HenryK 38 Posted March 30, 2009 I would give it to Tochiozan who faced much stronger competition; but I suppose Homasho is more likely(?) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Takamizawa 0 Posted March 30, 2009 I would give it to Tochiozan who faced much stronger competition; but I suppose Homasho is more likely(?) Agreed 100%; I think 8-7 from M2 is far more impressive than 11-4 from M7 where you aren't facing any of the heavy-hitters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoviki 16 Posted March 30, 2009 I'd also like to see it go to Tochiozan but we can't always trust the banzuke makers... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bealzbob 0 Posted March 30, 2009 Objectively, I think it will go to Homasho. Subjectively, I think it should go to Homasho :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sokkenaiyama 81 Posted March 30, 2009 I'd give it to Tochiozan, but history would give it to Homasho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilovesumo 12 Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) Remember those magical bouts of Homasho this Basho...(Matta matta matta? Hanzoku?) I feel that Shotenro was robbed and think there is a reason... maybe they want to push him upwards a little bit? So I say Homasho. Edited March 30, 2009 by ilovesumo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sokkenaiyama 81 Posted March 30, 2009 The hair pull was as real as can be. There was only one recent case of the same situation (M7E getting 11-4 and M2W getting 8-7), and they gave the promotion to the 11-4 guy. I'm expecting the same here, even though I'd promote Tochiozan over Homer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
satsuhikari 0 Posted March 31, 2009 Kw will be Homasho and I think almost every experienced banzuke maker will agree (Sign of approval...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tikozan 4 Posted March 31, 2009 I would give it to Tochiozan. His opponents were more difficult (2 Yokozunas, 5 Ozekis, 2 Sekiwake, 2 Komusubis and only 4 Maegashira) Top ranked opponent for Homasho was M1w Kakuryu and he lost.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oimeru 0 Posted March 31, 2009 The newest precedent is Hatsu 2004: Shimotori at M7e with 11-4 ended up at Kw, Kyokushuzan at M2w with 8-7 ended up at M1w. Before and after. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HenryK 38 Posted March 31, 2009 Kw will be Homasho and I think almost every experienced banzuke maker will agree (Yusho winner...) I don't think anyone here disagrees. The question is whether this is how it should be. A piece of statistic: of all rikishi since since 1957 who made it to S-M3 from M7 with an 11-4 score, 30 percent made KK in the next basho. Of all M2 with an 8-7 score, 36 percent made KK. It's close. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chisaiyama 11 Posted April 5, 2009 The newest precedent is Hatsu 2004:Shimotori at M7e with 11-4 ended up at Kw, Kyokushuzan at M2w with 8-7 ended up at M1w. Before and after. Not to mention in that particular instance that M3w also had an 8-7 and M6E right above shimotori was Dejima with 10-5 and he got bypassed also. This sort of leapfrogging has become common again it used to be just around 1 1/2 or 2 years ago that the quality of opponents and the current banzuke rank had much more impact. Then Tochiozan would have gotten the nod for sure but now I believe it will be Homasho in that Kw slot with Tochiozan at M1e. (Sigh...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoviki 16 Posted April 5, 2009 This information was given to me by a casual friend whose brother knows Tochiozan, she called me yesterday to tell me the "good news" that her brother told her that Ozan told her it was decided he'd be getting the KW slot! I have nothing else to base this on & have hesitated all day whether I should call Tochinoshin & ask him...but the info will be out soon enough anyway. I just thought it was interesting to hear this news from her. Most of the guys knew their approximate rank by mid week I guess. Some lower division guys told me last Friday. If this is true I'll be very happy for Tochiozan. If it isn't I have decided to call this friend back and ask her if her brother used to hang out with any rikishi expelled for drugs.. that could effect his brain! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilovesumo 12 Posted April 5, 2009 That would be nice. I like O3 much better ^^ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,668 Posted April 5, 2009 (edited) This sort of leapfrogging has become common again it used to be just around 1 1/2 or 2 years ago that the quality of opponents and the current banzuke rank had much more impact. I have to ask: examples, please? I suspect what you're remembering wasn't a quality-of-opponents issue, but rather a "not enough space to do it any other way" issue. Edited April 5, 2009 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoviki 16 Posted April 6, 2009 That would be nice. I like O3 much better ^^ ME too!!!! (In a state of confusion...