Kaio - should he stay or should he go now

[Jakusotsu 6,403]

I'm surprised, James! You must have been in the kokugikan often enough to hear the whole audience chanting for Kaio, and it's getting ever louder with each passing basho. They love to see him enter the dohyo, and that's all that counts in the end. He can't possibly be "besmirching the rank" when the people who pay for the whole thing are cheering.

I guess your view has been clouded by a certain Irishman's nagging. (Sign of approval...)

Edited March 25, 2009 by Jakusotsu

[James H 0]

I'm surprised, James! You must have been in the kokugikan often enough to hear the whole audience chanting for Kaio, and it's getting ever louder with each passing basho.

I thought of that... and it did cross my mind to compare him to Kitazakura, another golden oldie who gets rock star treatment. The difference, I think, is that Kitazakura is great because he is doing his best, he is putting everything into it, and that along with the salt throwing warms the crowds' cockles.

Kaio is a crowd pleaser, but as I argued, an ozeki has to be more than that. I said to John on the phone: when Kaio gets in the ring my spirits dip. I know whatever is about to happen is going to either be hugely underwhelming, suspicious or career threatening for someone else. To put it another way, Kaio vs Chiyotaikai in 2009 is my version of sumo hell.

I'm not entirely sure if I agree with the idea that if the people paying are cheering, then it's ok. The whole of San Francisco loved Barry Bonds. Crowds can be pretty dumb, in my experience. (Sign of approval...)

[Jakusotsu 6,403]

As compared to Kitazakura, Kaio doesn't always give his 100%, agreed. He knows when to make an effort or not. That might not be the ideal image of a sportsman, but I will readily cut the veteran some slack here, as long as he shows that he still has it once in a while.

On the other hand, Kitazakura's days of rock star treatment seem to be on the decline, wich might be due to his low rank and mostly empty seats at that time. In his last bout on Senshuraku in January, which could have easily been the end of his career, he hardly got any feedback from the crowd. In fact, he went pretty much unnoticed, wich was rather sad to watch. Perhaps he shouldn't have done a jikan-mae... (I am not worthy...)

[Fay 1,677]

I have to disagree.

In my opinion Kaio has every right to stay as long as he likes and as long as the others let him.

Just a look at our lower Sanyaku boys: None of them is able to finish with double digits to come even close to an ozeki promotion. Kyokutenho is already Mk, Baruto and Kisenosato are in danger of Mk. Even more mediocre than our Ozeki crew.

And some statistics too, thanks to Doitsu's database:

34% of Kaio's wins are the result of yorikiri technique, 5 % were kotenage.

In 2008/2009 7 wins were by kotenage, 27 by yorikiri, the rest others. So he doesn't depend too much on his kotenage, I think.

[Asashosakari 20,301]

On the other hand, Kitazakura's days of rock star treatment seem to be on the decline, wich might be due to his low rank and mostly empty seats at that time. In his last bout on Senshuraku in January, which could have easily been the end of his career, he hardly got any feedback from the crowd. In fact, he went pretty much unnoticed, wich was rather sad to watch.

Might this be a Tokyo vs. elsewhere thing? Kita's been getting a surprising amount of attention (to my webstream-trained ear anyway) this basho, and I also get the feeling that the Osaka/Nagoya/Kyushu crowds go even more nuts for Kaio than the Tokyo folks, who mostly seem to get fired up when Kaio's kadoban again (as he was during your January visit).

Just a look at our lower Sanyaku boys: None of them is able to finish with double digits to come even close to an ozeki promotion. Kyokutenho is already Mk, Baruto and Kisenosato are in danger of Mk. Even more mediocre than our Ozeki crew.

That's the wrong frame of reference. Disregarding the backscratching stuff for a moment, Kaio and Taikai's results are those of really good meatgrinder rikishi...for comparison, just take a look at Kaio's results in 1994. If they weren't already ozeki, nobody would lobby for them to become one based on their current results. And that's the problem - that they're perceived as ozeki in-rank-only. (And I'm saying that as somebody who's mostly in the "what the hell, let them hang on as long as they want" camp...)

I'd say we're due for a 1991/92-style massive clean-out in the top ranks, but then I've been expecting that for a couple of years now, so what do I know.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Asashosakari

[James H 0]

Regarding the whole "let them hang out until nature takes it course" position...

That's the whole point of my column. Ozeki are protected from the brutal meritocracy that everyone below them has to put up with. They also avoid the media hoopla that yokozuna put up with if they post anything as mediocre as 10 wins more than once in a blue moon... which to me isn't very fair.

