Kotoshogiku looking good

[Randomitsuki 2,843]

From Rikishi Talk:

Harumafuji (8-6) losing to Kotoshogiku by yorikiri, 4.6 sec

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(Unable to become the wall to Kotosohgiku's ozeki promotion challenge.)

"The best thing was that I was so looking forward to this one. Unfortunately I couldn't display my sumo."

If the bout was fixed, Harumafuji's comment makes an entirely different sense.

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

are you implying that harumafuji threw the match? why would he do that? im interested

Not only am I implying, rather I'm claiming. Yeah, why? Japan needs an Ozeki is probably the simplest answer.

I'm not asking anyone to follow my line of thought, but what I ask you to do is grab the vid of the bout and go frame by frame after tachi-ai. Not only is HF's opening stance next to suicidal, he's then also starting to actively hop into the air for whatever silly reason (I think it meant to show that he *really* couldn't reach the outside grip, even though he was *really* trying. Shortly before the hopping (with which the Geek had nothing to do at all), HF's right hand slips over Geek's mawashi with thoroughly stretched out fingers. He's not even trying to get it.

Go ahead and watch it.

Silly, silly, silly.

Let's hope after Kisenosato's promotion post-Kyusho we are done with all this annoying method acting, at least for a while.

DISclaimer: I'm not saying that the Geek wouldn't have won otherwise (Re: Their h2h record), but HF really made bloody well sure he would.

[Kuroyama 715]

Tough call. That tachiai was a serious "WTF" moment and it's hard to believe it was legit. On the other hand, would a thrown match look a bit less bizarre? It would have made much more sense to let himself get gabburi'd out after a strong tachiai. No one would have batted an eye at that.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Kuroyama

[Treblemaker 254]

I'm in total agreement with YBF. When have you ever, EVER, seen a tachi-ai that looked that bizarre? I'll tell you: Wakanoho. And while that guy was inventive (in a Young and Foolish way), he was no HF.

And OK, HF is creative enough to be called the "Einstein" of the sumo world, but seriously....? Geeku could have/might as well have been pushing Stevie Wonder out of the ring. Or Joan Rivers. Or Tiny Tim. HF is the same yotz the just claimed a yusho 2 months ago. And he now looks like that? The Mad Dr Strange (even now in Juryo) would have put up a better fight.

Sorry, this one was so signed, sealed and delivered. There's really no logical explanation for that kind of petticoat sumo by HF.

YMMV.

[Harry 67]

Most. Bizarre. Tachi-ai. Ever.

[Jonosuke 28]

Yes yes this is all true.

After suffering his first loss to Kotoshogiku three years ago at the 2008 Nagoya Basho, then Ama decided that he had to make a pact with Shogiku if he were to make a serious run for ozeki. So he told Giku, if he ever needed one for ozeki promotion he would be there for him one day. So Shogiku went on to lose to Ama the next Aki and Kyushu and as they say the rest is history as Ama became ozeki and Harumafuji after the 2008 Kyushu. For Shogiku that one day came on Day 14 2011 Aki.

Medetashi, medetashi.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Most. Bizarre. Tachi-ai. Ever.

Italy: 5.5

Canada: 5.8

Finland: 5.3

USA: 5.9

East Germany: 3.4

[HenryK 38]

Kaio retires, there is no Japanese Ozeki -- and whoops, the fella who got in an average of barely 8 when S-M3 with nhis one-trick pony sumo suddenly puts in 11 on a regular basis.

Too much "chance" for my liking. Not that we didn't know it already, but this is rotten to the core.

[Asashosakari 19,669]

whoops, the fella who got in an average of barely 8 when S-M3 with nhis one-trick pony sumo suddenly puts in 11 on a regular basis.

I agree, Ama's ozeki run was fake as hell.

[Treblemaker 254]

whoops, the fella who got in an average of barely 8 when S-M3 with nhis one-trick pony sumo suddenly puts in 11 on a regular basis.

I agree, Ama's ozeki run was fake as hell.

Ozeki runs are like political campaigns... You have to be in the right place at the right time and perform well over a short time (say, 6-8 months) and you're in.

The irony? Ozekis last longer at their positions than most Japanese Prime Ministers. Or governments, for that matter. And once seated in office, complacency/incompetency/mediocrity reigns in both cases.

[Kintamayama 45,534]

Just to go on record that this is total bollocks. It was legit. Harumafuji, who was on a Yokozuna run, just totally lost it after he lost it on around day 4. I suggest you watch all of his bouts since his third loss. They all look "suspect". He just lost his will to fight for now, and understandable it is.. And Peterao, welcome back. You were sorely missed.

Really getting boring over at Sumotalk lately huh, YBF and Treble..?? (Yucky...)

