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[Raishu 215]

On 31/07/2025 at 14:32, Steve said:

Another less than stellar rikishi becoming stable master, they get rid of takanohama and hakuho yet these mediocre buffoons thrive in the nsk, not great for the kids he is now in charge of

I swear, this comment would fare very well below a Chris Gould video.

Edited August 8 by Raishu

[Dairenzu 8]

Yeah, lots of possibilities for Katanaomi, but they aren't acting like a stable that plans to be around in its current form for a long time and Tamaasuka leaving confirms that a bit for me.

Tamawashi is obviously qualified to break out his own stable and could take what's left to a new location, either as Kataonami or under a new name. It is one of the longer continually operated beyas, but Tamawashi surely isn't going to wait 13 years to take it over (unless he is still wrestling then which I can't fully discount the possibility!).

[Steve 11]

13 hours ago, Tochinofuji said:

Prowess in the ring is no indication of potential as a coach or stablemaster. They're separate skillsets, and Kumagatani-oyakata, as far as I know, has done nothing to deserve the disrespect of being called a "mediocre buffoon". It should be remembered that Takanohana and Hakuho (the latter of whom I thought was dealt with unfairly and who I think had significant potential as an oyakata) had significant heya bullying issues come to light and were hardly perfect as stablemasters, regardless of their stellar performances on the dohyo. 

Fair enough, i just thought that an ozeki level coach would be able to teach the mental game of top competition  it i guess someone who has struggled as hard or harder and not quite hit the top is more valuable for the young guys coming up, not eveyone is blessed with natural sumo talent like those who shoot through the ranks to the top maybe the tenacious spirit needed to sustain in the long run is better taught by the guys who never made sanyaku, 

[hypnoowl 23]

3 hours ago, Steve said:

Fair enough, i just thought that an ozeki level coach would be able to teach the mental game of top competition  it i guess someone who has struggled as hard or harder and not quite hit the top is more valuable for the young guys coming up, not eveyone is blessed with natural sumo talent like those who shoot through the ranks to the top maybe the tenacious spirit needed to sustain in the long run is better taught by the guys who never made sanyaku, 

Look no further than the two longest-serving ozeki Kaio and Chiyotaikai, now Asakayama and Kokonoe, who only produced one sekitori each, both barely surviving in juryo for a while and eventually falling out. And then there is Kise-oyakata with the second-biggest sekitori presence, despite never reaching sanyaku. It's also quite obvious that oyakata's personality and ability to attract talent play maybe a more significant role in the heya's success than the teaching skills alone.

[Akinomaki 41,570]

On 20/06/2025 at 05:08, Asashosakari said:

On 18/06/2025 at 07:34, Akinomaki said:

The slight cost reduction for the switch to sanyo may disappear as well, semi-tabloid Real life reports the plan to extend the retirement age to 70, so that Hakkaku can stay rijicho several more terms. 

https://npn.co.jp/article/detail/200037435

As could have been suspected from the fact that this publication doesn't actually appear to cover sumo to any meaningful degree and from how utterly substance-free the article was, it turns out that the "retirement age up?" claim didn't actually originate with them, but much more likely from this Daily Shincho article dated online to one day prior (and out in print even earlier, I presume):

https://www.dailyshincho.jp/article/2025/06170603/?all=1

Anyway, even though it leads the headline, the retirement age topic doesn't actually come up until the very end of the article, and substance-wise it boils down simply to "Apparently a proposal to increase the retirement age has been floated internally." That's it. Nothing about whether this is in any way likely, or if it's even still on the agenda at this time at all. Alleged details of the proposal do follow, namely not just making 70 the standard mandatory retirement age but also keeping the sanyo system up to age 75 (!), but Shincho's writer didn't actually dare to put his own name to any of that, instead attributing it to a "veteran sumo journalist". That same anonymous and quite possibly entirely fictitious journalist is also cited for large other parts of the article, including the "Takanohana true believer" stuff from the start, so you be the judge how credible that is.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that this retirement age extension is supposedly part of Hakkaku further shoring up the continued viability of his regime...if you're now wondering, "why would anyone need to support Hakkaku for that when any 6 board members could just vote it in", you've reached the same point that I have in questioning this entire "Hakkaku dictatorship" narrative.