I could as easily have written the column about Chiyotaikai, but Kaio's egregious kote nage's made him more culpable in my eyes...(the finer points of whether I am being oversensitive about this are pretty much covered by other people in the kaio nage thread, I think)

One way to make the situation less partial to underperforming ozeki would be to readjust the kadoban system. That may deter people from just sitting on the rank for years, taking up space, buying and selling wins and injuring wrestlers because that's the only kind of sumo they can do.

[Manekineko 200]

Split from original thread for obvious reasons.

Remember, remember, the 17th of January and related debate.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Manekineko

[Jejima 1,498]

There are very few rikishi left that are still around since I started watching sumo properly (excluding some UK Channel 4 stuff when I was a teenager), and Kaio is one of them. I liked him then, and I still like him. He disappoints a lot, especially when he does his little step backwards out of the dohyo, instead of being 'forced out' - but that is part of Kaio today. I also dislike it extremely when another rikishi suffers a serious injury because of his strength - but that is more the fault of the rules of sumo, than Kaio (or do I have my rose-tinted glasses on?).

I think, with his 5 yushos, Kaio has proved himself to be one of the greatest (if not the greatest) ozeki in the modern era to have never made Yokozuna.

I am hoping he will last out this year, and claim the Makunouchi number of basho record in his home-town basho of Kyushu in November, so that his name will be nailed into the history books.

But, as I alluded to, I was a fan of his when he was usually truly worth 10 wins min a decade ago - and perhaps none of us want to see our heroes riding into the sunset, as we secretly hope (in this case, almost certainly wrong), they still have one great basho left in them....

Kaio is a link to the great era of Takanohana and Akebono - and Wakanohana (they all started mae-zumo in the same basho).

When Kaio goes, I have a feeling (without checking), that Tosanoumi will be my only link to the first basho I watched on NHK in Japan.... Not that comforting (I am not worthy...)

So, I continue to cheer for him, whilst carefully not picking him for any sumo game.

Edit: Replaced 'okay' with intended 'ago' - although that sentence still feels poorly written (Gyoji...)

Edited March 25, 2009 by Jejima

[Doitsuyama 1,263]

Writing this article wasn't really necessary I think as the only thing you achieve is slapping him and his fans in the face for ultimately a rather selfish reason, your personal disagreement with his style. How about interviewing the affected rikishi (his opponents) and including some quotes from them? Your article is feeling quite hollow without that. I can't help but laugh when reading the statement from Irish amateur wrestler John Gunning who is so far from meeting Kaio on the dohyo that his statement is pretty much a red herring. And this was the best you had to offer on that subject (feelings from affected rikishi)?

I agree that Kaio vs Chiyotaikai is a pretty underwhelming match-up lately but this doesn't change his legacy by much considering he has been a part of the joi-jin camp since Haru 1994 which is 15 years or 91 basho by now. My guess is that you wasn't even aware of Ozumo back then - because you would write differently about Kaio otherwise.

[ilovesumo 12]

I would miss him very much. Not his "current" Sumo...it's him I would miss. To me he is a very important part of Sumo, kinda like a face of Sumo if you want so. There had been times I thought it would be better if he leaves (saving face and all that stuff I never really understood) , but to be honest...I cannot imagine Sumo without him. He was never my favorite - Musoyama, Shuzan, Mickey, Kaiho, Buyuzan, Hayateumi were, but it would hurt as much as loosing a favorite if he retires. So glad he will be Oyakata, so he wouldn't really leave our world.

[Jejima 1,498]

One way to make the situation less partial to underperforming ozeki would be to readjust the kadoban system.

It has recently been readjusted, when the 'kosho' rule was removed. When the kosho rule was in place, ozeki could take a basho break after leaving a previous basho mid-way because of injury, to fully recover, and then fight for their KK the following basho.

Now if an Ozeki leaves a basho mid-way because of injury, they have to turn up the next basho, whether fully fit or not, to defend their Ozeki status.

[Perhaps their fellow rikishi empathise with this? Can we trace the alleged formation of the OBSC to the time the kosho rule was scrubbed?]

[James H 0]

Writing this article wasn't really necessary

Well, that's true for starters. Nothing I write about sumo is necessary, and your suggestion that I ask people who have been on the receiving end of a kaio nage is a fair one.

But I wouldn't say I am slapping Kaio or his fans in the face, and I am not sure that ad hominem attacks on how long I have been a sumo fan (since September 1991 if it is that important) are really relevant.

