Breaking News - Police to Charge Tokitsukaze oyakata

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Asahi Newspaper Editorial.

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/...0802090067.html

[Fukurou 534]

And another article from Asahi's English online edition. According to this, the deceased was being punched and kicked at the infamous "beer bottle dinner" because he couldn't sit properly (on his heels):

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/...0802090074.html

The article includes quotes attributed to Junichi Yamamoto (the former Tokitsukaze-oyakata) and Masanori Fujii (Tokiomaru), one of the 3 arrested rikishi.

It also mentions the Friday visit by NSK directors Isenoumi and Kokonoe to Kenshiro Matsunami, the senior Vice Minister of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology. The stablemasters apologized again about the entire affair. The Vice Minister said outsiders should join the NSK as directors, and wants the NSK to punish the 3 arrested rikishi.

No mention of Chairman Kitanoumi.

[Kintamayama 47,291]

Ex-Tokitsukaze Oyakata hiding behind a towel as the snow falls:

[Harry 67]

And another article from Asahi's English online edition. According to this, the deceased was being punched and kicked at the infamous "beer bottle dinner" because he couldn't sit properly (on his heels):

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/...0802090074.html

Just because he wouldn't sit properly in seiza (正座) position? Ouch. It is painful after a while but I imagine it is less painful than the treatment he received, and must have known he would receive. I can imagine a foreign shin-deshi having problems sitting seiza but not a Japanese recruit. Overall though, it just sounds like he was rebellious and I doubt this particular incident was the real reason for what happened. Another reference to the drinking as well.

[Kintamayama 47,291]

It also mentions the Friday visit by NSK directors Isenoumi and Kokonoe to Kenshiro Matsunami, the senior Vice Minister of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology. The stablemasters apologized again about the entire affair. The Vice Minister said outsiders should join the NSK as directors, and wants the NSK to punish the 3 arrested rikishi.

Picture from the apology:

[Mark Buckton 1]

Chiyonofuji - good man in that he is taking his PR job seriously - at his desk, doing what needs to be done last week. Rough first public appearance I guess.

In the PR office many many times in the past but had never once seen the man who went before. Who was that.....?

Edited February 11, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[ryafuji 825]

The Vice Minister said outsiders should join the NSK as directors

Now that's quite a radical idea. I can't see the NSK being too keen on that. Could they be forced to?

[Kintamayama 47,291]

More articles in English:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20080209TDY03104.htm

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/02/08/japan.sumo/

http://deadspin.com/354632/this-doesnt-happen-at-benihana

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20080211TDY02306.htm

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-02/...ent_7580840.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/0...n.justinmccurry

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7235156.stm

And this with Doreen Simmons commentating:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/db998968-d6b1-11...?nclick_check=1

Edited February 12, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

An Asahi Shimbun piece on how common beating are in ozumo...

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/...0802130056.html

[Stephanoshima 0]

The Japan Sumo Association

Heavy hitters

Feb 14th 2008 | TOKYO

From The Economist print edition

Scandal rocks the national sport

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displa...ory_id=10696234

[HenryK 38]

The Japan Sumo Association

Heavy hitters

Feb 14th 2008 | TOKYO

From The Economist print edition

Scandal rocks the national sport

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displa...ory_id=10696234

Good article.

[HenryK 38]

The Vice Minister said outsiders should join the NSK as directors

Now that's quite a radical idea. I can't see the NSK being too keen on that. Could they be forced to?

In principle they are subordinated to the Education Ministry, hence they could. And they should.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Apart form the fact that they seem to have "information" that I haven't seen anywhere else "his right ear was torn off"

I recall reading somewhere the claim that it was partially torn off.

hoary old cliches

"even today wrestlers are treated as deities"

Yokozuna are considered living gods, at least by some. Didn't Akebono mention it in Sumo: East & West? Yes, I'm nitpicking. (Shaking head...)

and downright lies

"Some recruits are virtual prisoners"

I really doubt it's the norm, or even common, but it is conceivable that a very few somewhere are.