There also was something in a Weekly Post article, now they posted a follow-up and mentioned some from June - which was not on the net

Since the sanyo for 70% of salary basically do nothing for the NSK, they want the full employment, rijicho post included. The NSK doesn't pay travel expenses for the sanyo, thus they have no duty to be at jungyo or regional basho. No mention of an extension of the sanyo system to 75. They investigated about opposition within the NSK and got no response from them.  http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20250803_2056627.html

Edited August 8 by Akinomaki

[themistyseas 242]

It's also important to point out that there just aren't that many candidates in the ichimon. Almost all of the Nishonoseki-ichimon elders are either shisho in their own right or sanyo. A couple of the Sadogatake guys are also reaching retirement age soon, and ex-Takakeisho can either inherit his own heya in a couple years when the current shisho retires (or branch out if someone else like Takanosho were to inherit it). Most of the candidates were of a similar stature when you look at their active careers. Also worth pointing out that it would also involve a significant relocation for the available coaches currently at Sadogatake, Hanaregoma and Onomatsu, which are all located out of the city.

I came to SF today specifically to see if there was news about this (as I am looking to join a nearby koen-kai soon and so am studying what each one offers), so thank you to @Kintamayama for breaking the news.

[Kintamayama 46,753]

On 03/08/2025 at 11:05, Akinomaki said:

They asked some insiders and didn't hear anything about opposition within the NSK.  http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20250803_2056627.html

Full translation, since this may turn out to be a major issue..

Under the leadership of Chairman Hakkaku the Kyokai is drawing attention as it appears to be moving towards introducing a "70-year retirement age" plan. The revised Act on Stabilization of Employment of Older Persons, which came into effect in 2021, makes it mandatory for companies to offer employment opportunities to employees until age 65, and stipulates that companies are obligated to make efforts to introduce continued employment systems such as raising the retirement age to 70. Prior to this, since 2014 the Kyokai has been re-employing Oyakatas, limited to those aged between 65 and 70. If those seeking re-employment receive approval from the board of directors, their employment will be extended until age 70 in the position of advisor, with 70% of their previous salary being paid. Currently, there are eight re-employed  Oyakata: Minezaki, Tatsutayama, Takashima, Kagamiyama, Irumagawa  Michinoku, Hanakago, and Miyagino  A sumo reporter said, "The re-employed Oyakata cannot become executive directors or Oyakata but rather they are tasked with supporting other Oyakata by working in the life guidance department as an etiquette instructor, or by joining the instruction and promotion department or compliance department. However, in reality, there is nothing for them to do. In the case of regional basho, which require travel and accommodation expenses, the Kyokai does not make participation mandatory, perhaps because they do not want to cover the expenses. There were many participating Oyakata who did not even attend the Nagoya basho."

Many Oyakata are approaching the retirement age of 65. Such re-employment also has its drawbacks. To remain in the Sumo Kyokai as an elder, one must obtain one of the 105 elder names. Because the number is limited, if more Oyakata remain as advisors, it will mean that rikishi who want to remain in the Kyokai will not be able to obtain an elder name. In the next two years, there will be 10 Oyakata who will reach the retirement age of 65: Ootake , Shiratama, Tokiwayama, Jinmaku, Katsunoura, Kasugano, Sakaigawa, Kumegawa, Shibatayama and Nishikido.  Ootake Oyakata, who will reach the retirement age of 65 in September this year, will exchange elder names with Kataonami beya's  Kumagatani Oyakata.

