Nagoya 2022

[Asashosakari 18,661]

16 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

RE: promotions and fairness. Not all promotions and demotions are equal. If a Maegashira gets unfairly dropped a few Maegashira ranks because he was forced out, that’s not that big an injustice. Their salary won’t change. But a Makushita being denied promotion to Juryo, or Juryo to Makuuchi has meaningful consequences. I’d find a way to correctly promote or demote those who actually deserve it, while limiting the impact to but not freezing the ranks of those were unfortunate to be made to go kyujo. 

That's roughly where I'm at. If taking only the records as actually fought, there fortunately aren't really any rikishi who were denied the opportunity to battle on for a potential divisional promotion or against a looming demotion. It would be different if, say, Daiamami had exited at 5-5-2 rather than 2-8-2, or Oshoma at 3-5 instead of 5-3. Limiting things only to unquestionably "worthy" exchanges should be a workable option here.

The one done by the hardest is arguably Kotonowaka, but then it's been difficult to get promoted to sanyaku with worthy records even under normal circumstances lately. After that, the closest to bad luck are probably Azumaryu (exited 4-6 at J2e) and Daishomaru (exited 3-3 at Ms3w), but those were already severe longshots for credible promotion cases.

[Reonito 1,296]

2 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

The one done by the hardest is arguably Kotonowaka, but then it's been difficult to get promoted to sanyaku with worthy records even under normal circumstances lately. After that, the closest to bad luck are probably Azumaryu (exited 4-6 at J2e) and Daishomaru (exited 3-3 at Ms3w), but those were already severe longshots for credible promotion cases.

Daishomaru in particular wasn't going up with a 4-3, and couldn't even go higher than Ms2, so I would think that if he were given the choice, he would have been very happy with a freeze, rather than rolling the dice on a minimal promotion vs. falling out of the promotion zone altogether.

[Asashosakari 18,661]

12 minutes ago, Reonito said:

Daishomaru in particular wasn't going up with a 4-3, and couldn't even go higher than Ms2, so I would think that if he were given the choice, he would have been very happy with a freeze, rather than rolling the dice on a minimal promotion vs. falling out of the promotion zone altogether.

Ms1w was still in the cards at the time, no? Tomokaze wasn't kachikoshi yet.

[Reonito 1,296]

11 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Ms1w was still in the cards at the time, no? Tomokaze wasn't kachikoshi yet.

At the time, true.

[Seiyashi 4,068]

2 hours ago, Reonito said:

16 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

It seems to always come up but it's not out of the question to put him and Kiribayama as a pair of K2 in the event of his yūshō and Kiribayama getting a KK.

If Kiribayama KK's and they decide to put him at K2 (we don't know if 8-7 would do it under the current regime), they'd pretty much be obliged to do the same for Ichi even at 11-4, much like they did with Asanoyama (10-5 at M2w) and Hokutofuji (9-6 at M1e), since he'll have a much better claim by the numbers.

That's exactly the precedent I was thinking of, where Ichinojō primarily forces the haridashi slot and then Kiribayama with a KK from the highest maegashira rank comes along for the ride. I wonder if freezing Daieishō and causing a bit of a sanyaku logjam as a result will factor into their decision to do so.

Of course if both prospective K2s lose today then it's out of the question. Ichinojō will take M1e which, while an underpromotion with 11-4, isn't entirely unjustified with a relative collapse in the closing stages of the basho.

[Seiyashi 4,068]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

9 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

I stand corrected, SHODAI blew this thing open

It’s always the ones you least expect.

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SHŌDAI INQUISITION!

[Seiyashi 4,068]

9 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

14 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

It feels like Takakeishō should stick to sukuinage, though. He has a hell of a left arm and no reason why slaps or smackdowns can't be converted to sideswipes even if that arm is stuck in his aite's armpit, whereas he just seems to lack the leverage or grip for finer parts of his aite's body. I'm still surprised he managed to beat Hōshōryū of all people (probably the best yotsu in the sanyaku next to Terunofuji) with kotenage.

