Kotooshu

[salle 11]

Lately, it's not even been a minimum of two back to back yushos-we've heard talk of a yusho and a yusho equivalent, a yusho and a ketteisen, a yusho and a strong jun-yusho-you name it, we heard it.

I have to admit I hate that deterioration of promotion criteria we experienced last years. Maybe it's not something new, but I realized it recently. Two consequent yusho criteria is straightforward and simple. Anything " .. or equivalent" smells as cheating around in attempt to favour particular rikishi.

Just my 2c

[Bishonohana 0]

(Dripping sweat...) (Nodding yes...) I AM ecstatic!! !!!! :-D (Yusho winner...) I always believed in you!! :-)

[Kintamayama 45,565]

Kitanoumi rijicho, asked if Nagoya will be a tsunatori basho for Kotooushuu: "There's still one bout to go..". When reminded that Osh beat both Yokozuna, Kitanoumi added, "That can be taken into consideration..". Hanaregoma Oyakata acknowledges that there is a chance for a tsunatori basho as well. As a reminder, when Tochiazuma came back from kadoban in 2006 to win the yusho, his next basho was officially considered a tsunatori basho. But that was when there was only one yokozuna, the reporter reminds us.

[Kintamayama 45,565]

Lately, it's not even been a minimum of two back to back yushos-we've heard talk of a yusho and a yusho equivalent, a yusho and a ketteisen, a yusho and a strong jun-yusho-you name it, we heard it.

I have to admit I hate that deterioration of promotion criteria we experienced last years. Maybe it's not something new, but I realized it recently. Two consequent yusho criteria is straightforward and simple. Anything " .. or equivalent" smells as cheating around in attempt to favour particular rikishi.

Just my 2c

I agree, but luckily for at least the both of us, they never had to go through with the lowering of the criteria lately..

[vpl 0]

I think the yusho equivalent was brought up when talking about Hakuho's promotion probably because there had been a sole yokozuna for a long time.

Now we have two yokozuna so the promotion criteria are stricter and i doubt that anything less than 2 consecutive yusho are enough (maybe except losing via kettei-sen next basho and winning the yusho the basho after that).

[Asashosakari 19,693]

Erm, what's with all the "recent lowering of the promotion standards" talk? (And from people who should know better...) After Chiyotaikai lost a 13-2 yusho playoff to Tochiazuma back in January 2002, his yusho-equivalent performance was also judged sufficient to put him on tsunatori the next basho, along with Tochiazuma. Nothin' to do with Asashoryu whatsoever.

Let's face it, somebody is always going to say that yusho + yusho-equivalent will be sufficient, but that has little bearing on what they'll actually do when it happens. They didn't promote Hakuho after 14-1Y -> 13-2J despite lots of talk beforehand that a 13-win jun-yusho may be considered strong enough to fulfill "yusho-equivalency".

Edited May 24, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Kuroyama 715]

His father's name is Stefan, not Stefanov by the way, not all Bulgarian/Russian words end in "ov" or "ski", just 95% (Nodding yes...)

Somebody got confused about what is meant by "patronymic".

Anyway, where there is already at least one yokozuna, the "yusho equivalent" rule is the only fair one. All you're doing is expecting a yokozuna level of performance. With more than one yokozuna one cannot, after all, expect both of them to win a yusho every basho. But all yokozuna are expected to be in the running at least, and that's what the rule amounts to.

[Kintamayama 45,565]

Erm, what's with all the "recent lowering of the promotion standards" talk? (And from people who should know better...)

I pointed out that that was what it was-just talk, and the talk was never put to test. What deteriorated was the talk, and not the actual happenings, because of the pressure to have a new yokozuna, and especially when a Japanese candidate came up, it seemed to some that the bar was being lowered so they could just slither under it..

As for "judged sufficient for a tsunatori", I think we've seen the powers that be weasel out of those a few times as well..

