Were Hakuho and Miyabiyama robbed?

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

So, what do you think?

[Jesinofuji 11]

Yes and yes.

Pre-basho statements led the world to believe Hakuho would be promoted if he were able to win 13. In the end, he was denied, not because his performance did not merit promotion, but because this basho another rikishi happened to have a better record. I strongly believe that promotion should be solely based on a rikishi's personal achievement. As it stands, circumstances and luck seem to play as big a part in Yokozuna/Ozeki promotion these days. The fact that standards had been lowered in the past for certian waning Ozeki isn't something I'd like to think about either.

I have never been a fan of Miyabiyama. He's been my favorite rikishi to root against. With 10 wins this basho, he has 34 in 3 tourneys. That's not just enough, its enough plus one win. He finished the basho on a 5 win streak. To me, that counts for something. I think alot of this has to do with the fact that there are already too many Ozeki. This too doesn't have anything to do with Miyabiyama's personal achievement, it has more to do with 'luck'. If anything the fact that there are 5 Ozeki should be a plus considering the competition he had to face, not to mention the fact that all 5 participated this basho.

[Azumashida 1]

Is "too many ozeki" really a factor? After all, a yokozuna is an ozeki as well, and we've had more than 6 yokozuna + ozeki in the past... Should we buy the argument that "if Hakuho had been promoted to yokozuna, Miyabiyama would have had more of a chance to be promoted to ozeki"? I would not think so, but what do our enlightened members think?

Edit: as for the poll itself, I think there are several questions, and I would probably have different answers for "whether they were robbed" (no) and "whether their performance deserves promotion" (something between yes and no). As a result, I did not answer the poll...

Edited July 24, 2006 by Azumaryu

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

Is "too many ozeki" really a factor? After all, a yokozuna is an ozeki as well, and we've had more than 6 yokozuna + ozeki in the past... Should we buy the argument that "if Hakuho had been promoted to yokozuna, Miyabiyama would have had more of a chance to be promoted to ozeki"? I would not think so, but what do our enlightened members think?

Edit: as for the poll itself, I think there are several questions, and I would probably have different answers for "whether they were robbed" (no) and "whether their performance deserves promotion" (something between yes and no). As a result, I did not answer the poll...

Please ignore the word

[Azumashida 1]

Please ignore the word

[Mark Buckton 1]

no and no

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

I will explain my rationale for voting no in each case.

First of all, I believe that it is not just the number of wins that is important, but also the quality of sumo that matters.

In Miyabiyama's case, please refer to the following:

Record for this hon-basho

Record for last 6 hon-basho

In this basho he got one victory for free with a no contest, and then he had 4 hatakikomis and 2 hikiotoshis, so 7 of 10 victories were, how shall I put it, somewhat less than stellar sumo. In the last 6 basho his record was 90-58, so he averaged 9-6 per basho, but again, lots of hatakikomi and hikiotoshi victories mixed in there. I think maybe he could do about as well as some of the other incumbant ozekis, but that's not saying much. Other than Hakuho, none have been performing up to expectations recently.

In Hakuho's case, he still has only one career yusho, so I don't think he should get the benefit of the doubt yet. If a rikishi with 3 or 4 yusho already under his belt had duplicated Hakuho's last 4 string of bashos, that would be different, but Hakuho still has more dues to pay before I think he gets the benefit of the doubt.

[Shibouyama 1]

My views coincide with Jesinofuji's above.

The NSK said 13 wins would be enough for Hakuho, and 34 wins over 3 basho should have been good enough for Miyabiyama.

Why is the 'quality' of the win important for promotion, but not for demotion? I'd like to see it go both ways. "Well, kadoban ozeki Chiyotaikai did get 8 wins, but 7 of those were by hatakikomi, so we're going to go ahead and demote him." The Ozeki ranks wouldn't be so crowded now if this were the case.

Why can't the rules be a little clearer?

NHK: "Well, 13 wins should be enough for promotion (unless those of us deciding this should happen to be having a bad day, for any reason at all).

(Applauding...)