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chisaiyama 11 Posted April 7, 2009 (edited) This sort of leapfrogging has become common again it used to be just around 1 1/2 or 2 years ago that the quality of opponents and the current banzuke rank had much more impact. I have to ask: examples, please? I suspect what you're remembering wasn't a quality-of-opponents issue, but rather a "not enough space to do it any other way" issue. In actual point of fact as I went looking back to find what I believed would be numerous examples I find that perhaps I was simply having a senior moment, reliving "good old days" that weren't as good as remembered. I find that the leap frogging has been far more prevalent for far longer than I remembered, although not as wildly so as it used to be in the 70s when a 12-3 from a M10-M14 might easily result in a M1 and on at least 1 occasion a K rank the next basho instead of the M4-5 that might have been expected in strictly numerical evaluation. We do seem to be approaching that again as in Tochiozan's leap from M12 to M2 based on a 10-5 record. His barely eked out 8-7 KK this time means it wasn't totally unjustified but again he faced a pretty weak Sanyaku/Ozeki group in Haru. Nonetheless I still believe we will see Homasho not Tochiozan in the Komosubi spot. It could be said Ozan faced "tougher" opponents if you simply consider their ranking but in fact of his 8 victories only 4 of those went on to have winning records while 7 of Homashos opponents were rikishi who compiled KK records. Does a 2-13 Ozeki qualify as a "tougher" opponent than a 10-5 rank and filer for instance? Homasho beat 11 rikishi with a combined record of: 85-81 while Tochiozan's victims had a combined: 56-64, who should get to play with the big boys next time? And let's remember that 10-5 of that 56-64 came from Harumafuji, who twisted, turned, inashied and flat out henkad his way to many if not most of his victories, even he admitted he wasn't displaying good sumo, in his daily comments. Not to take everything away from Tochiozan, he is a strong rikishi with a great career ahead of him as I believe Homasho has ahead of him, I just think that Homasho has earned that KW slot this time with better overall sumo against overall stronger opponents. Edited April 7, 2009 by Chisaiyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tikozan 4 Posted April 17, 2009 Let's see, which surprises the bazuke makers have this time :-D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryafuji 815 Posted April 17, 2009 I think Homasho would be very unlucky to miss out, considering that he has twice before held the M1E position (and once the M1W). Of course, if he'd just managed to win on the final day we wouldn't be having this discussion as he'd probably have been a shoo-in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,530 Posted April 20, 2009 Going strictly by the tone of the online papers of late, it seems there is no doubt Tochiouzan will be shin-Komusubi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,668 Posted April 20, 2009 Going strictly by the tone of the online papers of late, it seems there is no doubt Tochiouzan will be shin-Komusubi. Just saw that, too...pretty nuts IMO but then again I've learned not to doubt these hints. (I probably will, anyway, if I ever get around to my GTB entry...) It does seem to me that they're not phrasing it as forcefully as in really obvious cases though, e.g. Goeido's komusubi return last basho, but maybe I'm just imagining that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,668 Posted April 20, 2009 The neat thing is that this flabbergasting decision, if true, probably portends another completely ridiculous banzuke the rest of the way, too, so everyone who actually applied logic and common sense in their GTB guess may want to think about a redo... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
satsuhikari 0 Posted April 20, 2009 The neat thing is that this flabbergasting decision, if true, probably portends another completely ridiculous banzuke the rest of the way, too, so everyone who actually applied logic and common sense in their GTB guess may want to think about a redo... I always try to make a logical Banzuke, but the committee always comes up with some surprises/unlogical decisions. After reading that Tochiozan has been informed about his promotion and some online papers also "confirm" this, I have to ponder about changing my GTB entry (Eh?) Somehow I want to make a logical Banzuke (where Homasho has to be Komusubi), but there are good reasons for Tochiozan as it seems... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bealzbob 0 Posted April 22, 2009 The neat thing is that this flabbergasting decision, if true, probably portends another completely ridiculous banzuke the rest of the way, too, so everyone who actually applied logic and common sense in their GTB guess may want to think about a redo... I'd say anyone re-doing their banzuke after receiving definitive info on placings is cheating, no? The 'G' in GTB doesn't stand for 'reproduce' afterall :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