I believe you've pointed out the flaw in your 1st statement. He beat Hoshoryu with it, and he came close with Wakatakakage today. That's not a dreadful success rate at all. 

I suspect a lot of it is having to work around injuries, but Takakeisho's sumo has evolved noticeably since his promotion. He no longer looks immediately helpless in yotsu, and indeed pulls out the occasional win from yotsu with a limited, but slowly growing repertoire of kimarite. 

That's good, isn't it?

I went back and rewatched their Day 2 bout, and TBH it didn't look like a deliberate plan by Takakeishō to beat Hōshōryū with kotenage the same way he attempted it on Wakatakakage. Hōshōryū, IMO, made the tactical error of attempting oshizumo against Takakeishō, which quickly turned into a hot mess, and then the kimarite was actually called as tsukiotoshi by the commentator and kotenage only later. So it was a lot less clear cut than "Takakeishō went for nage techniques and made it stick against a better opponent". 

I do agree it's evolved, but not quite as much as most people would like it to. And the bout against Wakatakakage just shows that he has a long way to go; whether he can make it or not is debatable. If the problem is biomechanical there's only so much he can do about it.

[Reonito 1,296]

12 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Of course if both prospective K2s lose today then it's out of the question. Ichinojō will take M1e which, while an underpromotion with 11-4, isn't entirely unjustified with a relative collapse in the closing stages of the basho.

What if it's an 11-4 Y?

[nelimw 80]

11 hours ago, Octofuji said:

 Kiribayama is always great to watch, win or lose, and has become my favourite too, as the guys I started following in sumo are fading away.

 

I find myself rooting for him too. If records could reflect effort, he would be high on the list. I could see him getting winning a basho like Tamawashi's 2019 Hastu one day. In fact, Tamawashi is a good comparison to him, both have talent and effort but may only be able to string it together for 15 days once or twice in a career. 

[Katooshu 3,079]

I don't think Takakeisho's sumo has evolved much. One nage technique in 14 days vs an already off balance opponent (he basically tweaked Hosh's arm a bit and didn't full out throw him) is hardly anything. Pulling out the occasional throw or yotsu move, such as the sukuniage over Tochinoshin a few years ago and a tottari vs Kise before that, is something he's done before.

The kotenage attempt last night ended up with Wakatakakage right on his chest, from which point he was quickly grabbed and forced out - it wasn't good execution or a sign of progress in his sumo. Going for the kotenage so quickly played to his opponent's strengths and his own weaknesses - I'd understand it if he had little alternative, but it didn't seem he was in that position to me.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Katooshu

[Seiyashi 4,068]

Just now, Reonito said:

What if it's an 11-4 Y?

Out of a three-man tomoesen? On top of 11-4 being the softest possible Y line. I don't know. It's definitely not an emphatic case for a haridashi slot, not like Daieishō. It wouldn't surprise me to see him at M1 although I think he deserves K2 for it.

[yohcun 393]

3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

It’s always the ones you least expect.

On the contrary, the one thing you can expect from Shodai is that he'll wake up to spoil somebody else.

[Gurowake 3,875]

 

Gino-sho: none

Kanto-Sho: Nishikifuji if he wins (1st)

Shukun-Sho: Ichinojo (3rd)

It looks like you have to read the actual piece of paper in teh picture to get the names of the rikishi winning (or nominated for) sansho rather than them being in the tweet as text.  They did update the main website too though, so that was easier for me.  I referred back to the piece of paper for the condition for Nishikifuji, though it's not like there would be anything else other than winning.

[sumoforever 27]

Re no Gino-sho winner, wonder whether Tobizaru could have won that prize if 1) he'd not had to sit out the last three days due to covid withdrawal, and 2) he'd been able to win 2 of the last 3 bouts to get to double digits. Winning his first eight bouts by different kimarite is really impressive.

[Gurowake 3,875]

11 minutes ago, sumoforever said:

Re no Gino-sho winner, wonder whether Tobizaru could have won that prize if 1) he'd not had to sit out the last three days due to covid withdrawal, and 2) he'd been able to win 2 of the last 3 bouts to get to double digits. Winning his first eight bouts by different kimarite is really impressive.