It was announced after the Nagoya basho that the new Ootake Oyakata will inherit Ootake beya, and Ootake Oyakata will be rehired as Kumagatani and remain as a heya advisor. If everyone remains in the Kyokai as advisors, it will become difficult for active rikishi to obtain elder names even if they want to remain in the Kyokai. As a result, there will be cases where rikishi who are unable to retire and have fallen from Ozeki will continue to compete in Juryo. In recent years, Yutakayama, Ounoshou, Toyonoshima, Shouhouzan, Chiyotairyuu, and Joukouryuu have all retired without being able to obtain elder names. Until now, some Oyakata have chosen not to be rehired and instead made way for the next generation, but there are concerns that the shortage of elder names will become even more severe with the retirement age of 70." Will labor costs not increase?! Weekly Post was the first to interview the Sumo Kyokai in June about the introduction of a 70-year retirement age and the backlash against it, but was only told, "We have nothing to comment on" (Public Relations Department).

The significance of this issue is that 62-year-old Chairman Hakkaku has one term, two years, until retirement under the current system, but if the retirement age is extended, he could potentially continue in his position for a longer period. A sumo journalist commented, "It is said that Chairman Hakkaku and Business Division Manager Kasugano were lobbying the board of directors to extend the retirement age to 70 during the Nagoya basho, but many Oyakata were opposed, fearing that there would be an even more chronic shortage of elder names. There are also rumors that they will consult with the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, the supervisory agency, after the basho. It's convenient for them that there are so many Oyakata turning 65 in one or two years. They are likely planning to use this influence to consult with the board of directors."

Normally, extending the retirement age is a high hurdle for a company, as increased labor costs put pressure on management. However, the Sumo Kyokai has unique circumstances. A young Oyakata explains. "Even if the retirement age is extended or re-employment is implemented, personnel costs will not increase because the total number of elders is fixed at 105. In fact, personnel costs for re-employed elders will be kept at 70%. This is why the move can be made smoothly. However, if a retirement age of 70 is introduced, it will become even more difficult for active rikishi to remain with the Kyokai." Can this move really be said to be beneficial for the future of the sumo world? Future developments will be closely watched.

 

 

Edited August 9 by Kintamayama

[Fashiritētā 209]

Thank you Moti, i would think this gives Hakuho a better chance of hiring ex wrestlers as coaches in his new league (if thats what hes doing) , because it sounds like theres already some dissension in the ranks and the current crop of wrestlers will need a place to go.

Personally, they should keep it at 65 , but my opinion doesn’t count, not looking forward to more of Hakakau and his old 17th century way of doing things and his power trip.

[Bunbukuchagama 922]

17 minutes ago, Fashiritētā said:

Thank you Moti, i would think this gives Hakuho a better chance of hiring ex wrestlers as coaches in his new league (if thats what hes doing) , because it sounds like theres already some dissension in the ranks and the current crop of wrestlers will need a place to go.

Personally, they should keep it at 65 , but my opinion doesn’t count, not looking forward to more of Hakakau and his old 17th century way of doing things and his power trip.

Kabu availability shouldn't decrease in any significant way; on the other hand, the old guard will get to rule longer, this is correct. 

[Ripe 80]

Whether increasing mandatory retirement age to 70 will be beneficial or not remains to be seen (there are arguments for both sides), but don't we have that already? I mean, how many oyakata got refused Sanyo status? Previous Arashio might be one, but I don't think he even applied for it.

And speaking of Sanyo... can we say what are benefits of that considering it's been going for 10 years now?

[Leoben 160]

Sort of tangential to this, but what are the salaries of Oyakata? I assume Hakkaku and the other senior positions make a substantial salary, but what about the rank and file stablemasters and the coaches who don't run their own heya?

[Yarimotsu 628]

6 hours ago, Fashiritētā said:

Hakakau and his old 17th century way of doing things and his power trip

If it were oyakata in their 50s or younger named as leading the charge to change the age, I'd think it had some merit. But agreed, as it stands, this stinks of Hakkaku trying to have his own way with the system.

[Bunbukuchagama 922]

23 minutes ago, Leoben said:

Sort of tangential to this, but what are the salaries of Oyakata?

Around 15M yen a year on average. 

[Yubinhaad 11,927]

13 hours ago, Ripe said:

Whether increasing mandatory retirement age to 70 will be beneficial or not remains to be seen (there are arguments for both sides), but don't we have that already? I mean, how many oyakata got refused Sanyo status? Previous Arashio might be one, but I don't think he even applied for it.