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Conspiracies or not, whether all his bouts in last 5 basho have some kind of agenda or not, the fact is though that he has good record against ALL sanyaku/high maegashira rikishi including quite a big advantage against Harumafuji and 10-10 against Baruto. Only Hakuho has been very difficult as he has been to all rikishi and Tokitenku is some kind of nemesis to him. Other than those, he has shown he is second to nobody. And he HAS improved his sumo a lot in last year or so. He has become formidable even in migiyotsu and beats everyone in hidariyotsu when he gets his gappuri going and even without that, he is almost invincible from that position.

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

Flogging the dead horse any more I won't.

[Treblemaker 254]

Flogging the dead horse any more I won't.

Beginning to talk like Yoda you are?

[Chankosan 0]

I too agree with YBF that it was staged, but I am willing to let it slide for the sake of the national sport. Anyway, Baruto's devastating throw on Day 15 should have made it clear to everyone just how far Kotoshogiku is out of his true league. Peter Principle anyone? ;)

That said, I have never seen so much yaocho-free sumo in my almost 20 years of watching the sport! It is a dream come true for fans of the SPORT of sumo and not just the CULTURE of sumo (I am both). The difference on senshuraku is palpable -- it is so refreshing to see that a 7-7 does not automatically become an 8-7. And is it just me, or is there now a relative dearth of hatakikomi kimarites? Someone should really do a number-crunching follow-up to the Freakanomics findings to prove that there has been a paradigm shift in sumo since the scandal blew up.

[Kintamayama 45,534]

I too agree with YBF that it was staged, but I am willing to let it slide for the sake of the national sport. Anyway, Baruto's devastating throw on Day 15 should have made it clear to everyone just how far Kotoshogiku is out of his true league. Peter Principle anyone? ;)

Indeed, waaay out of his league. Past head to heads were 10-10 before this basho, Kotoshougiku winning the last three. Maybe the fact that Kotoshougiku's promotion was already decided and Baruto was bit more motivated had something to do with it-in any case it was by no means a one-sided affair.

[Chankosan 0]

I too agree with YBF that it was staged, but I am willing to let it slide for the sake of the national sport. Anyway, Baruto's devastating throw on Day 15 should have made it clear to everyone just how far Kotoshogiku is out of his true league. Peter Principle anyone? ;)

Indeed, waaay out of his league. Past head to heads were 10-10 before this basho, Kotoshougiku winning the last three. Maybe the fact that Kotoshougiku's promotion was already decided and Baruto was bit more motivated had something to do with it-in any case it was by no means a one-sided affair.

Unfortunately, the past records are tainted by the rampant yaocho. So without reviewing again those 20 Baruto-Kotoshogiku matches, I can't comment on the reliability of the 10-10 record as an indicator of true ability. Especially given my strong impression that Baruto and Kotooshu were Ozekis on the take in the old days (Kaio was on the "give" and Kotomitsuki, well...) I suspect that the Baruto match would have been arranged had Kotoshogiku not managed to defeat a freshly Kisenosato-injured Hakuho...

BUT, what do you think about my much bigger picture point about the palpable change in the "character" of sensharaku and the apparent precipitious decline in hatakikomi kimarties in the post-scandal sumo world? Surely that has been apparent to many others besides me??

If no one else perceives this (and it should be empirically demonstrable a la Freakonomics), then it is proof positive that sumo will slide back to its old ways after a few more basho, since there will be no repercussions for yaocho since most fans of sumo can (will?) not see it -- at least no repercussions without cell phone records, and I can assure you that the kyokai has solved that problem! Oh well, I am really enjoying all the real sumo while it lasts...

[Kintamayama 45,534]

BUT, what do you think about my much bigger picture point about the palpable change in the "character" of sensharaku and the apparent precipitious decline in hatakikomi kimarties in the post-scandal sumo world? Surely that has been apparent to many others besides me??

Definitely agree with you on that-numbers don't lie. I already noticed that in July, where quite a few 7-7 rikishi went MK. Not so much the hatakikomi, since not all hatakikomi mean the same-more about the quality and substance of the bouts, and the mere fact that the guys who were "supposed" to lose don't.

[Chankosan 0]

BUT, what do you think about my much bigger picture point about the palpable change in the "character" of sensharaku and the apparent precipitious decline in hatakikomi kimarties in the post-scandal sumo world? Surely that has been apparent to many others besides me??

Definitely agree with you on that-numbers don't lie. I already noticed that in July, where quite a few 7-7 rikishi went MK. Not so much the hatakikomi, since not all hatakikomi mean the same-more about the quality and substance of the bouts, and the mere fact that the guys who were "supposed" to lose don't.

Whew! Thanks for that reality check Kintamayama. So I'm NOT alone. If that change (in the numbers) is real, then -- as I said before -- I can let any perceived tinkering on the part of the Kyokai for the greater good of the national sport slide. I am so happy to be seeing almost exclusively "listful" matches that the rest is negligible.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say that such tinkering -- as in the case of ensuring a new Japanese Ozedi ASAP -- is downright DESIRABLE. That is, it helps to ensure the popularity, and hence survival, of the sport. If it must exist at some level (and it must), then I only ask that it be used judiciously for this purpose and not the wholesale backscratching system that existed prior to the scandal and that heavily tainted the quality of the product.

