Will the Ossetian replacements come from Amasumo?

[yamaneko 2]

We now have three more foreigner spots open right? I know that the heya might be under pressure not to fill them right away, and especially not from the ranks of Russia, but this is an opportunity for these heya to get some great talent.

I wonder if the oyakata will be recruiting the world championships. Many of the recent foreigner recruits have had background in world championships or world junior championships.

I wonder if there is anyone young enough who would warrant a look at filling up one of those spots. Obviously anyone in the junior ranks, but perhaps they would want to go the Aran route, and get someone who already has proven to be able to compete at a makushita/juryo level.

I really wish that instead of amasumo, at least one of the spots would be filled by hawaii, samoa, or another place that has not been tapped in a while.

[Jonosuke 28]

My impression is that there will be no recruitment, none whatsoever from any from international tournaments.

If they fill one of the foreign born opening, they will first look at some of Mongolian already in Japan competing in amateur ranks. They will be looking for someone already accustomed to Japanese life and understand good enough Japanese. I'd say that would limit Mongolians currently competing in college sumo.

[Doitsuyama 1,194]

We now have three more foreigner spots open right?

Nope. Kitanoumi-beya still has Orora from Russia.

[madorosumaru 7]

Mongolian prospect at a Japanese university while waiting for opening in Ozumo. Todbileg

A photo of the three Mongolian student/rikishi with their Kyushu Joho Univ. clubmates. The picture of the then sophomores is a year old. The three are now third-year students. Tod is the one at far right of the back row.

Edited September 15, 2008 by madorosumaru

[Asashosakari 19,688]

Mado beat me to it...my first thought were the Kyushu Joho guys, too. I actually thought they'd already be in their fourth year, at least it seemed as though we'd been reading of them for that long already. Guess not. (Whistling...) Just as well, perhaps...if they're ready to join for January or March 2010, that'll probably be enough time for the current bad air to clear.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Sasanishiki 57]

I'm inclined to say Mongolia as well, via Japanese university sumo. However, I would not put it past a Bulgarian or a Georgian to be recruited in the future. Both Kotooshu and Kokkai have proven themselves reliable and the contacts would probably come through them and their connections back in their home countries. Both would also serve as reliable 'older brother' figures for the new recruit.

[Mark Buckton 1]

I'm inclined to say Mongolia as well, via Japanese university sumo. However, I would not put it past a Bulgarian or a Georgian to be recruited in the future. Both Kotooshu and Kokkai have proven themselves reliable and the contacts would probably come through them and their connections back in their home countries. Both would also serve as reliable 'older brother' figures for the new recruit.

I would actually go with this idea as opposed to a Mongolian already here. Might also add Estonia.

Think we might see another 'brother' coming over soon actually.

[Johnofuji 232]

Sasanishiki -any developments with Sio?(Oceania Champion and also went to junior worlds) Katrina had some meetings with Azumazeki Oyakata and he said he was keen to take him as long as he was a good boy and stayed off the grog. If so would he be the first Kiwi to join Ozumo?

Its a shame it didn't work out with 190kg Mark but his expectations were never managed before he left.

[yamaneko 2]

Todbileg i have had high hopes for for a while. I was surprised the one heya recently took a more unknown mongolian...thought he for sure would be the next mongolian.

He seems pretty close to a sure thing. Before him, which mongolian really has been a mover and shaker? Tokitenku? So many mongolians of late have been toiling for years in makushita, sandanme, etc. Kyokushuho looks promising, but hes almost what id call a "sure thing" due to his size and pedigree. But i dont think heyas should keep getting the 180cm/100kg mongolians, hoping that he has a growth spurt and turns into the next hakuho.

[Asashosakari 19,688]

He seems pretty close to a sure thing. Before him, which mongolian really has been a mover and shaker? Tokitenku? So many mongolians of late have been toiling for years in makushita, sandanme, etc.

You make it sound as though there was one early wave of Mongolian rikishi that turned out very successful, and then later recruits fell short of that, when that's not actually what happened. There are very few "Mongolians of late"; the ones you're thinking of are simply the less-successful members of the same, drawn-out recruiting drive. But only four more have joined after Hatsu 2004, i.e. in the last nearly five years.

Checking out the list of Mongolian rikishi sorted by debut may be informative. In fact, that same list sorted by birthdate may be even more so...you'll find that the younger recruits have done just as well as the older ones.

[yamaneko 2]

Yes, that right there is what I am talking about. In 2001 you had hakuho "make it"...getting to sekitori in about 3 years. But after him only tokitenku has really become a solid sekitori really fast...making it in a little over a year. Kakuryu is pretty solid, but took him 5 years to make makuuchi (started before tokitenku). And then a plethora of others who just toil in the lower divisions.