[Harry 67]

Many rikishi have cauliflower ear. Heck, even Hakuho has it on one side! So in reality it is not surprising to hear of it in a shin-deshi. It just happens in fighting sports.

Sumo was and is religious. There is much of Shinto in the ceremony, the dohyo and why women are not supposed to stand upon it. Originally, portents were taken from the results of the matches (if a farmer beat a fisherman, the crops were supposed to be good that year). Yokozuna and their rope which resembles the shinto rope used to cordon off sacred areas implies that the yokozuna is sacred; they perform their first dohyo-iri at a jingu (jinga, shinto shrine). In fact, however, kamisama (gods) are everywhere in Shinto so it is probably easier to list what isn't a diety... Charismatic people are often considered kamisama and many rikishi are quite charismatic. In Shinto the gods do not live in heaven or Valhalla; they live and walk among us.

[HenryK 38]

Why should they?

You know my answer. Because the NSK has shown too often that in its current form it is not up to running ozumo, at least in important parts. And because -- as the Economist article explains very nicely -- the needed reform won't come from the established insiders. Their incentives are stacked against it.

I also disagree with your characterization of the Economists' claims, as you will expect.

[HenryK 38]

and downright lies

"Some recruits are virtual prisoners"

I really doubt it's the norm, or even common, but it is conceivable that a very few somewhere are.

Certainly this was the case for the riskishi who lost his live. "Prison" is arguably an understatement is this case.

I really wonder what it will take for some folks to understand that something utterly wrong and unacceptable happened there that should not have been possible, and that can't be handled with a return to business as usual.

Edited February 23, 2008 by HenryK

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

If there's one thing I've learned from the Internet, it is that Some People Just Don't Get It

[Sasanishiki 57]

Many rikishi have cauliflower ear. Heck, even Hakuho has it on one side! So in reality it is not surprising to hear of it in a shin-deshi. It just happens in fighting sports.

A cauliflower ear is caused by fluid collecting on the exterior of the ear, usually caused by a blow (or repeated blows). The cartilage is separated from the perichondrium, causing the cartilage to die. Fibruous tissue collects and causes the permanent swelling and disfigurement that we know as a caulifower ear. This is not uncommon in sumo because of the regularity of contact to the head and ears in tachiai, regular butsukari training and through techniques such as harite.

This to me seems nothing like an ear being (partially) ripped off, which would likely have occurred in this case through violence. If it did occur then I presume it is to have occurred through the beatings the deshi suffered.

Sumo was and is religious. There is much of Shinto in the ceremony, the dohyo and why women are not supposed to stand upon it. Originally, portents were taken from the results of the matches (if a farmer beat a fisherman, the crops were supposed to be good that year). Yokozuna and their rope which resembles the shinto rope used to cordon off sacred areas implies that the yokozuna is sacred; they perform their first dohyo-iri at a jingu (jinga, shinto shrine). In fact, however, kamisama (gods) are everywhere in Shinto so it is probably easier to list what isn't a diety... Charismatic people are often considered kamisama and many rikishi are quite charismatic. In Shinto the gods do not live in heaven or Valhalla; they live and walk among us.

Having elements of Shinto performed as ceremony within sumo is not akin to belief in those elements for their religious nature (either by the rikishi or the audience). The yokozuna wears a tsuna that resembles the shimenawa hung at Shinto shrines and around sacred trees. It is to signify where kami (Shinto deities) reside. However, I don;t really think that anyone considers Asa or Hakuho (or their predecessors) to be "gods" or divine. Rather, the yokozuna stand as a proxy for the gods, ie. representing them rather than being them. Another similarity in this representation is when the gyoji act as Shinto priests when consecrating the dohyo before a basho. They play the role of the Shinto priest rather than being a priest themselves outside of this context.

[Harry 67]

I'm not a doctor or a rikishi so I'll take your word for it that the mostly torn off ear was not the usual damage from keiko.