[Kintamayama 45,534]

Whew! Thanks for that reality check Kintamayama. So I'm NOT alone. If that change (in the numbers) is real, then -- as I said before -- I can let any perceived tinkering on the part of the Kyokai for the greater good of the national sport slide. I am so happy to be seeing almost exclusively "listful" matches that the rest is negligible.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say that such tinkering -- as in the case of ensuring a new Japanese Ozedi ASAP -- is downright DESIRABLE. That is, it helps to ensure the popularity, and hence survival, of the sport. If it must exist at some level (and it must), then I only ask that it be used judiciously for this purpose and not the wholesale backscratching system that existed prior to the scandal and that heavily tainted the quality of the product.

I totally disagree with the tinkering part. There was a lot going on this basho - two Ozeki and one Yokozuna candidates, plus some really strong joi up and comers who are from the new generation - I truly don't believe there was any tinkering at all. Harumafuji came into the basho far from healthy with his ass-boil and probably other stuff. A win given away by Harumafuji would not have been enough. And if there was tinkering, Baruto should have taken the fall as well to make it look even better. We'll never really know, now will we..

So, my summary, no tinkering, more honest matches, and fun basho.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Treblemaker 254]

Whew! Thanks for that reality check Kintamayama. So I'm NOT alone. If that change (in the numbers) is real, then -- as I said before -- I can let any perceived tinkering on the part of the Kyokai for the greater good of the national sport slide. I am so happy to be seeing almost exclusively "listful" matches that the rest is negligible.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say that such tinkering -- as in the case of ensuring a new Japanese Ozedi ASAP -- is downright DESIRABLE. That is, it helps to ensure the popularity, and hence survival, of the sport. If it must exist at some level (and it must), then I only ask that it be used judiciously for this purpose and not the wholesale backscratching system that existed prior to the scandal and that heavily tainted the quality of the product.

I totally disagree with the tinkering part. There was a lot going on this basho - two Ozeki and one Yokozuna candidates, plus some really strong joi up and comers who are from the new generation - I truly don't believe there was any tinkering at all. Harumafuji came into the basho far from healthy with his ass-boil and probably other stuff. A win given away by Harumafuji would not have been enough. And if there was tinkering, Baruto should have taken the fall as well to make it look even better. We'll never really know, now will we..

So, my summary, no tinkering, more honest matches, and fun basho.

Well, even if one were to take the view that all was legit and above board, there were some matches which defied explanation. And that HF one was definitely in that category.

How else can you explain the dramatic change in on-dohyo behaviour of someone who really showed they were yusho-worthy 60 days ago, then appear to be Juryo-worthy through much of this basho? Ass-pain and all....

HF is earning a very good living working 90 days a year at a job which normally takes between 0.5-5.0 seconds of hard labour per day. The rest is training and kvetching. At least give the fans a good effort, win or lose.

I still don't believe all is above board, but as I would normally say, YMMV.

[Asashosakari 19,669]

How else can you explain the dramatic change in on-dohyo behaviour of someone who really showed they were yusho-worthy 60 days ago, then appear to be Juryo-worthy through much of this basho? Ass-pain and all....

I think his career record is all the explanation you need. It's not like the 14-1 was the norm and the 8-7 the outlier, it's actually the exact other way around... Harumafuji is an (above-average) ozeki who doesn't perform overly well under intense pressure, like so many before him. He's not Asashoryu II, no matter how much people want to convince themselves of it.

HF is earning a very good living working 90 days a year at a job which normally takes between 0.5-5.0 seconds of hard labour per day. The rest is training and kvetching. At least give the fans a good effort, win or lose.

His five straight wins after he was definitely out of the tsuna race were very enjoyable to me, and the Baruto and Hak bouts were nice, too. Of course, I never have particularly high expectations of the guy, so perhaps I'm just more easily satisfied than others.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Asojima 2,874]

Seems like a good time to trot out the old Yusho/Survival reality for Ozekis. Ozekis can only gain with 2 yushos. Nothing else will do them any good. They need 8 wins to survive. Any extraneous effort which does not contribute significantly toward gaining the yusho or an 8th win is a waste and constitutes an unnecessary risk of career ending injury.

[Jaak 7]

Looking at the level of the current ozeki...

Search for 3 basho runs of at least 33 total wins, with at least 11 in third and at least 10 in second basho, with ozeki status afterwards. (so excluding the yokozuna challenges).

All recent ozeki met the requirements once - Baruto, Ama, Kotomitsuki, Hakuho, Kotooshu, Tochiazuma.

But Kaio was the last ozeki to meet the ozeki challenge requirements while ozeki already. He did so repeatedly, until November 2004.

Chiyotaikai did it as well (last in March 2004), as did Takanonami.

Looking at the long term ozeki who eventually got tsuna, like Musashimaru (32 basho) and Wakanohana (29 basho) - what was their level while ozeki? And how do Kotooshu and Harumafuji compare?

[Kintamayama 45,534]

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