Is Asashoryu a dirty cheat deserving of poetic justice?

[nirumaruyama 0]

I've just finished reading Mark Buckton's round-up of the Osaka basho in the Japan Times. http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ss20070327a1.html

He makes two statements regarding Asashoryu which intrigued me:

...and true colors shining through (Asashoryu's knee to the back of an already defeated and floored opponent, Kisenosato, on Day 8) ....

...So, to then see the yokozuna himself go down to a Hakuho henka but minutes later during the yusho decider was poetic justice -- a deserved slap-down if ever there was one in the eyes of many....

The reason these two statements intrigued me is that first implies that the yokozuna is a dirty wrestler and the second that he is a cheat (a leagal one at that) and deserves to be treated to a henka as punishment. I have always seen Asashoryu as a multi-faceted wrestler - an Anakin Skywalker sort but I think he brings a lot to sumo and the overall competition.

What does everyone else think?

I'm not an Asa hater at all (the opposite in fact) and I don't agree with the sentiments expressed in the article regarding Asashoryu.

Edited March 27, 2007 by nirumaruyama

[Coo-cook 0]

Asa is a very generous guy who even gives his haters a chance to release their frustration and anger (and try to find peace) from time to time....and I expect few more generosities in the future (Neener, neener...)

[Gusoyama 104]

Typical overreaction by the media.

[Jakusotsu 6,050]

Typical overreaction by the media.

(Neener, neener...) I wonder if the media is still around occasionally to read this.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

One doesn't have to like the personality of an athlete or actor or whatever to be a fan. Yet the vibs coming from Shoryu's behaviour make me nauseous and I don't like him one bit. His sumo I respect to highest degree but his personality I despise. My image of him may be wrong but that is the reason I dislike him so much. In my opinion he has no respect for people. It shows in his demeanor and comments. "The true value of a man is not estimated by how he treats his equals but how he treats his inferiors". In that way he appears to have not much value. Now you can claim that "oh he donates lot of stuff to Mongolia!" and "he gives 10000 yen to all toriteki during foreign trips!" etc. but my prejudiced view is that of course he does that. That way he gets more admiration and gets the feeling of importance and can be on top of a podium. He reminds me of many people I have known who have all been assholes as a teen and who are assholes as an adult. Nishinoshima may have been an asshole in his youth but not the kind of asshole that remain assholes usually and now he is undoubtely jovial chap with dignity, care for people, kindness and genuine benevolence and all that. Asashoryu on the other hand looks like the eternal bully who would enjoy beating people up and destroying them. Luckily he lives a life where he can only do that to sumotori of which most can take it easily. I wonder why Shoryu is said to be so hated by lower rankers? Do you honestly believe Shoryu treats them with violence to "make them stronger"? I think Shoryu is bully and one mean fellow by nature and only thing that prevents him from showing that side now is his success which keeps him happy. Would like to hear about his marriage. How is Shoryu when things go wrong at home and he is frustrated? Why are there so many stories about him being a really mean bully in Mongolia? He has a personality of a superstar with the arrogance and me me me-aspect. Totally selfish acts over and over again. "When I want to do something I will do it no matter what others think"-mentality. Mike Tyson and Shoryu were both scary youngsters with vicious attitude at keiko and violence. Both got to the top. Tyson is the idiot of the idiots and Shoryu's future is certainly brighter but similarities can be seen for sure.

Never wish for anyone's injury but if/when Shoryu gets injured badly enough to make his life less stellar for a while, it will sure be interesting to see how he reacts.

My opinion of Shoryu is probably flawed but surely Shoryu worshippers' opinions are flawed too. If Barbara is right about Shoryu's character, summer soup time again for me. There is something vile in Shoryu's entity, more than in any other sekitori.

Oh and my all time favourite tiny incident from keiko that was reported. When getting beaten by Sekiryu twice at keiko he slammed him to the wall violently in the next bout after Sekiryu was out. And this was a training foe he has been training for years and years and whom he has known for ages. Small incident and not a big deal but very very very telling. "Question my authority and I will destroy you!".Equally telling as when seeing someone yank the dog leech so that the dog is in pain when dog didn't do anything except stop for a second too long. That is 5 second psychology and usually accurate. Be well.