[HenryK 38]

Lately, it's not even been a minimum of two back to back yushos-we've heard talk of a yusho and a yusho equivalent, a yusho and a ketteisen, a yusho and a strong jun-yusho-you name it, we heard it.

I have to admit I hate that deterioration of promotion criteria we experienced last years. Maybe it's not something new, but I realized it recently. Two consequent yusho criteria is straightforward and simple. Anything " .. or equivalent" smells as cheating around in attempt to favour particular rikishi.

Just my 2c

Hmmmmm..... promotion criteria were kind lax in the 1980s, but recenlty? News to me.

[Doitsuyama 1,194]

Lately, it's not even been a minimum of two back to back yushos-we've heard talk of a yusho and a yusho equivalent, a yusho and a ketteisen, a yusho and a strong jun-yusho-you name it, we heard it.

I have to admit I hate that deterioration of promotion criteria we experienced last years. Maybe it's not something new, but I realized it recently. Two consequent yusho criteria is straightforward and simple. Anything " .. or equivalent" smells as cheating around in attempt to favour particular rikishi.

Just my 2c

Hmmmmm..... promotion criteria were kind lax in the 1980s, but recenlty? News to me.

Yes, it will be difficult for salle to back that up with facts. Fact is Hakuho got denied promotion with jun-yusho, yusho playoff loss, yusho, jun-yusho. Like Kintamayama said, what deteriorated was at best the talk about a promotion but that doesn't mean much.

[Asashosakari 19,693]

Erm, what's with all the "recent lowering of the promotion standards" talk? (And from people who should know better...)

I pointed out that that was what it was-just talk, and the talk was never put to test.

Ah, I should have used even more italics, then. (Nodding yes...) I was mainly taking issue with the characterization that it's a recent thing (= only the last couple of years or so). Unless I totally misinterpreted your post (in particular the "Lately..."), that's what you seemed to be saying. I'm willing to bet that even the talk goes back much further - at least 2002, per the above, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if equivalent comments existed in the 1990s and simply never made it to the English-language sumosphere.

Maybe my reading was influenced by salle's subsequent post, though. No problem. :-D

As for "judged sufficient for a tsunatori", I think we've seen the powers that be weasel out of those a few times as well..

Have we? Weaseled out of "judged sufficient for completing a tsunatori, i.e. promotion" (Hakuho's 13-2J, etc.), sure, but I don't think they've ever said that some particularly good result (playoff loss, yusho) wasn't even enough to start a tsunatori. Or am I misreading you again?

Edited May 24, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 45,565]

Ah, I should have used even more italics, then. (Nodding yes...) I was mainly taking issue with the characterization that it's a recent thing (= only the last couple of years or so). Unless I totally misinterpreted your post (in particular the "Lately..."), that's what you seemed to be saying. I'm willing to bet that even the talk goes back much further - at least 2002, per the above, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if equivalent comments existed in the 1990s and simply never made it to the English-language sumosphere.

Be that as it may, the talk may have been there, but I don't remember it being as "loose" as it was before we finally had Hakuhou's promotion, hence the "lately". The forum was quite active with eyebrow raising then, so it must have been a significant lowering of standards in principal.

As for "judged sufficient for a tsunatori", I think we've seen the powers that be weasel out of those a few times as well..

Have we? Weaseled out of "judged sufficient for completing a tsunatori, i.e. promotion" (Hakuho's 13-2J, etc.), sure, but I don't think they've ever said that some particularly good result (playoff loss, yusho) wasn't even enough to start a tsunatori. Or am I misreading you again?

No, I mean the alleged laying down of "criteria", and then when they were met, weaseling out of the promotion under some pretext-Hakuhou's 13-2 is a good example, not to mention Miyabiyama's Ozeki run, though unrelated to the topic at hand..

Edited May 24, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 19,693]

Be that as it may, the talk may have been there, but I don't remember it being as "loose" as it was before we finally had Hakuhou's promotion, hence the "lately". The forum was quite active with eyebrow raising then, so it must have been a significant lowering of standards in principal.