It could be argued that the huge contrast between Kaio in his prime and what he is now supports the idea that he should go. Or, like Ilovesumo and a few other people, you can say that he is such a part of the sumo world and his achievements are such that we should cut him some slack.

In my columns (as opposed to my daily reports), I get to write stuff about things I see in sumo that interest me. Since I thought Kaio was getting an unnaturally warm round of applause in the sports press for his "miraculous" first week in Osaka, I thought I would make a counterargument that he is no longer fulfilling the minimum that the rank requires.

I'm glad it has got people talking - that's what it is supposed to do.

Re: The kosho system - I had completely forgotten about that - good point.

Edits: general stuff

Edited March 25, 2009 by James H

[Naganoyama 6,043]

A lot of people love Kaio. Sumo isn't just an activity which takes place in a private setting for the pleasure of a few privileged individuals, whether royalty or journalists (I am not worthy...), but something which takes place in public for the edification of that public. If the people want to see Kaio, why should he retire?

It's very easy to be a purist about this.

[Harry 67]

As the only KK ozeki this basho so far, why are we even asking the question about Kaio??? People want to see him and he can win so he should stay, in my opinion.

I'm a big Taikai fan and I'm sure he'll bounce back next basho with a KK like he always does but in Osaka he is the one who is not looking like he should stick around, sadly.

[Jejima 1,498]

Re: The kosho system - I had completely forgotten about that - good point.

Maybe an idea for a future column? What have been the effects of getting rid of the kosho system? It has been a few years now, so perhaps there has been enough time to take an objective look?

I look forward to reading your sumo columns - even if I don't always fully agree with your viewpoints ;-)

[James H 0]

Thank you.

Maybe an idea for a future column? What have been the effects of getting rid of the kosho system? It has been a few years now, so perhaps there has been enough time to take an objective look?

That's definitely something to look at. Will get my oompa lumpas researching it asap.

[madorosumaru 7]

My guess is that you [James] wasn't even aware of Ozumo back then - because you would write differently about Kaio otherwise.

Doitsu, I recognize and appreciate your knowledge of and dedication to sumo, but don't be so smug. I have been following sumo from before you were even in your nappies (and I don't mean mawashi). ;-) Compared to my friends that are sumo aficionados, you are a "newbie." I agree wholeheartedly with James, who has become a very insightful observer of sumo in a rather short time. I think his relative newness to sumo gives him a more objective perspective in regards to Kaio. Plain and simple, the current version of the ozeki is an absolute embarrassment.

Edited March 25, 2009 by madorosumaru

[ryafuji 825]

James, I wonder if you have any interest in sumo records? Personally I want Kaio to carry on because I would love to see him break the record for most makuuchi tournaments, which has stood for over 25 years, or maybe even most makuuchi wins, which would be extraordinary for a non-yokozuna. I'm firmly of the opinion that he has been such a great ozeki (the most successful ever?) that he has earned the right to carry on for as long as he likes. I think too much is made of supposedly "besmirching" the rank. I can think of many ozeki who have got by with a lot of 8-7s and 9-6s -- Hokutenyu and Asashio come immediately to mind. (It's also worth mentioning that Kaio has never had a make-koshi at ozeki rank, when he has completed 15 days.) Kaio is fulfilling the "minimum requirement" of the rank -- that's why he's still there. Ozeki aren't held to the same standards as the yokozuna, nor should they be.

Also I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that he has been using kotenage more because he is unable to win on the belt as much as he used to -- do you have any evidence for this?

Edited March 25, 2009 by ryafuji

[Asashosakari 20,301]

I can think of many ozeki who have got by with a lot of 8-7s and 9-6s -- Hokutenyu and Asashio come immediately to mind.

Those two are in different classes, though. Hokutenyu was the Kotooshu type, an underachieving mid-20s guy. Asashio's a fair comparison, and now that I look at it, his last two years or so might have been quite "backscratchy" at first glance (and even the time before isn't exactly a revelation)...

1986.11: 8-7 after 7-7

1987.05: 8-7 after 5-7

1987.09: 8-7 after 6-7

1987.11: 8-7 after 7-7

1988.03: 8-7 after 4-7

1988.07: 8-7 after 6-7

I think the main problem with Kaio (not so much Taikai yet, who at least was still competitive as of a year and a half ago) is that his decline phase has lasted so damn long already. The platonic ideal is probably something like Musoyama's career arc, minus the questionable kosho applications - 9-6 minimum with regular double-digits until mid-2002, then circa two years of underwhelming decline phase sumo, then gone. By contrast, Kaio's been in that territory for over three years now, since the beginning of 2006.