I looked into that when Tochinoshin was talking rubbish a couple of months ago. According to my notes, five sanyo to date have served out their five-year contract. Eight others retired with varying amounts of time remaining. Four other oyakata would have been eligible to continue but declined and retired at 65.
 

Sanyo full term		Sanyo early retire	Retired at 65

Chiganoura		Tateyama (7 mo.)	Asahiyama
Matsuchiyama		Takekuma (3 yr.)	Kitajin
Dekiyama		Nishikijima* (4 yr.)	Yamashina
Kiriyama		Oyama (2 mo.)		Arashio**
Tomozuna		Magaki (4 yr.)
			Araiso (3 yr.)
			Oguruma (3 yr.)
			Minatogawa (2 yr.)

* The retirement of Nishikijima (ex-Asashio) obviously wasn't planned to happen when and how it did, but I've included it anyway.

** OK, ex-Oyutaka retired a few days before turning 65 but I'm including him in that group.

 

20 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

The revised Act on Stabilization of Employment of Older Persons, which came into effect in 2021, makes it mandatory for companies to offer employment opportunities to employees until age 65, and stipulates that companies are obligated to make efforts to introduce continued employment systems such as raising the retirement age to 70.

So if this is a government policy (and FWIW I think it was last revised in 2012 and came into effect April 2013, not 2021) I don't understand why the Kyokai/Hakkaku are being criticised over it, if all companies are obliged to carry out its provisions?

[Kintamayama 46,753]

29 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

So if this is a government policy (and FWIW I think it was last revised in 2012 and came into effect April 2013, not 2021)

My source, the article, which may be wrong..

2021年に施行された改正高年齢者雇用安定法

 

[Bunbukuchagama 922]

5 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:

So if this is a government policy (and FWIW I think it was last revised in 2012 and came into effect April 2013, not 2021) I don't understand why the Kyokai/Hakkaku are being criticised over it, if all companies are obliged to carry out its provisions?

"Make efforts to" is what we call "weak language" in labour contract world. It's no more than a recommendation, nobody will drag NSK to court for not employing 69-year old oyakata.

[Ripe 80]

12 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:

I looked into that when Tochinoshin was talking rubbish a couple of months ago. According to my notes, five sanyo to date have served out their five-year contract. Eight others retired with varying amounts of time remaining. Four other oyakata would have been eligible to continue but declined and retired at 65.
 

Sanyo full term		Sanyo early retire	Retired at 65

Chiganoura		Tateyama (7 mo.)	Asahiyama
Matsuchiyama		Takekuma (3 yr.)	Kitajin
Dekiyama		Nishikijima* (4 yr.)	Yamashina
Kiriyama		Oyama (2 mo.)		Arashio**
Tomozuna		Magaki (4 yr.)
			Araiso (3 yr.)
			Oguruma (3 yr.)
			Minatogawa (2 yr.)

* The retirement of Nishikijima (ex-Asashio) obviously wasn't planned to happen when and how it did, but I've included it anyway.

** OK, ex-Oyutaka retired a few days before turning 65 but I'm including him in that group.

That list is missing those who are currently employed as sanyo... which adds another eight names to the list. Meaning that out of 25 oyakata who turned 65 since system was introduced only 4 were denied sanyo status. And one of the four (Arashio) might not have applied for one! We can (and we probably will) also have another 3 names added to the list before the year end.

And I'm still wondering what are the benefits of keeping those 21 oyakata who got approved for 5 more years...

Edited August 10 by Ripe

[Bunbukuchagama 922]

2 minutes ago, Ripe said:

And I'm still wondering what are the benefits of keeping those 21 oyakata who got approved for 5 more years...

I see a lot of benefits for the oyakata in question. 

Edited August 10 by Bunbukuchagama

[Ripe 80]

1 minute ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

I see a lot of benefits for the oyakata in question. 

For them, absolutely. But they may be the only ones. For sumo in general... that is another issue.