[Hakuyobaku 33]

Kaikitsune Makoto

I know it adds little to conversation, but I agree with you 100 per cent.

Dark side of the force, indeed.

[Kintamayama 45,530]

Well, I've heard he doesn't like you that much either, Mr. Kaikitsune-san sir..

Edited March 27, 2007 by Kintamayama

[nirumaruyama 0]

Thanks for your detailed answer Kaikitsune. You give a very clear answer as to why you don't like Asashoryu, which I think is something missing from the article by Mark Buckton (although the article is a round-up of the Osaka basho and not about Asa). Mark hints at deep dark secrets in the underbelly of Asa and probably it is these hints that I dislike so much. The media build-up and break-down "celebrities" so much that it is hard to tell fact from fiction. Since Asa is the Yokozuna it is much easier to use him as the traget for mudslinging. At the moment everyone hates Chelsea in football - mainly because they are winners, a few years ago there was the ABU (Anyone But Manchester United) brigade who were sick of Man U winning things. Everyone likes to take a pop at the champions.

I have heard from Mongolians that Asa is not popular in Mongolia, whereas Hakuho is. Maybe Asa sold his granny for an old mawashi, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't speculate on his private life as I don't know a thing about it. And I'm not sure it would be all that relevant. There are many cases in the past where a person has been well regarded in the sport they play as a gent and decent person only later to discover the guy was a raving, drug-taking, wife beater. I only know Asa from his sumo. Not everything he does is pleasant, not everything he does is a shining example. Perhaps he is in it just for himself (hardly a shock). Maybe he is a brute and a bully. In sumo I don't think that would be a first and perhaps he won't be the last. What of the rikishi (I've forgotten his name) some basho ago that after losing his bout went and beat the kid up that beat him? Apparently he was a decent individual of standing amongst his peers.

Should Asashoryu be vilified for distasteful sumo behvaiour and attitude - Yes. Do we say that what's good for the goose is good for the gander? One henka deserves another in return? That is something I'm not too sure about. Should Asa have the wing mirror of his car broken off, should he be slammed against the wall, should he be switched with a bamboo stick during practice? You might say yes, but surely that merely justifies Asashoryu's own behaviour to start with.

If there are accusations of cheating, bullying etc. let them be made clearly and let Asashoryu reply to them. However, where is the 'poetic justice' in doing to him what he does to others?

Edited March 27, 2007 by nirumaruyama

[Coo-cook 0]

One doesn't have to like the personality of an athlete or actor or whatever to be a fan. Yet the vibs coming from Shoryu's behaviour make me nauseous and I don't like him one bit. His sumo I respect to highest degree but his personality I despise. My image of him may be wrong but that is the reason I dislike him so much. In my opinion he has no respect for people. It shows in his demeanor and comments.

Your dislike toward Asa seems to be not that bad compared to one of your countryman's, who's hatred seems more "profound" and even "historical". It's painful to read his suffering, sometimes.

Edited March 27, 2007 by Coo-cook

[Asashosakari 19,668]

Should Asashoryu be vilified for distasteful sumo behvaiour and attitude - Yes. Do we say that what's good for the goose is good for the gander? One henka deserves another in return? That is something I'm not too sure about. Should Asa have the wing mirror of his car broken off, should he be slammed against the wall, should he be switched with a bamboo stick during practice? You might say yes, but surely that merely justifies Asashoryu's own behaviour to start with.

That's like saying the existence of vigilant justice justifies murdering random people. Both parts of such a chain of events may be seen as morally reprehensible, but the one who sets it in motion is generally regarded as the worse offender. (Not in the court of law, that is, but in people's gut feeling about it.)

Edited March 27, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Gusoyama 104]

Typical overreaction by the media.

(Neener, neener...) I wonder if the media is still around occasionally to read this.

Oh, I know who MB is. Typical media.

[Coo-cook 0]

I have heard from Mongolians that Asa is not popular in Mongolia, whereas Hakuho is.

I don't know about that.Asa is still more popular than Hakuho I think.