I think he'd get a lot less grief if his results still looked like they did in 2005 (4-6-5, 10-5, 5-1-9, 10-5, 0-4-11, 10-5)...sure he seemed to get injured in new and creative ways all the time that year, but he always put up a decent result when healthy. That's just not the case anymore the last 3+ years, and even his most ardent fans probably don't expect more than 8 wins from him in any given basho - and that's a problem. He's hung on so long that he's even beyond the point where you can reasonably hope for one last hurrah (see Taikai's Kyushu 2007), let alone expect one, and without that it's very hard to think of him as a proper ozeki any longer.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Bilu 0]

Kaio is becoming more and more a disgrace to the rank of Ozeki.

This is very sad as he once was a great Ozeki and he used to embody sumo in body and spirit.

The reason he's becoming a disgrace is pretty simple: he doesn't know when to step down.

He will finish this basho - at best - with a 9-6. And this basho is considered a good one for him.

Asashoryu got so much criticism for dishonoring the rank of Yokozuna. Most of it was legit.

However, I haven't read any comment by anyone from the sumo establishment regarding Kaio.

The point is that an Ozeki is shouldering the legacy of sumo along with the Yokozuna. To a lesser degree, but still.

Kaio - for at least 3 years now - does nothing but to hang in there.

It's the responsibility of an Ozeki to compete for the yusho at least once in a few bashos.

It's the responsibility of an Ozeki to win against a Yokozuna once in a few bashos (or at least give him a good run for the money).

It is the responsibility of an Ozeki to fight in a spirited and dignified manner.

If he doesn't - he just blemishes his rank and sumo.

An Ozeki shouldn't just hang in there.

His popularity has nothing to do with it - Asashryu is popular but that doesn't stop the criticizm.

His seniority has nothing to do with it - it only means he has more responsibility.

If he wants to hang in there for the rest of eternity, then he can stop the scratching, lose his rank in two bashos, and continue from there.

Takanonami did that (lost his rank) and fought on for a year or two, and was very much respected.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Plain and simple, the current version of the ozeki is an absolute embarrassment.

never a more accurate 13 words penned on the forum. And Bilu above - correct. Spot on.

Kaio should have gone in 2005. His 04 yusho was against a largely absent / injured sanyaku and although he scored quite well after that has been shameful ever since.

Great piece by James. Bet the amateur rikishi quoted is feeling relieved there was no mention of the arm being broken by a 10 year old! Ne, Nish? ;-)

Doits - there is also the concept of James being far closer to the action and 'feeling' it more but that is never a popular concept to raise on SF.

IIRC you have seen just one live basho in your life (compared to multiple although I have no idea how many for James - I imagine the 91 comment was the London Jungyo and arrival in Japan came 5-10 years later given his rough age) following sumo, but I know that doesn't make you any less of a fan than James.

It might, in my view or in the view of some lucky enough to see sumo up close give a different perspective. I first saw a basho live in early 1997, and although I recall being interested in TV footage before that cannot imagine remaining a fan only by watching TV basho after basho, never having seen it live. I do greatly respect those fans for whom the love of the sport never fades even though they don't have the chance to see it in person too often - if ever.

BTW - were you 'even aware' of sumo back in 94? I know the UK had it on TV late 80s? early 90s? but think it had faded by 94. Germany?

[ryafuji 825]

Kaio is becoming more and more a disgrace to the rank of Ozeki.

This is very sad as he once was a great Ozeki and he used to embody sumo in body and spirit.

The reason he's becoming a disgrace is pretty simple: he doesn't know when to step down.

He will finish this basho - at best - with a 9-6. And this basho is considered a good one for him.

Asashoryu got so much criticism for dishonoring the rank of Yokozuna. Most of it was legit.

However, I haven't read any comment by anyone from the sumo establishment regarding Kaio.

The point is that an Ozeki is shouldering the legacy of sumo along with the Yokozuna. To a lesser degree, but still.

Kaio - for at least 3 years now - does nothing but to hang in there.

It's the responsibility of an Ozeki to compete for the yusho at least once in a few bashos.

It's the responsibility of an Ozeki to win against a Yokozuna once in a few bashos (or at least give him a good run for the money).

It is the responsibility of an Ozeki to fight in a spirited and dignified manner.

If he doesn't - he just blemishes his rank and sumo.

An Ozeki shouldn't just hang in there.