Meanwhile, all Russians after Amuru shot up the banzuke fairly quickly.

Georgians have a decent record. 4 recruits. One speedy banzuke riser and now solid sekitori in kokkai. There was kokkais brother who seemed to be well on his way but then had to leave sumo. Gagamaru has been around 2.5 years, is in middle makushita. Tochinoshin shot up the banzuke and seems to be solid makuuchi.

Of course theres baruto and kotooshu.

Theres no guaranteed sekitori status if you go to X country, but of late the europeans have had a better track record as far as sekitori level guys.

[Kintamayama 45,549]

No foreign recruits for the duration of Musashigawa's first tenure. Then, I'll decide.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 19,688]

Yes, that right there is what I am talking about. In 2001 you had hakuho "make it"...getting to sekitori in about 3 years. But after him only tokitenku has really become a solid sekitori really fast...making it in a little over a year. Kakuryu is pretty solid, but took him 5 years to make makuuchi (started before tokitenku). And then a plethora of others who just toil in the lower divisions.

Okay...I just don't see why that is surprising. There were 22 Mongolians recruited in 2000 and 2001, just 10 in the next three years, so just from that you would expect to find more successes in the early group. And it being a fairly fresh area to recruit from, of course the early signups also included a greater quantity of the most talented guys - and unlike Japanese recruiting they didn't recruit just from one age cohort, but across several at once. Those 22 rikishi from 2000/01 are spread across all birthyears from 1980 to 1984 (and Kakuryu even from 1985, sneaking in with a November 2001 debut). It's only natural that that thinned out the talent pool quite a bit for the subsequent recruiting. BTW, Tokitenku really belongs into that early group as well, being born in 1979. He simply got his first four years of "coaching" at a university instead of a heya.

Anyway, as I've probably said far too often already, I just don't get your fascination with "getting there really fast". I understand that it's superficially impressive to see a guy shoot up the ranks, but there's no there there, at least not necessarily. Kakuryu may have taken 5 years to reach makuuchi, but he also started very young, and when all is said and done he will most likely have been among the top 5 Mongolian rikishi from that early 2000s recruiting drive, behind the two yokozuna, and probably behind Ama and ahead of Asasekiryu - and way ahead of Tokitenku. (But if you're looking for another guy who got there reasonably fast, Tamawashi just reached makuuchi after four and a half years, and to my lying eyes he's more likely to establish himself up there than Hakuba, Ryuo and Koryu.)

Theres no guaranteed sekitori status if you go to X country, but of late the europeans have had a better track record as far as sekitori level guys.

European rikishi are more successful on average than Mongolians for the same reason (among several) that Mongolians are more successful on average than Japanese...higher standards to be cleared by the candidate until an oyakata will feel comfortable enough and ready to accept him as a deshi. Mongolian rikishi are comparatively easy to integrate so it's much more likely that a stablemaster will take a flyer on a guy who isn't guaranteed to be a star. Sometimes they'll turn out like Hakuho. (And others will turn out like Fudoyama, of course.)

Or to put it more bluntly, as far as the job of convincing oyakata goes, European rikishi have done with it with size and promises of talent (because for the most part they had nothing else), while Mongolian rikishi can also make their case with soft skills. And that is an equation that has just shifted away dramatically from the Europeans after the triple Russian desaster. Oyakata will be much less likely to overlook an inability to integrate now, no matter how talented somebody might be.

[aderechelsea 125]

Asashosakari's post couldn't have been any better or more eloquent.

It explains the situation perfectly. I will be a total jerk and just say "ditto" to the above (Thinking in depth...) .

[Jejima 1,427]

No foreign recruits for the duration of Musashigawa's first tenure. Then, I'll decide.

I think that you may be a bit fast on this one. After all, Musashigawa's most successful deshi is foreign. I think that any foreigner about to join Ozumo will have a lot of what is expected drilled into him. Isn't this basically what the rijicho said on new foreign recruits? If there were to be no new recruits, he'd have probably have said something about forming a committee to discuss new recruits, which would then prolong anyone new joining.

[Kintamayama 45,549]

I think that you may be a bit fast on this one. After all, Musashigawa's most successful deshi is foreign. I think that any foreigner about to join Ozumo will have a lot of what is expected drilled into him. Isn't this basically what the rijicho said on new foreign recruits? If there were to be no new recruits, he'd have probably have said something about forming a committee to discuss new recruits, which would then prolong anyone new joining.

Not really. They never say "no foreign recruits". They say stuff like "We will see" and "if a foreigner wants to join, we must really be sure he is made of the right stuff, and that should take at least a year". The subtext I think is "Let's make life for him a living inferno and see how long he can stand it".