FWIW, I'm seeing plenty of raised eyebrows in the January 2002 SML archives about the Chiyotaikai decision, too. I don't really think the talk has gotten looser; it's just reported more thoroughly than it was back then.

Edit: Okay, with one big exception...one thing that was new (AFAIK) in recent years was the "carrying over" talk with some of Kaio and Tochiazuma's tsunatori runs.

BTW, who was the last (if there ever was one..) Ozeki to come back from kadoban and be promoted to Yokozuna after the next two bashos, yushos or not?

Hasn't happened yet.

Edited May 24, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Bealzbob 0]

Big congrats to Kotooshu, a rikishi I've given plenty of stick to in the past. Hopefully we'll see plenty more of this Kotooshu from now onwards.

[Shomishuu 0]

In any case, even if three-basho records may have carried some more weight for yokozuna promotions in the case, that's clearly not the case post-Futahaguro.

I think the importance of the three-basho consideration is overstated for the simple reason that the two-basho criteria was so pliable anyway. Oddly enough, the best example of a possible three-basho promotion is Onokuni (15-0Y, 12-3J, 13-2J), who was promoted just prior to Futahaguro's last basho. If the YDC had received that resume one basho later, who knows? Still, Onokuni's overall record as ozeki is better than any ozeki who never made yokozuna, so you can't say they got it wrong by promoting him.

[Mark Buckton 1]

I think Nostradamus would be at home in this thread.

The man we all 'know' as a fantastic visionary of what was to come, centuries after his time, was / is only remembered because the cast out literally thousands of predictions covering so many angles of a given theme that he was bound to 'get it right' sometime.

The game of odds is not so different, and we have so few in this thread offering up so many possibilities / once happened / isn't impossible options above that a couple of claims are likely to strike home at some point in the future. All is speculative. That is the name of the game.

Personally I would venture that Maru got his promotion without hitting 36 in his previous 3 basho (as an O) just to balance the banzuke yokozuna wise at that time. Although he did of course get his double yusho which would carry much much more weight. No 'sense' in that banzuke appearance. Mere appearances.

In terms of numbers, the only number that is close to the mark IS the number 36. Look as far back as Kitanoumi. Each time a coincidence? Just because it hasn't been heard of or isn't on paper doesn't make it any more or less a measure for promotion than any other number.

And if Lorna Sharnoff has a take, I would be inclined to take that quite seriously. She has forgotten more about sumo than most will ever know.

Edited May 24, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[Kintamayama 45,565]

Personally I would venture that Maru got his promotion without hitting 36 in his previous 3 basho (as an O) just to balance the banzuke yokozuna wise at that time. Although he did of course get his double yusho which would carry much much more weight. No 'sense' in that banzuke appearance. Mere appearances.

And they needed this balancing out suddenly a year after the third yokozuna was promoted? Highly suspect theory, sir.

In terms of numbers, the only number that is close to the mark IS the number 36. Look as far back as Kitanoumi. Each time a coincidence? Just because it hasn't been heard of or isn't on paper doesn't make it any more or less a measure for promotion than any other number.

And if Lorna Sharnoff has a take, I would be inclined to take that quite seriously. She has forgotten more about sumo than most will ever know.

I actually take Kitanoumi rijicho's take more seriously than Lora Sharnoff's (with all due respect), truth be told. And Kitanoumi (or any power that is) has not mentioned any 3 basho span since I started reading them, which is about 10 years ago. The only mention I ever read was back to back yusho, and those sporadic speculations that maybe a jun-yusho or an equivalent record would suffice, but never, ever did I see the number 36 written as a stipulation for yokozuna promotion. Of course, it is totally feasible that when Laura Sharnoff published her book that was the case, but it sure isn't the case at the present.

Unless of course Kitanoumi and his cohorts secretly go by that 36 win rule without letting me know..

[Peterao 3]

Let's not forget the nebulous "hinkaku" requirement. Methinks that Kotooshu better practice the Japanese anthem and be prepared to sing it today...