Most people around me were commenting on Hakuho's cheap moves and not respecting fans and viewers on deciding bout....etc.

Far less critical on Asa's henka and many consider it something personell between him and Chyotaikai.

Hakuho's marriage is seen as a betrayel and break of a well known wrestling blood line by many conservative minded Mongolians.

Sounds all funny...but, that's what you read in Mongolian forums and blogs.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

...the vibs coming from Shoryu's behaviour make me nauseous and I don't like him one bit. His sumo I respect to highest degree but his personality I despise. My image of him may be wrong but that is the reason I dislike him so much. In my opinion he has no respect for people. It shows in his demeanor and comments. "The true value of a man is not estimated by how he treats his equals but how he treats his inferiors". In that way he appears to have not much value....

Never wish for anyone's injury but if/when Shoryu gets injured badly enough to make his life less stellar for a while, it will sure be interesting to see how he reacts.

Sumo begins and ends with rei. This emphasis in sumo/budo is there for a reason. Without that, all the rest is meaningless.

What of the rikishi (I've forgotten his name) some basho ago that after losing his bout went and beat the kid up that beat him? Apparently he was a decent individual of standing amongst his peers.

The former Kotokanyu perhaps?

[Hananotaka 8]

FWIW, Mark Buckton is not calling Asashoryu a cheat (or even a "legal cheat", whatever that means). He's pointing out that henka is a cheap way to win, and that Yokozuna SHOULD NOT EVER do it. And that in so much as Asashoryu, in the prime of his strength and skill, had done it against Chiyotaikai, it was fitting that he should have it done to him.

One may agree or disagree with whether it was fitting. I myself laughed when it happened. But as Kotoseiya pointed out, that was a crappy way to send Kimura Shonosuke into retirement.

I do not know Dolgorsuren Dagvadorj. He may be a wonderful person, kind husband and father, and loyal friend. He may be a complete jerk-off. I make no judgment either way, but if anything give him the benefit of the doubt.

I do know that I'm not a fan of Asashouryuu Akinori, if you can see the distinction. His manner and behavior on the dohyo leave a lot to be desired, and I'm fairly lenient on that account, as any who have known me through the years can attest. And lately his sumo leaves a lot to be desired, too. He's showing his usual fantastic strength, amazing speed, and psychological edge. He's kinda left the sumo skill part in the akeni the past couple basho, and in this last basho it was particularly bad. That he henka'd was not surprising.

It was, however, wrong, wrong, wrong. Again, I'm not anti-henka. If a guy falls for a henka it's his own fault, and I think more blame should be given to the "victims" in these cases. Henka is bad sumo, and if you don't make the guy pay for choosing it, well, maybe you deserve to lose. And small rikishi, injured rikishi, old rikishi, I don't blame them at all for doing it. Yeah, maybe it's not what I want to see, but I understand how difficult and punishing sumo can be, and how they might have to henka just to give themselves a fighting chance, even if it's only to set up the possibility of henka in their opponent's mind.

But sumo is not just sport; it has an aesthetic. That is why the gyoji wear Heian period kimono, why the shimpan wear haori-hakama. It is why the rikishi wear oichou-mage, and perform dohyo-iri. It is why yobidashi announce the rikishi, not just the PA system. It is why we have five minutes of shikiri. Professional sumo has always been about entertaining the folks with impressive displays of strength, not winning at any cost. And the Yokozuna is the paragon of that aesthetic. He is all-mighty, the strongest of the strong. All the reasons a young, promising rikishi gunning for Ozeki or Yokozuna shouldn't henka go double for a Yokozuna. Why is it that a Yokozuna must retire when he starts to lose? Because he is obviously not up to representing the best of that sumo aesthetic. He is no longer the strongest, the best at entertaining the crowd with prodigious feats of strength.

Some may find that ridiculous. They may feel that Asashouryuu is an athlete like any other, and putting such non-competitive pressures on him are a mistake. Perhaps professional sumo is not those people's cup of tea. They would be happier watching amateur sumo, which is a pure sport.