I stand by me.

[yamaneko 2]

Anyway, as I've probably said far too often already, I just don't get your fascination with "getting there really fast".

Do not heya make money off of the sekitori rikishi? Otherwise they are just bleeding the place (so to speak). The most coveted Japanese recruits for heyas are the college guys, especially tsukedashi because they can reach sekitori relatively fast and get prestige and money for the heya. Now of cousre they still need to recruit the others, high school kids, unexperienced guys, etc....because you never know when you can find a diamond in the rough.

But with foreigners its different. you only get one per heya. Unlike japan where its hard to get the college yokozuna, or the "hot" guys, you have almost the whole world to pick from, and the foreigner cant exactly be picky since if he really wants to get in ozumo therse only a handful of heya he can go to. So IMO, i say shoot for the moon with your one lone foreigner slot. You shouldnt taken the 1 in 10 chance that a little tiny foreigner will blossom into a money making machine sekitori. More often than naught you will be stuck with a takanoyama, seiro, torugawa, oniarashi, etc. as opposed to a hakuho. Instead i say go for the bigger, experienced, brusing guy like a kokkai, tokitenku, baruto, kyokushuho, roho, etc.

I do think the speed at which one makes sekitori is important to the heya.

[Asashosakari 19,688]

Do not heya make money off of the sekitori rikishi? Otherwise they are just bleeding the place (so to speak).

AFAIK a shisho receives 70,000 yen per month from the Kyokai for each rikishi (no matter his rank) to cover expenses associated with lodging, food and training. Additionally, according to some very old numbers I have laying around (from 1995, so might be outdated) there are basho bonuses for the shisho depending on the ranks of his sekitori, namely:

Yokozuna: 300,000 yen

Ozeki: 200,000 yen

Sanyaku: 100,000 yen

Maegashira: 50,000 yen

Juryo: 30,000 yen

So, unless you're Onoe-beya and half your recruits are already sekitori, those bonuses are just a drop in the bucket.

The most coveted Japanese recruits for heyas are the college guys, especially tsukedashi because they can reach sekitori relatively fast and get prestige and money for the heya.

Sure, but that mostly applies to upstart stables. A place like, say, Tamanoi-beya has enough of an established supporters' network that it probably doesn't matter that much whether they have a sekitori at any given time, and I believe the money a sekitori generates from his personal koenkai goes primarily to himself.

Perhaps more importantly, a sekitori might decide on his own to support his heya with portions of his own paychecks and other income. I have a feeling that's much less likely among rikishi who join a stable "fully formed", though, as many foreigners and collegiate rikishi do. (And lastly, of course, there's also the time-honoured tradition of a shisho skimming money off his recruit's income, but I'd guess that's happening a lot less nowadays than it used to.)

But with foreigners its different. you only get one per heya. Unlike japan where its hard to get the college yokozuna, or the "hot" guys, you have almost the whole world to pick from, and the foreigner cant exactly be picky since if he really wants to get in ozumo therse only a handful of heya he can go to. So IMO, i say shoot for the moon with your one lone foreigner slot. You shouldnt taken the 1 in 10 chance that a little tiny foreigner will blossom into a money making machine sekitori. More often than naught you will be stuck with a takanoyama, seiro, torugawa, oniarashi, etc. as opposed to a hakuho. Instead i say go for the bigger, experienced, brusing guy like a kokkai, tokitenku, baruto, kyokushuho, roho, etc.

I'd say your view is distorted quite a bit by your apparent belief that foreign rikishi make the sumo world go 'round. I doubt most oyakata are quite that desperate to turn their foreigner slot into a success story, any more than they'd like to turn any of their rikishi into a success story.

Edited September 17, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Jakusotsu 6,052]

I do think the speed at which one makes sekitori is important to the heya.

Perhaps not for the heya itself, but I firmly believe that part of Wakanoho's problem was his fast rise from the educational ranks. Just imagine where Baruto would be now if he had the time to learn to fall properly?

[Sasanishiki 57]

Interesting discussion going on. I'd just like to say that we need to keep in mind that this is the amasumo subforum so think about that aspect rather than just "new foreign rikishi". So, do we think there will be any new foreigners under the new rijicho, will those foreigners be from amasumo, and, if so, who might they be?

[yamaneko 2]

So, unless you're Onoe-beya and half your recruits are already sekitori, those bonuses are just a drop in the bucket.

Im not just referring to the shisho, but rather they heya as a whole. Do they not have fund raising parties, and things of that nature that generate income for the heya, with the more successful ones being the ones with sekitori? Doesnt the heya get a cut of any kind of publicity (advertising) that the guy might do, apperances, anything like that?