Sumo in the past definitely had a religious pretext. While it is certainly more modern today, if it retains no religious significance why do they not allow women on the dohyo? Just tradition? Are any modern women really considered 'dirty' as they are in old Shinto? If not, then why all the fuss? Why do Yokozuna perform their first dohyo-iri at a shrine? If it ain't broke don't fix it? Why bother with the salt and chikaramizu? Merely theatrics? If they don't care about it then perhaps they should just use a modern wrestling surface, wear CoolMax fabric mawashis and drink Gatorade.

[HenryK 38]

I'm not a doctor or a rikishi so I'll take your word for it that the mostly torn off ear was not the usual damage from keiko.

Sumo in the past definitely had a religious pretext. While it is certainly more modern today, if it retains no religious significance ... Just tradition?

Well, why do they play all-white at Wimbledon (but nowhere else any longer)? Why is the English Cup final always played at Wembley? Why does the winner of the golf Masters get helped into a green jacket by his predecessor?

Just tradition. To me this seems an excellent reason for maintaining most beloved elements of ozumo, whether they have a religious pretext or not -- certainly dohyo-iri, salt and chikaramizu, the surface. Actually these are really uncontroversial.

"Tradition" just mustn't be allowed to serve an excuse for failure.

Edited February 24, 2008 by HenryK

[Sasanishiki 57]

Sumo in the past definitely had a religious pretext. While it is certainly more modern today, if it retains no religious significance why do they not allow women on the dohyo? Just tradition? Are any modern women really considered 'dirty' as they are in old Shinto? If not, then why all the fuss? Why do Yokozuna perform their first dohyo-iri at a shrine? If it ain't broke don't fix it? Why bother with the salt and chikaramizu? Merely theatrics? If they don't care about it then perhaps they should just use a modern wrestling surface, wear CoolMax fabric mawashis and drink Gatorade.

You miss my point, I am not saying that there is no religious element. The point is about the belief in the religious elements that are there - that is up to the individual. What I was saying is that I don't think anyone believes the yokozuna to be kami, just that they play a symbolic role invoking the presence of kami (if you believe in that). I personally believe that much of it is tradition within sumo, as HenryK mentions, that keeps much of this Shinto ritual within ozumo. As you say, if it ain't broke don't fix it. The nature of the clay dohyo and the canvas mawashi is a key element in the sport. Now, the salt and chikaramizu probably is theatrics. We have little way of knowing if the rikishi really believe that they gain strength from teh chikaramizu, but I'm sure they'd all appreciate that it is a necessary and important ritual to symbolically purify themselves and to continue the traditions that have been done before them for generations. You need not look far for other institutions right around the world that perform traditions not for benefit in the present but to honour the past.

[HenryK 38]

Why is the English Cup final always played at Wembley?

ahem.

Except 2001-06, (when the final moved temporarily to Cardiff as old Wembley was broken down and new Wembley constructed), smarty. :-)

[kaiguma 0]

Regarding the "Yokozuna as living god" myth, the main problem is actually in the translation of 'kami.' It does not translate to 'god' but much closer to 'spirit' as in the sense we use when describing Native American spiritualism. Shinto is derived from ancient forms of 'Animism' which is itself somewhat of a misnomer and carries a fuzzy definition. Nevertheless, the distinction explains why folks can literally consider a Yokozuna as 'kami' without being themselves considered batshit crazy, even in a modern age.

When Chiyonofuji was in his 'zone' I can guarantee you would not feel you were on the dohyo with a human being...

Edited February 24, 2008 by kaiguma

[sekihiryu 51]

If there's one thing I've learned from the Internet, it is that Some People Just Don't Get It™.

have you been over in the creatine thread? we've got a case of that over there. (Sigh...)

[Susanoumi 0]

Hello everybody,

I was also shocked when I heard the message about the death of these young rikishi of Tokitzukaze-beya and I still wish that the reasons are not true.

Well, know I must accept the reality. This boy was a victim of violence and Tokitzukaze oyakata should be sent to prison if the justice is able to proof the truth of all facts.

Finally I would suggest to make regular visitations of all heya from independent persons which are engaged by the NSK because one victim of violence is one too much.

I hope justice will win and the responsible oyakata and rikishi will be punished.

Now I wish eyery member of the forum a nice evening!

Susanoumi