Ozeki demotion

[Shatsume 118]

This may be a daft question, but I couldn't find an answer to it:

If Takayasu doesn't enter the November Basho, would he come back in January as Sekiwake requiring 10 wins or as a Kadoban Ozeki?

[just_some_guy 284]

He'd be Sekiwake as he is already going to be kadoban for November.

[Shatsume 118]

Thanks

I thought that was the case but couldn't find anything to say for certain, so I had to ask!

[Jakusotsu 6,052]

Until 2004, Takayasu could have invoked the "kosho" regulation, letting him sit out one basho without demotion for having suffered an injury during a basho.

[Gaijingai 1,598]

1 hour ago, Jakusotsu said:

Until 2004, Takayasu could have invoked the "kosho" regulation, letting him sit out one basho without demotion for having suffered an injury during a basho.

And IMHO, this needs to be reinstated. Just saying. :)

[Tsubame 368]

Funny fact: It were the ozeki back then and their too often used (some would even say missused) "kosho" status to avoid demotion.

[just_some_guy 284]

It's a good idea in theory, but you have to wonder if half the roster would be absent every other basho.

[Sakura 1,495]

I'd like a one KOSHO for any reason per calendar year rule.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Sakura

[Bumpkin 438]

How about one kosho per two years (12 bashos). Maximum three kosho in a career. That seems fair.

[Shatsume 118]

It does seem somewhat harsh that he has done the really difficult part of 33 wins only to possibly have to do it again because of an injury not poor sumo. I know you could say the same about someone dropping from say m1 to the bottom of Juryo by being injured then missing 2 Basho, but they would then get to wrestle rikishi of lesser skill to get back up, whereas a demoted ozeki has to get 33 wins against the best of the best!

Hope my point makes sense. Something doesn't sit right with it for me, some form of Kosho that couldn't be 'manipulated' would certainly make it fairer.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Shatsume

[Jakusotsu 6,052]

In case there was some misunderstanding: the kosho regulation applied to all rikishi, not only Ozeki.

[Asashosakari 19,682]

15 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

In case there was some misunderstanding: the kosho regulation applied to all rikishi, not only Ozeki.

And ironically, it originally didn't apply to ozeki. They were only included in 1983, while kosho seido as a whole existed since 1972.

[robnplunder 976]

On 9/19/2017 at 10:52, Sakura said:

I'd like a one KOSHO for any reason per calendar year rule.

That'd be too sensible to introduce .   Something like that had to be done as all these bashos, junkyos, and training are taking heavy tolls on rikishi.   Their getting bigger and stronger over the years are also contributing to more injuries, IMO.

Edited September 21, 2017 by robnplunder

[ScreechingOwl 343]

Kosho - with limits - should be reinstated. "Forcing" injured rikishi to wrestle or lose rank simply produces bad sumo and creates more severe injuries. No sport does well when its stars are injured. (Even sumo recognizes this, as it continues to let yokozuna go kosho.)

To help make up for blanks in the banzuke the makuuchi division should be increased by two rikishi (from 42 to 44) and juryo should likewise be increased by two rikishi (from 28 to 30). Both divisions have been larger in the past - and the small additional monetary cost to the JSA would be more than made up for by having healthier sekitori (including fan favourites) and better matches. 

[dada78641 884]

On 22/09/2017 at 02:44, ScreechingOwl said:

Kosho - with limits - should be reinstated. "Forcing" injured rikishi to wrestle or lose rank simply produces bad sumo and creates more severe injuries. No sport does well when its stars are injured.

Hmm. Not really 100% true. Many solo sports have ranking systems that require you to play, like tennis or Formula One or tons of others. Not playing due to injury is no excuse. However, you generally slide down the ranking at a way lower pace in other sports.

[Asashosakari 19,682]

On 3.10.2017 at 17:56, dada78641 said:

Hmm. Not really 100% true. Many solo sports have ranking systems that require you to play, like tennis or Formula One or tons of others. Not playing due to injury is no excuse. However, you generally slide down the ranking at a way lower pace in other sports.

That depends on how high you are ranked before you start sliding down. The usual points rankings tend to favour (not by design) high-rankers, e.g. if you're the #10 ATP player right now and you lose half a season and half your points to injury, you still have enough left to be ranked around #30. On the other hand, if you're ranked #50 it'll drop you down to ~120th place, and a #100 player might even land outside the top 200. (And if you miss more than half a year then the decline soon accelerates dramatically as your points total drops towards zero, of course.)

The biggest issue sumo arguably has concerning returns from injury is that it has no meaningful system for allowing rikishi to re-enter at a level that's appropriate to their skills (like the Protected/Special Ranking does in tennis). There's really no good justification for having a sekitori make his return from long-term injury ranked somewhere in sandanme other than "that's how the banzuke works", but all the conceivable alternatives also have serious issues.

[Shatsume 118]

Since the number of rikishi in Makushita seems somewhat malleable, perhaps they could merely stop the drop at the bottom there in addition to the standard number? That way it affects no others too badly and they should just need 2-3 Basho to regain Sekitori status?

[dada78641 884]

11 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

That depends on how high you are ranked before you start sliding down. The usual points rankings tend to favour (not by design) high-rankers, e.g. if you're the #10 ATP player right now and you lose half a season and half your points to injury, you still have enough left to be ranked around #30. On the other hand, if you're ranked #50 it'll drop you down to ~120th place, and a #100 player might even land outside the top 200. (And if you miss more than half a year then the decline soon accelerates dramatically as your points total drops towards zero, of course.)

There's a lot of variation between sports. Generally everywhere you start sliding if you don't play. Chess is a bit different because your Elo ranking essentially freezes if you stop playing. (Even though in practice you do go down in strength.) Glicko2 was designed to include that into the equation but it hasn't been widely adopted. In some sports, the way the rankings are calculated make it possible to rank up so many points that you can take an extended leave. Current Snooker world champion Mark Selby could literally stop playing, skip the next world championship, and even whoever wins that one will not be able to catch up with him and take the #1 spot by the next world championship after that.

Sumo has a weird ranking system with the banzuke that makes it possible to slide really quickly, especially if you're a rank and filer. At least an ozeki has a bit of a cushion. But I guess what you say is true: it's not that easy to think of an alternative. Allowing wrestlers to take one basho off for free every now and then would be a good start though, I think.

[Benihana 1,937]

They could change the repromotion requirements for ex-ozeki. Once you have been ozeki for 3 consecutive basho and you lose your rank due to injury, you can force repromotion with a 10-5 as sekiwake, no matter how low you dropped. 

The "drop-stop" for the rest could look like this:

jonidan - bottom jonokuchi

sandanme - bottom jonidan

makushita - bottom sandanme

juryo - bottom makushita

maegashira - makushita td

san'yaku - bottom juryo

If your injury lasts more than a specific number of basho, your decline starts again until you reach the next lower level. There you remain again for a specific number of basho.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Benihana