[Kintamayama 46,753]

On 31/07/2025 at 12:11, Kintamayama said:

Kumagatani (Ex-Tamaasuka) will be taking over Ootake beya after September as the current Oyakata will be retiring.

A great article by Okumura Nobuya:

A small Western restaurant in Tokyo that I occasionally visit is closing this summer. The owner is getting older and had previously decided to close while he was still healthy, "so as not to cause trouble for others." It's sad that the food, atmosphere, and fun conversations we had will now become memories of the scorching heat. It's difficult to quantify the value of "goodwill," which is imbued with the skill of a master chef, secret recipes, and trust. However, in accounting, it is treated as an intangible fixed asset. If a company with assets worth 20 million yen is acquired for 50 million yen, "goodwill" will be included in the 30 million yen difference between the market-valued net assets and the acquisition price.

Ootake beya was founded by Taihou, known as the "Great Yokozuna of the Showa Era." He was awarded the toshiyori "Taihou" in September 1969 and retired in May 1971. In December of the same year, he left Nishonoseki beya and established  "Taihou beya." In January 2004, his son-in-law, former sekiwake Takatouriki, became the Oyakata, and the heya's name was changed to Ootake beya. The current Oyakata took over in July 2010. Nine rikishi belong to the heya, including Taihou's grandsons Ouhou (25, third son), Mudouhou (23, fourth son) Naya (27, second son) and others,. According to Ootake, a direct disciple of Taihou, the idea of absorbing the heya into another heya emerged during this process. However, "I really wanted to preserve the name of the heya, which has its roots in Taihou beya." When the previous head of the heya ex-Takatouriki was fired from the Kyokai after a scandal and the heya faced a crisis regarding its survival, Ootake Oyakata was begged by Taihou, who bowed his head and pleaded with him: "Please take over the heya, I'm begging you." However, the Oyakata apparently shook his head not once, but twice, refusing. "I still regret making my Oyakata bow twice. I couldn't let the heya go bust after he had asked me so much." He showed a sense of responsibility for the weighty name he carried. In addition to the heya's kanban sign, there is also a sign reading "Taihou Dojo" at the entrance to the heya in Koto Ward, Tokyo. Another heya that has a sign outside at the entrance with another name is Tokitsukaze beya which also has a sign that reads "Futabayama dojo" in honor of the great Yokozuna Futabayama. Both attest to a a noble spirit that oversees the area in front of their gates.

When Futabayama founded his heya under the shikona "Tokitsukaze" (12th generation), some criticized him, claiming that it was the shikona of an Oyakata with a bad reputation. That Oyakata was the 11th Tokitsukaze, a former Komusubi named Kokukumonryuu who was a member of Tokitsukaze beya in Osaka. He was known for his gambling debts, fights, and fraud, and his misconduct led to him being renamed "Samatage" (obstruction) before the January 1909 basho by his Oyakata, stating that he was "only causing trouble to the world." Despite this, he continued his misbehaving, eventually traveling to Manchuria and becoming a bandit. However, when the 10th Tokitsukaze passed away, Kokumonryuu, who had not been seen for years, suddenly reappeared upon hearing the news. As the oldest member of the heya, he was chosen to inherit the "Tokitsukaze name." However, he was lacking a sense of responsibility, and disappeared again. Futabayama was a member of the Tokyo Sumo lineage and had no relation to the previous Tokitsukaze, but accepted the offer to take over, saying, "All toshiyori miyoseki are the same. If it's a bad name, I'll make it better." 

Each generation has its own unique name and reputation.
 

Edited August 17 by Kintamayama

[mugatake 59]

Kinta-san, for the name of the 11th Tokitsukaze, I think you meant to write Kokumonryuu?  

Edited August 16 by mugatake

[Kintamayama 46,753]

6 hours ago, mugatake said:

Kinta-san, for the name of the 11th Tokitsukaze, I think you meant to write Kokumonryuu?  

Yes I did. Fixed. Now I know at least one person is actually reading this..

Edited August 17 by Kintamayama