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Kinda like any job interview, ain't it? These are the base qualifications (i.e. 13 win yusho equivalent; 33 wins over 3 basho while ranked in sanyaku), but just because you meet them is no guarantee you will be the successful interviewee. The employer always reserves the right to award the position to a more qualified applicant, or to choose to wait...

[Jakusotsu 6,390]

In the end, he was denied, not because his performance did not merit promotion, but because this basho another rikishi happened to have a better record.

I was starting to point out that this other rikishi made a difference by beating all opposition while Hakuho didn't - but then I realized that Asashoryu didn't have to take on Asasekiryu...

Unfair or irrelevant?

[Tony 16]

No and no!

[Elenrian 0]

(Applauding...) and (Applauding...) ....

Hakuho didn't win the yusho, he beat Asashoryu, but Asa had already won (Applauding...) . Plus, Asashoryu might not be fully healed (his elbow problem.... (Applauding...) ).... Hakuho must wait awhile longer!

Miyabiyama, huuuh, I never liked him!! He has already been Ozeki and I don't want him to redo the same "performance".... (Applauding...)

[Shibouyama 1]

Well, here's one more reason Hakuho was robbed.

At my health club, I jumped into a conversation about sumo. Some older guy (who else?) was saying that Hakuho wouldn't get promoted because you need two yusho in a row to get it. I jumped in, proudly informing him that THE Nihon Sumo Kyoukai, no less, had said that if Hakuho got 13 wins he could be promoted. (proud of my esoteric knowledge, whispers of "kuwashii i i , kuwashii i i" could be heard throughout the locker room)

Well, he got the 13, but not the promo. Now, I look like an idiot. (maybe I was one all along)

The NSK is making me look bad.

(I was stupid...)

[Shibouyama 1]

Kinda like any job interview, ain't it? These are the base qualifications (i.e. 13 win yusho equivalent; 33 wins over 3 basho while ranked in sanyaku), but just because you meet them is no guarantee you will be the successful interviewee. The employer always reserves the right to award the position to a more qualified applicant, or to choose to wait...

And I reserve the right to ignore patronizing comments like this.

Picture a wizened old man with a young boy sitting on his lap.

Old Man: "Son, if there's one thing you need to learn, it's that LIFE ISN'T FAIR."

Young Boy: "Wow. Thank you for teaching me that enlightening and invaluable lesson."

You could just have spared me this, couldn't you have?

[Anjoboshi 2]

An interesting scenario and promotion question is if they would have promoted Hakuho if ...

... both rikishi were 13-1 before last day

... and Hakuho on senshuraku beaten by Asashoryu

The atmosphere of the yusho obviously another, nevertheless the results of the rikishi the same. Should Hakuhos performance then be judged differently?

In my opinion there are enough reasons for both sides (promote / don't promote) - also in Miyabiyamas' case. Therefore I didn't vote.

[Fujisan 533]

I voted Yes for Hakuho and No for Miyabiyama.

Like most I believe Hakuho will be a good if not great Yokozuna and like Asashoryu before him he will only get better with promotion so why not now?

Dont misunderstand me on Miyabiyama because I am a fully paid up member of the 'Miyabiyama fan club' but I am not convinced by his surge of wins for promotion and I fear he will not stay the course as an Ozeki for a 2nd time.

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

Well, here's one more reason Hakuho was robbed.

At my health club, I jumped into a conversation about sumo. Some older guy (who else?) was saying that Hakuho wouldn't get promoted because you need two yusho in a row to get it. I jumped in, proudly informing him that THE Nihon Sumo Kyoukai, no less, had said that if Hakuho got 13 wins he could be promoted. (proud of my esoteric knowledge, whispers of "kuwashii i i , kuwashii i i" could be heard throughout the locker room)

Well, he got the 13, but not the promo. Now, I look like an idiot. (maybe I was one all along)

The NSK is making me look bad.

(I was stupid...)

I hadn't paid attention to the pre-basho statements, but who exactly do you mean by "the NSK said..." and what exactly did they say? Are you sure this is a fact and not merely hearsay?

[Shibouyama 1]

Well, here's one more reason Hakuho was robbed.