There is really no financial benefit of having sekitori in your heya other than just those bonuses you mentioned?

I'd say your view is distorted quite a bit by your apparent belief that foreign rikishi make the sumo world go 'round. I doubt most oyakata are quite that desperate to turn their foreigner slot into a success story, any more than they'd like to turn any of their rikishi into a success story.

Well i have never said foreign rikishi make the sumo world go round. However, someone ELSE could very well argue that inasmuch as the new yokozuna and ozeki for years now have been only foreigners, as well as the majority of the yusho over the past few years, all won by foreigners.

I wouldnt call an oyakata "desperate" to turn their foreigner slot into a success story, but the fact remains that you only get one shot to do it, as opposed to with japanese recruits, you have no pressure at all. I cant imagine one uses the same thought process in recruting a japanese as with a foreigner. Would a heya choose some 5'6" 170lbs ex bar host from New Zealand as recently happened here with a japanese? No, because that would be an incredible waste of their only foreigner slot.

I do think that the replacements for roho and wakanoho should be from Amasumo...if there is another aran (someone under age limit, who dominates the championships) i think magaki should go after him if he wants to go to japan.

Or, if they wanted to go the "upside" route, get someone good at the juniors...was not tochinoshin a participant in world juniors before?

But the number 1 target from what ive read at least, IMO should be that toldberg guy. Hes got size, japan living and speaking experience, and amasumo experience.

[Asashosakari 19,688]

There is really no financial benefit of having sekitori in your heya other than just those bonuses you mentioned?

I'm not saying there's no benefit, just that it's negligible. The average Japanese will be lucky to know who the current yokozuna and ozeki are. So, yeah, if your foreigner happens to be Asashoryu or Hakuho or even Kotooshu, then you can probably expect a boost in your heya fortunes. Beyond that, however...do you think Otake-beya (well-established already as Taiho-beya before) really received a significant boost in interest from having Roho among its deshi? (Ignoring the recent negative publicity, I mean.) And most quickly-rising foreign rikishi, particularly those with an amasumo background, are exactly the type of low-upside, easily-forgettable quantity that Roho was. (Aran comes to mind...)

For new stables, it's something different; Iwakiyama probably helped at least a bit to put Sakaigawa-beya on the map, just like Homasho did for Shikoroyama, and Ichihara may do for Kise. But if you're already established, it hardly matters to recruit yet another guy like that...heck, Takanohana-beya is still throwing expensive senshuraku parties in big hotels and getting significant attendance for them (or at least was as of last year), even though the stable hasn't amounted to anything on the sekitori side for nearly five years now, and comparable new stables need to keep things a lot more low-key due to lack of support.

So no, I doubt that even a high-profile amasumo foreigner will be considered a difference-maker they just have to recruit by most shishos. And with the recent problems, even less so.

Edit: Anyway, this whole thread seems to be predicated on the notion that future foreign recruiting will be taking place in some kind of context-free vacuum. Considering exactly which stables suddenly have an open foreigner slot again (Magaki and Otake...), expecting them to go for exactly that same type of foreign rikishi again seems...err, optimistic.

And even allowing for your argument that it's all about the money: Otake-oyakata will be losing about 20% of his previous salary for the next 5+ years due to the two-rank demotion he received. Would you consider the Roho recruiting worthwhile right now if you were in his shoes? It's just not nearly as simple as you try to make it out. ("... this is an opportunity for these heya to get some great talent.")

Edited September 17, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Kotoviki 16]

Perhaps Tochinoshin's brother may want to make a jump from Judo to Sumo?

He is at about the same place Tochinoshin was in Judo in Georgia now.

He is a really nice lad (at least on the phone!) speaks English! Seems to have the same will, and desire to succeed as Tochinoshin.

*and almost as good looking.. but I am prejudice!*

[Mark Buckton 1]

The average Japanese will be lucky to know who the current yokozuna and ozeki are.

ridiculous comment, (Sign of disapproval...) (Sign of disapproval...) (Sign of disapproval...) and I know it will be attacked, but the only answer is 'do the time' -se what the 'average Japanese' you mention (Laughing...) (In a state of confusion...) really feel.

MB

[Mark Buckton 1]

Perhaps Tochinoshin's brother may want to make a jump from Judo to Sumo?

He is at about the same place Tochinoshin was in Judo in Georgia now.

He is a really nice lad (at least on the phone!) speaks English! Seems to have the same will, and desire to succeed as Tochinoshin.

*and almost as good looking.. but I am prejudice!*

he is already trying to get his brother into sumo - started a year ago.