. He is then subjected to the exact same treatment and the result is a form of humiliation. The sum total matches closely the symbolic reading of the dream. If the dream was really a premonition, it's message was "Asa will be defaced and humiliated." The result is: first he disgraces himself and then he is immediately humiliated.

That sounds pretty accurate to me. By henkaing Taikai, Asa lost the kettei-sen bout before it even started. In a way, he henkad himself. How's that for poetic justice? Poetic justice is fueled by irony, and I'd describe irony as an more of an irrational creature than anything else.

[Jejima 1,488]

Am I correct in thinking that you are arguing that it is more likely that Bataa was given a premonition about what was happening the following day, with some clever symbolism which can only really be worked out after the event, rather than he just happened to have a dream about sumo during an exciting basho, about a key bout due to happen the following day?

Or are you arguing that it is equally as likely / likely / quite likely / should not be quickly dismissed without further thought?

If it is the last option, then I agree with you, and I hope you would you agree that I have not lightly dismissed Bataa's dream, rather I have tried to find a more rational explanation which would fit the available facts.

If you are arguing that it is one of the other options, then I would be interested in hearing your opinion...

a) Why it is not possible to accept that someone might simply be dreaming about something that is on their mind (I may dream of taking my driving test the day before it happens) without need to resort to the supernatural

b) Why the premonition was 'coded'.

c) Where the premonition came from.

d) Why he received the premonition.

Please note that I am not dismissing all dreams / all premonitions as being without basis, just that in this particular case (in my opinion) Bataa's dream can be explained simply withouit thinking there is anything mysterious about it.

Let's say for a second that premonitions definitely exist. I think we would all agree that they would be pretty amazing - supernatural in fact. That's cool. But supernatural things are so called because they are outside the normal rationality. Now, if we are going to get one of those supernatural things, we might as well go the whole hog and get it 100% right. A henka going the other way is not 100% correct. In fact it is not even really that close. If you were to have that kind of premonition and bet on it, you would lose everything. Not a very useful premonition..... If you are going to experience a supernatural wotsit, it might as well be correct (Censored...)

It's kind of baffling that you are properly defining the premonition as non-rational, and then subjecting it to a tatally rational value system. i.e., it's only 'useful' if it's 100% correct. It's a very narrow interpretation. If the supernatural exists, there's no reason why we should always expect to understand it and use it to our advantage. As you point out, the "proper definition" implies the exact opposite.

I would see the value of the possible premonition this way: if the irrational dreamstate can bring any clues or worth to us in our rational, conscious state, it would be in the form of symbolism. We shouldn't expect it to rationally "add up" and make perfect sense. In fact, sometimes sybolism works like a mirror and the reflection is what may add up in the end. In the dream, Asashoryu is henka'd and falls straight to the ground. I'd interpret this as a loss of face and a form of humiliation. Now in reality, he is the one that delivers the henka on senshuraku musubi no ichiban. Many feel that this was lacking in dignity, very similiar to loss of face. He is then subjected to the exact same treatment and the result is a form of humiliation. The sum total matches closely the symbolic reading of the dream. If the dream was really a premonition, it's message was "Asa will be defaced and humiliated." The result is: first he disgraces himself and then he is immediately humiliated.

That sounds pretty accurate to me. By henkaing Taikai, Asa lost the kettei-sen bout before it even started. In a way, he henkad himself. How's that for poetic justice? Poetic justice is fueled by irony, and I'd describe irony as an more of an irrational creature than anything else.