What bugs me, personally, is that I wanted to like Asashouryuu. My posts on the SML back when he was coming reflect that, too. The mirror incident, the Takasago Oyakata funeral incident, all that stuff, I said, "He's young. He needs to mature, yes, but I'm sure that he will." Heck, all the yokozuna have had incidents at one time or another. Well, it's been quite some time. He's no longer young. And frankly, it's just getting worse. The jettisoning people off the dohyo after they've meekly stepped out of the ring, the literally kicking people when they're down, the complete lack of bowing after a loss, and now regular henka's. No hinkaku. No yoyuu. Just speed, strength, and attitude. Dolgorsuren Dagvadorj is a tremendous athlete. Asashouryuu Akinori is a terribly flawed Yokozuna.

Edited March 28, 2007 by Hananotaka

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Your dislike toward Asa seems to be not that bad compared to one of your countryman's, who's hatred seems more "profound" and even "historical". It's painful to read his suffering, sometimes.

Who might that be?

I've thought about this a long time, far before I had ever heard about this particular guy. It lies somewhere very deep in my personality. It might have to do something about me being the odd kid out. The one a bit different from the others. Too self-sufficient to give rat's ass about those who thought they were the kings of the hill. So I was bullied, day after day, year after year by the Asashoryus of the school. No matter what they did, I knew I was above them and what was best, they knew it too. I'm a complete failure as an adult (in every conceivable sense) but that doesn't bother me as I know they are too and most likely even worse than me. Drunkards, junkies, prisoners... (as far as I've heard). They never won anything from me but they did instill in me a hatred towards their kind.

Some people are like that. Born bastard, living as bastards, to die as bastards. Everything in Asashoryu reeks that. Irrevocable bastard for reasons listed by other posters above. Utter failure as a yokozuna. Somewhat reminiscent to Senna & Schumacher although even worse.

Me, me, me! Me takes the covers with me left. Me goes and bullies anyone who dares to think he could win me. Me thinks the rules are different for me. Me breaks others' property an hour after the bout. Me needs no self-control. That is for wusses. Me does not bow to wusses. Wusses bow to me! Me fears Kisenosato, hence I kick the wuss! Me, me, me, MEEEE!

Dolgorsuren Dagvadorj doesn't like me? Big (Censored...) deal! I'd hate myself if he did.

[Fay 1,677]

Quite disgusting to read these self-satisfied and vitriolic remarks. (Censored...)

What has Asashoryu done to face such concentrated hate?

I don't know him at all and I could only judge about his sumo. I would beware of forming an opinion about his personality by having read articles about him in the press often written by people who don't like him either.

You can like Asashoryu or dislike him, it's up to you, but these comments are going much too far for me and don't show at all the respect for other people you demand from Asashoryu.

Time to go I guess

[Doitsuyama 1,192]

What has Asashoryu done to face such concentrated hate?

- Break other people's car mirrors one hour after the bout

- Not bowing after a loss

- Bullying other rikishi in keiko

- Kneeing other rikishi after the bout is over

I don't hate him, but it's no wonder other people do. Asashoryu is doing enough for that.

[21Grams 0]

Do i miss Peterio here? (Censored...)

[paolo 0]

I am italian, and all that I "knew" about sumo until 5 years ago was that it was a fight between two ridiculously fat men. Then I had the opportunity to watch some sumo bouts on Eurosport TV, and I started to understand something, to acknowledge the rikishis, and so on. And I said to myself: here is a guy that I like ... smaller and lighter than most of the others (for instance Musashimaru was still there), but what determination, what will, what perseverance ! he is not heavy enough ? well, he tries to use speed to move around, strength to push, different techniques to overcome the heavier opponents !. You can imagine my surprise when I discovered that he had become a yokozuna ! But he is a Mongolian, so a relationship with japanese traditions may not be deeply felt. He is a fighter, and his wins come from his concentration on the fight and not on other aspects. Anyway: he was asked not to use his strong tsuppari in order not to hurt others, and he did not use it any more. He was asked not to use tsuriotoshi any more, and he did not use it any more. As soon as the opportunity arouse, he was disqualified because his hand had entered Kyokushuzan's mage in an already won bout and "it did not matter if it happened by accident". Then somebody found that being left handed he would take the envelopes with his left hand: and this was a shame for the whole sumo world... and now he takes them with his right !! He uses a lot of different techniques

beyond the most common ones ? "a true yokozuna wins by yorikiri and oshidashi only". He uses a ketaguri (never heard about...) ? "a true yokozuna does not use his feet to win" ! He makes gifts to other people, he offers a contribution to mongolian judo team, he gives envelopes to a retiring gyoji ? He does so just in order to make other people think that he is a good boy.... He wins 20 basho's ? He must have bought most of the bouts !