At my health club, I jumped into a conversation about sumo. Some older guy (who else?) was saying that Hakuho wouldn't get promoted because you need two yusho in a row to get it. I jumped in, proudly informing him that THE Nihon Sumo Kyoukai, no less, had said that if Hakuho got 13 wins he could be promoted. (proud of my esoteric knowledge, whispers of "kuwashii i i , kuwashii i i" could be heard throughout the locker room)

Well, he got the 13, but not the promo. Now, I look like an idiot. (maybe I was one all along)

The NSK is making me look bad.

(I was stupid...)

I hadn't paid attention to the pre-basho statements, but who exactly do you mean by "the NSK said..." and what exactly did they say? Are you sure this is a fact and not merely hearsay?

Try our wonderful search function.

This thread

or this thread

(Holiday feeling...)

[Zuikakuyama 1]

No for Hakuho and Yes for Miyabiyama.

Hakuho has not gotten the (20 years old) tradition of 2 consequetive yushos. And he did not have enough prior yushos or long-term experience to come under the benefit of the 13 win yusho equivalent rule that had been applied to Kaio and Tochiazuma. I say let him prove himself like Takanohana over 10 years ago.

I felt that circumstances outside of his control led to his non-promotion (whether it be the 5 ozekis currently on the banzuke or his prior bad ozeki stint). Looking at his numbers alone, he more than qualified. If the person having this record was someone like Wakanosato, Kotomitsuki or even a young gun like Baruto or Kisenosato, I dont think they would be denied.

[Asashosakari 20,225]

I voted the same as Zuikakuyama, and for pretty much the same reasons.

[aderechelsea 125]

"No" for Hakuho but "yes" for Miyabiyama ....

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

Try our wonderful search function.

This thread

or this thread

(Yusho winner...)

Thanks for the links, I wouldn't know what to search for (or have the time or motivation anyway).

But, those 2 threads don't say that "NSK said" that 13 wins would be enough.

IIRC, first the shinpan-bu (judges committee) has to recommend a candidate to the YDC, and in this case it appears that the shinpan-bu had set the bar a little higher than some members of the YDC.

Actually the YDC is, I believe, not really part of the NSK exactly, but a committee of outsiders who serve a limited term.

In any case, pre-basho hearsay is not binding.

[Shibouyama 1]

Try our wonderful search function.

This thread

or this thread

(Yusho winner...)

Thanks for the links, I wouldn't know what to search for (or have the time or motivation anyway).

But, those 2 threads don't say that "NSK said" that 13 wins would be enough.

IIRC, first the shinpan-bu (judges committee) has to recommend a candidate to the YDC, and in this case it appears that the shinpan-bu had set the bar a little higher than some members of the YDC.

Actually the YDC is, I believe, not really part of the NSK exactly, but a committee of outsiders who serve a limited term.

In any case, pre-basho hearsay is not binding.

Well, the first thread is about Kitanoumi, the head of the NSK, saying 13 wins should/may/might be enough.

The second is the head of the YDC saying the same thing.

While not exactly a carved in stone promise, and they are intentionally unclear, it's hardly hearsay.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Shibouyama

[slt 9]

No and no, for reasons already posted here.

I'd also like to stress that while these recent "exceptions" for yusho-equivalents, concerning our veteran Ozeki, were NOT applied in practice, as Tochiazuma and Kaio all failed to achieve even the minimum that the NSK said would be neccessary to consider them for promotion to Yokozuna. Let's stop taking these "examples" for granted, as they are purely indications of the NSK's possible intentions, nothing more.

[serv 0]

I gave my poll and I agree w/ the poll's current results.

Even though Hakuho's been an excellent Ozeki, he hasn't yet demonstrated the Yokozuna rank sumo. so, I'm glad that NSK didn't promote him after Nagoya basho.

However, I'm lil bit sad about the decision NSK made on Miyabiyama's return Ozeki promotion. He's been showing very good ozeki-quality sumo and i'm afriad that it's getting the harder for him to get promoted as he's getting older. NSK should've promoted him Ozeki this time, and i believe all the fan would agree w/ the promotion.