His popularity has nothing to do with it - Asashryu is popular but that doesn't stop the criticizm.

His seniority has nothing to do with it - it only means he has more responsibility.

If he wants to hang in there for the rest of eternity, then he can stop the scratching, lose his rank in two bashos, and continue from there.

Takanonami did that (lost his rank) and fought on for a year or two, and was very much respected.

I think you're being way too harsh and also holding Kaio to a standard that not even the Sumo Association do. The ozeki do not "shoulder the legacy of sumo along with the yokozuna". The yokozuna shoulder it alone. Taiho used to talk about the loneliness at the top. Chiyonofuji said that even an ozeki would not understand what it feels like to be a yokzouna. A yokozuna is expected to retire if his performances are regularly below par; there is no such expectation for an ozeki. There is no Ozeki Deliberation Council. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the Sumo Association publicly criticise an ozeki for not not getting ten wins or not challenging for a yusho. The expectations on a yokozuna are so much greater that I don't really think they're comparable.

[Shomishuu 0]

If he wants to hang in there for the rest of eternity, then he can stop the scratching, lose his rank in two bashos, and continue from there.

Takanonami did that (lost his rank) and fought on for a year or two, and was very much respected.

I'm not quite sure I follow this. Implying that Takanonami lost his rank on purpose is a real stretch, in view of the fact that he got it right back. Of course he lost it again, but it's another stretch to assume he spent the next four years NOT trying to get it back again - and then another long leap to assume that if he HAD regained it again, that he would've immediately retired.

It's hard to dump on Kaio for hanging on when history shows that's what ozeki do when they can (as has been well documented earlier here). Sure he's done it longer than anyone else, but all of those hangers-on would've done the same, if only they could. Shall we just automatically take the longest-running hanger-on and berate him, whoever he might be?

It's true the system allows this to happen, but why single out one guy, just because he's the one still around? Before we can even start down that road, let's consider this: Let's say there were no ranks, just the best 20 or so rikishi going at each other for 15 days, 6 times a year. Would the likes of Aminishiki, Baruto, Kisenosato, Goeido, Kotoshogiku, Kyokutenho et al, be outperforming Kaio, basho in and basho out?

IF the answer is no, to say that Kaio is sullying the ozeki rank is stretching things since he's still outperforming everyone below ozeki.

That leaves the kotenage issue, which the NSK could deal with, if they cared to (remember Raiden?) But as long as they don't, he's not the culprit - they are.

Lumping several tenuous arguments to make one strong case is sometimes tempting, but usually not very accurate.

[Asashosakari 20,301]

Takanonami did that (lost his rank) and fought on for a year or two, and was very much respected.

Four years, actually... And there is always some public nay-saying when a veteran ozeki (i.e. not short-termers like Dejima or Miyabiyama) decides to keep fighting on. The difference between "an ozeki should not fall to juryo" and "an ozeki should not fall to maegashira" is one of degree, not of kind. The first is nearly an outright taboo, but that doesn't mean the second is perfectly fine.

It's true the system allows this to happen, but why single out one guy, just because he's the one still around? Before we can even start down that road, let's consider this: Let's say there were no ranks, just the best 20 or so rikishi going at each other for 15 days, 6 times a year. Would the likes of Aminishiki, Baruto, Kisenosato, Goeido, Kotoshogiku, Kyokutenho et al, be outperforming Kaio, basho in and basho out?

IF the answer is no, to say that Kaio is sullying the ozeki rank is stretching things since he's still outperforming everyone below ozeki.

That's begging the question, namely by assuming that there's an ideal number of ozeki roughly similar to what we've had these last few years. Kaio being better than some collection of non-ozeki doesn't mean he's deserving of the rank. In the current competitive landscape the "proper" number of ozeki may well be three or even fewer.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Shomishuu 0]

That's begging the question, namely by assuming that there's an ideal number of ozeki roughly similar to what we've had these last few years. Kaio being better than some collection of non-ozeki doesn't mean he's deserving of the rank. In the current competitive landscape the "proper" number of ozeki may well be three or even fewer.

In what manner would the proper number be determined, on an ongoing basis? There has never been a proper number, and given the stringent requirements for ascension to ozeki, in effect it wouldn't be a proper number, it would be a maximum number. A few years ago, when Miyabiyama was almost the sixth ozeki, was there a serious suggestion that one of the existing ozeki should retire if he got the promotion?

In the end, the proper number would be the result of a subjective judgment that someone just 'doesn't belong.' It seems that is what we have right now, anyway.

Or have I misunderstood what you've said?