Sincerely, isn't all this stuff a bit too much ?

[Kintamayama 45,530]

I am italian, and all that I "knew" about sumo until 5 years ago was that it was a fight between two ridiculously fat men. Then I had the opportunity to watch some sumo bouts on Eurosport TV, and I started to understand something, to acknowledge the rikishis, and so on. And I said to myself: here is a guy that I like ... smaller and lighter than most of the others (for instance Musashimaru was still there), but what determination, what will, what perseverance ! he is not heavy enough ? well, he tries to use speed to move around, strength to push, different techniques to overcome the heavier opponents !. You can imagine my surprise when I discovered that he had become a yokozuna ! But he is a Mongolian, so a relationship with japanese traditions may not be deeply felt. He is a fighter, and his wins come from his concentration on the fight and not on other aspects. Anyway: he was asked not to use his strong tsuppari in order not to hurt others, and he did not use it any more. He was asked not to use tsuriotoshi any more, and he did not use it any more. As soon as the opportunity arouse, he was disqualified because his hand had entered Kyokushuzan's mage in an already won bout and "it did not matter if it happened by accident". Then somebody found that being left handed he would take the envelopes with his left hand: and this was a shame for the whole sumo world... and now he takes them with his right !! He uses a lot of different techniques

beyond the most common ones ? "a true yokozuna wins by yorikiri and oshidashi only". He uses a ketaguri (never heard about...) ? "a true yokozuna does not use his feet to win" ! He makes gifts to other people, he offers a contribution to mongolian judo team, he gives envelopes to a retiring gyoji ? He does so just in order to make other people think that he is a good boy.... He wins 20 basho's ? He must have bought most of the bouts !

Sincerely, isn't all this stuff a bit too much ?

Should be pinned, but it will probably be Finned..

Edited March 28, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Bealzbob 0]

Superb post paolo. Some people do have short memories indeed. Perhaps people are being swept up in the media frenzy without realising it.

For what it's worth, I think any 'retribution' on Asa should be dished out by Chiyotaikai and no-one else. If Hakuho wants to become a yokozuna then he shouldn't be resorting to those tactics, and it wasn't his place to retaliate. Asashoryu is already a yokozuna because he has time and time again beaten everyone with many kimarite. He has nothing to prove to anyone. Hakuho still has a lot to prove. So yes be hard on Asa if you all want (I choose not), but you should be much much harder on Hakuho. Yet it seems he is the hero in all of this. Grace and how you 'carry' yourself used to be taken into account when being promoted to yokozuna as well as win-rate. Wouldn't it be hilarious and justly deserved if Hak was denied the promotion because of his henka :)

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

There is no need to get Paolo's post pinned of Finned. He obviously likes Shoryu, I don't. Difference of view point. His post doesn't have any of the negative stuff and just has an underlining "give him a break". One can easily refute some of his comments too as that left hand - right hand thing was not corrected for a looooong time. Why? "I just can't rememeber it, comes so automatically with the left hand" or "I do what I do, nobody tells me what to do" attitude which took a long time to get rid of in this. He still goes for tsuppari and aggressive sumo. He did beat Azuma's face well in that famous bout and obviously got some scolding for that as that indeed seemed a bit over the top. Tsuriotoshi is still in his repertoire and went for it against Kotoshogiku this basho. Nothing wrong with tsuppari of course.

It may be pointless to argue what is good and what is bad in Shoryu as everything is subjective. Just stated my opinion based on my own observations and impression on him. It is sad in a way too as like Hananotaka, I also wanted to be able to root for Shoryu. Such great sumo he exhibits.