Number of different kimarite has absolutely nothing to do with the Gino-Sho.  It should be called the "Technical" Prize, not the "Technique" Price.  Unfortunately since they also translated "kimarite" as "winning technique", they created a false equivalence.  "Kimarite" is more literally translated as "deciding hand", or less literally "winning move".

[robnplunder 974]

2 hours ago, Katooshu said:

I don't think Takakeisho's sumo has evolved much.

And I don't believe it will evolve further.  Pro athletics can not significantly improve their technical skills after they reach a certain age.  For the same reason, I don't think Shodai will suddenly acquire a new and better Tachi-hai.  I can only hope he does.  

[Seiyashi 4,068]

27 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

42 minutes ago, sumoforever said:

Re no Gino-sho winner, wonder whether Tobizaru could have won that prize if 1) he'd not had to sit out the last three days due to covid withdrawal, and 2) he'd been able to win 2 of the last 3 bouts to get to double digits. Winning his first eight bouts by different kimarite is really impressive.

Number of different kimarite has absolutely nothing to do with the Gino-Sho.  It should be called the "Technical" Prize, not the "Technique" Price.  Unfortunately since they also translated "kimarite" as "winning technique", they created a false equivalence.  "Kimarite" is more literally translated as "deciding hand", or less literally "winning move".

On another tangent, while Tobizaru has 8 different kimarite, that doesn't reflect his sumo because it's basically throwing things at the opponent and seeing what sticks. Just because he happens to win with it doesn't make him skilful. Even as a fan of Hōshōryū I have to admit his sumo isn't quite as visually or technically impressive as it was on the occasions when he did win the prize. The best technicians this basho are probably Kiribayama and Wakamotoharu, and it's a pity they don't have KK/clear-cut KK that would justify the prize.

More facetiously, Shōdai should be in contention if he wasn't an ōzeki. I still have no idea how the hell he pulled off what he did against Terunofuji.

[Akinomaki 39,533]

Hokutofuji is kyujo, Nishikifuji gets the kantosho by fusensho.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Akinomaki

[Seiyashi 4,068]

Just now, Akinomaki said:

Hokutofuji is kyujo, Nishikifuji gets the kantosho by fusen.

I'm assuming injury, otherwise Hakkaku wouldn't be able to appear in the go-aisatsu.

[Seiyashi 4,068]

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_basho.aspx?r=12646&b=202207

Hokuseihō is going a little like clockwork. He's lost one then won three for this whole basho.

A lot of KKs secured today in jūryō, including Enhō, Kōtokuzan, Atamifuji, and Akua. Kagayaki and Asanowaka failed to win, making them 7-8 and ending any outside hopes at promotion.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Tigerboy1966 1,374]

4 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

A lot of KKs secured today in jūryō, including Enhō, Kōtokuzan, and Atamifuji.

Of the juryo wrestlers who completed 15 days I count 14 KK against 7 MK. As if setting the Aki banzuke wasn't going to be hard enough.

[Seiyashi 4,068]

5 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Of the juryo wrestlers who completed 15 days I count 14 KK against 7 MK. As if setting the Aki banzuke wasn't going to be hard enough.

I don't see a very big issue. Magnitude of movement as important as direction. In the worst case scenario some of the COVID kyūjō rikishi might be nudged around a bit to make things work, such as pushing Kaishō, Azumaryū, and Tōhakuryū down a bit as if they were MK (which given their scores were pretty likely). In their hearts the rikishi who're injured and/or in poor form have no real reason to complain about a more lenient demotion than they otherwise would have gotten.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Akinomaki 39,533]

Okinoumi wasn't in the dohyo-iri, so it's more than injury

[sumoforever 27]

@Seiyashi and @Gurowake - thanks for explaining about the Gino-sho, appreciate it!

[Akinomaki 39,533]

15 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I'm assuming injury, otherwise Hakkaku wouldn't be able to appear in the go-aisatsu.

Hakkaku needn't be in the heya, Dewanoumi wasn't kyujo at first with the heya