[Barbara Murasakihana 0]

First time in 14 basho that the yusho was won by someone other than the two Mongolian Yokozunae.

First yusho after 34 basho-7th quickest, not counting tsukedashi entrants.

First kadoban Ozeki to win a yusho since Hatsu 2006 when Tochiazuma did it, and the 7th ever to do it.

So let's cut the cynicism and give the boy his due.

Agreed! Also add to the list:

First Ozeki to defeat two yokozunas in his kadoban basho, ever. (Since the modern ozeki kadoban system began.)

[yamaneko 2]

Still irks me how he should have set the record 2 yeras ago for fastest yusho, but then choked against kisenosato when he had the yusho almost locked up.

Better late than never. If hakuho and shoryu get healthy next basho i dont like his chances. However, who knows, maybe his record isnt a fluke. I have noticed a distinct change in how low he got this basho during bouts, which takes away a lot of the belt losses he has had lately due to staying too high and being off balance.

[Asashosakari 19,693]

Also add to the list:

First Ozeki to defeat two yokozunas in his kadoban basho, ever. (Since the modern ozeki kadoban system began.)

That's not true, I'm afraid.

Daikirin went 2-1 against yokozuna in Kyushu 1973

Asashio went 3-0 against yokozuna in Hatsu 1984

Chiyotaikai went 2-1 against yokozuna in Nagoya 1999

Late edit: And maybe Murray Johnson would like to actually check the data next time before he pops off a dismissive "correction" to the SML...of course all those guys were kadoban, or I wouldn't have posted it. Sheesh.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Peterao 3]

Trivia;

First kadoban Ozeki to win a yusho since Hatsu 2006 when Tochiazuma did it, and the 7th ever to do it.

Seems like the only person who can beat Hakuho and Asashoryu is a kadoban ozeki. So I'm putting my money on Chiyotaikai next basho!

[Asashosakari 19,693]

To put this thread back on track: Osh's yusho is only the 5th time an ozeki won a 14-1 yusho and was at least 3 wins ahead of the next rikishi. The previous four?

1972.11 Kotozakura

1973.01 Kotozakura

2002.11 Asashoryu

2003.01 Asashoryu

Hmm. ;-)

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

I have never been a big Kotooshu-fan but his smiling face, genuine joy and all enthusiastic Bulgarian comments during yusho interview, the whole appearance of his really makes it a really nice makuuchi yusho win. A lot of ultimate post-orgasm serenity, mental truce with the world, bubbly joy and yatto hotto feelings and eruption of teeth shining and everything that is related to stable mental state with nirvanaish peace. Kotooshu is a big man, big cheese appetite, big father, big heart. He even said his hurt his kokoro during the hardship which was nice thing to say and highlights the hotto yatto motto GOOD state. His sumo was strong but it was also "lucky" but lucky means he was able to do his own sumo basically every day almost and that is skill, flow and concentration. Things won't be like that in Nagoya but now he has serenity, cheese and obstacle removed. Be well Kotooshu. Be well. Looking forward to Nagoya basho. Sumo wrestling is a very good thing and he probably agrees now fully too. Hristo Stoitskov!

Edited May 25, 2008 by Kaikitsune Makoto

[maxim 0]

Kaikitsune Makoto, I'd say Hristo Stoichkov is the exact opposite of Kotooshu - an arrogant, vulgar, aggressive thug.

Personally I don't know Kotooshu, I know a friend of his, but I can't say for sure what his character is. But he seems like a modest, disciplined and decent guy, which makes him one of the very few Bulgarian athletes I can be truly proud of. It's good to see a famous Bulgarian showing such a civil demeanor to the world, not showing anger, spitting on the field or telling the referee what he thinks of his mother. Just a man who shows you don't have to act extraordinary to be extraordinary.

Even if he never becomes Yokozuna (something I don't doubt he can do) I'll still be glad Bulgaria has disciplined, humble and respectable athletes.