Lack of hinkaku, lack of respect etc. are all bad stuff but one thing that would shed much more light would be the general opinion on him amongst other rikishi. Shoryu is already so successful that jealously factor is small. So far the inside reports have suggested he sure isn't liked by other rikishi, especially the lower rankers. Sure, it is possible that reports from this came from individuals who dislike Shoryu and hence report only negative stuff but a study on this would be interesting. Relevant? Maybe not but interesting for sure.

He deserves benefit of the doubt yes. He doesn't deserve to be beyond harsh critique and speculation over his nature. The pattern that comes from his behaviour draws a gloomy image. Some agree, some don't. Grandmothers of many have said "if you don't have anything good to say about someone, you should remain silent". Good advice which was violated but then again his sumo IS superb and his tenacity in getting to the pinnacle of makuuchi is impressive.

[Kintamayama 45,530]

One can easily refute some of his comments too as that left hand - right hand thing was not corrected for a looooong time. Why? "I just can't rememeber it, comes so automatically with the left hand" or "I do what I do, nobody tells me what to do" attitude which took a long time to get rid of in this.

And I will tirelessly remind you that there never was an absolutely "right way" to do it. A large majority did it with their right, but the whole tegatana thing was made up by someone (Nayoroiwa?) and got picked up by others. I'm too lazy too search, but you remember what I mean.. It's just Ms. Uchidate and other xenophobes (well, those who look at foreigners with magnifying glasses) and their thing.

As for the rest, I can't argue with any of it, regretfully..

Edited March 28, 2007 by Kintamayama

[paolo 0]

There is no need to get Paolo's post pinned of Finned. He obviously likes Shoryu, I don't. Difference of view point. His post doesn't have any of the negative stuff and just has an underlining "give him a break". One can easily refute some of his comments too as that left hand - right hand thing was not corrected for a looooong time. Why? "I just can't rememeber it, comes so automatically with the left hand" or "I do what I do, nobody tells me what to do" attitude which took a long time to get rid of in this. He still goes for tsuppari and aggressive sumo. He did beat Azuma's face well in that famous bout and obviously got some scolding for that as that indeed seemed a bit over the top. Tsuriotoshi is still in his repertoire and went for it against Kotoshogiku this basho. Nothing wrong with tsuppari of course.

Just to add a word (or perhaps some...). Do I like Asashoryu ? Yes. Do I think that everything he does is right ? No. I simply find unfair that every single thing, attitude, move, word that he makes or says has to be criticized up to the smallest molecule. I do not like the attitude that sometimes he shows when he loses (not bowing, not accepting Kokkai's arm, smiling ironically at the gyoji ...); but I like his proud idea that "this time you beat me, next time NO WAY". I did not like his henka versus an honest man like Chiyotaikai, but how many henka's did Asashoryu perform in his career ? Let's hope that it was the last one ! I did not like the kick to Kisenosato either, but it was such a little one that I had almost missed it, while his critics made it look like a big kick when it above all was a sign of triumph. And yes, when he meets Kakizoe he tries to manhandle him as much as he can... But as far as the left hand thing is concerned, it certainly took him some time to correct, but I can hardly imagine how long it would take me (I am right handed) to switch hand to take something with my left if it was necessary, exspecially after a fight. And once more, had there never been any other left handed rikishi in sumo story ? Had he been asked to take the envelopes with his right ? ....

[Hananotaka 8]

Just to add a word (or perhaps some...). Do I like Asashoryu ? Yes. Do I think that everything he does is right ? No. I simply find unfair that every single thing, attitude, move, word that he makes or says has to be criticized up to the smallest molecule.

That is the nature of being a Yokozuna. A number of Yokozuna have said that they thought they would be able to relax once they'd become Yokozuna, but found that in fact the pressure was much, much worse. Because before they were just rikishi on the banzuke. Now they represented sumo. That he is criticized so much indicates how much is expected of him beyond simply winning.

When rikishi are promoted to Yokozuna, they accept with a short phrase that says, with a little variation, "I will do my best not to stain the title of Yokozuna." The reasons Doitsuyama listed, among others, suggest that Asashouryuu is not doing all that he should be in this department.