Natsu 2025 discussion (results)

[Kotogouryuu 137]

13 hours ago, Igordemorais said:

I started watching sumo in 2012, there were so many up and coming stars and so many cool stories. Takanoyama had made it to Maegashira, Kisenosato was a young rising star. We had Myogiryu and stars like Baruto, Kotooshu, Kaio. And Hakuho just kept crushing everyone all the time. Veterans, superstars, up and comers. He was like this massive tree whose shade let no other tree gather sun and thrive. Yeah it was cool to see the GOAT do his thing but.... the happiest moment in all my sumo years was watching Harumafuji beat him in that HUGE match and finally become Yokozuna as well. 

I started in 2012 as well. I watched some matches, and the first full basho I watched all of makuuchi was Aki 2012. 6 ozeki, many rising stars, and the GOAT. Those were good times, indeed. Not many guys left from that banzuke, these days.

[Reonito 1,613]

Can anyone please provide a translation of the monoii explanation for Kirishima's "win" over Takerufuji?

[Kintamayama 45,974]

5 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Well there is a makushita wrestler called Aron and   תָא is Hebrew for "locker" or "cupboard".

Indeed, it's actually closet- excellent!! This is too funny.

[Kintamayama 45,974]

13 hours ago, Reonito said:

Can anyone please provide a translation of the monoii explanation for Kirishima's "win" over Takerufuji?

I'd be glad too, as over at my youtube site there are people sending me to school. "I will  explain our discussion. The gyoji pointed to Kirishima, we wanted to see if they fell together, but we saw that Takerufuji's body fell first, so it's gumbaidori." No mention of dead body. Usually when they mean dead body, they say "the body flew". Kokonoe specifically said that Takerufuji's BODY fell first. But it's a useless discussion. The minute someone cites "the dead body rule!" with superior indignance as if he knew the Secret of the Covenant, I go out for a steak. "There is nothing greyer than the dead body rule and it's implementation." said Confus-ious.

Edited May 20 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 45,974]

5 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Table is out, and sofa translates as "sofa", basically.  OTOH, if we could get a guy with the shikona Shul, we'd have the cute Shul-chan (desk)

Sofa is actually Kursa, so that's pretty much out as well. Unless we will have a Kurosawa. Close enough.

[Reonito 1,613]

19 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I'd be glad too, as over at my youtube site there are people sending me to school. "I will  explain our discussion. The gyoji pointed to Kirishima, we wanted to see if they fell together, but we saw that Takerufuji's body fell first, so it's gumbaidori." No mention of dead body. Usually when they mean dead body, they say "the body flew". Kokonoe specifically said that Takerufuji's BODY fell first. But it's a useless discussion. The minute someone cites "the dead body rule!" with superior indignance as if he knew the Secret of the Covenant, I go out for a steak. "There is noting greyer than the dead body rule and it's implementation." said Confus-ious.

Okay, so they just blew the call, even with the benefit of video replay.

[Sumo Spiffy 621]

3 hours ago, Reonito said:

Okay, so they just blew the call, even with the benefit of video replay.

The replays I saw all showed the same angle, which looks like Kiri touches first because he did a headlock throw and his arm was around Takerufuji's head until the very last second. I only remember seeing something like this once before, and I don't remember which fight it was, but the guy who did the throw won that as well. Basically, to me it looked like they saw Kiri did the throw, did it correctly, and weren't going to punish him because the nature of the throw made him technically touch first.

The one difference between that other example and this is that, the other time, the winner's arm was around the loser's head the whole time. Kiri's arm slipped off at the end here. Should that have flipped the result? I dunno, and I'm not trying to argue the decision was good or bad. Just saying I see more logic here than I do in some other results.

Edited May 20 by Sumo Spiffy

[Reonito 1,613]

23 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

Basically, to me it looked like they saw Kiri did the throw, did it correctly, and weren't going to punish him because the nature of the throw made him technically touch first.

I mean, Takerufuji was doing his best to counter the throw, which likely contributed to Kiri touching first. I don't think they can get into the "he did the technique correctly but touched first" line of argument: if you're obviously yorikiri-ing someone out, but you accidentally step a toe too far in the process, you lose. I was wondering if they might have invoked kabai-te, but it doesn't sound like that was part of the explanation.

[Kaninoyama 1,866]

On the NHK broadcast, Mainoumi, Nakamura out in the arena, and the play-by-play guy were quickly convinced by the video replay that Takerufuji was a flying dead body, even while it was clear that Kirishima touched dirt first. 

[Asashosakari 19,943]

As far as I'm concerned Takerufuji was completely flipped over and did pretty much nothing that actually contributed to Kirishima touching down first, so right call regardless of whether the mono-ii explanation made sense or fit with what they "usually" say. It might be a different matter if the momentum of the whole tussle had actually taken Kirishima out of the ring because then you could make a case for Takerufuji's previous pushing having contributed to it, but what actually transpired IMHO gets called for the rikishi in Kirishima's position at least 90 out of 100 times.

[Kintamayama 45,974]

3 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

The replays I saw all showed the same angle, which looks like Kiri touches first because he did a headlock throw and his arm was around Takerufuji's head until the very last second.

My video has two different angles showing quite clearly that Kirishima's elbow was down first. The explanation of others is that Takerufuji was dead body anyway. I don't buy that. In todays's video, I'll show an instance when the exact same thing went the other way.

Now, suddenly, I saw something I didn't see before which may or may not result in egg on my face. Kirishima's elbow.. It's on the tawara, not on the clay just yet, so maybe Takerufuji was down firsr after all, although a tie would have been appropriate. 

Oops..

[Kintamayama 45,974]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

As far as I'm concerned Takerufuji was completely flipped over and did pretty much nothing that actually contributed to Kirishima touching down first, so right call regardless of whether the mono-ii explanation made sense or fit with what they "usually" say. It might be a different matter if the momentum of the whole tussle had actually taken Kirishima out of the ring because then you could make a case for Takerufuji's previous pushing having contributed to it, but what actually transpired IMHO gets called for the rikishi in Kirishima's position at least 90 out of 100 times.

OK, today's video will show a bout where the exact same thing happened and it went the way of the aggressed. And in case, no dead body was involved. Could be, and I'm not saying it is, that the explanation is much simpler, as I wrote one post up..

[Kintamayama 45,974]

Now I'm convinced- the concept of a leg on the tawara and remaining inside is obvious. But an elbow on the tawara? Technically, he's in. I'm guessing that's what happened. I froze the minute of impact on my vid (from both angles), but didn't notice that fact till now. Now it's glaring at me.

[Kintamayama 45,974]

On the tawara, dang it.

Edited May 20 by Kintamayama

[Jakusotsu 6,188]

40 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Now I'm convinced- the concept of a leg on the tawara and remaining inside is obvious. But an elbow on the tawara?

Elbow down on the tawara should be treated like elbow down inside, same as with feet.

[Kintamayama 45,974]

5 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Elbow down on the tawara should be treated like elbow down inside, same as with feet.

Why? It's part of the body that isn't touching the ground, so he is still regarded as not out, no?

[Morning 90]

6 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Why? It's part of the body that isn't touching the ground, so he is still regarded as not out, no?

Surely the tawara is part of the ground, inside the ring but ground.

 

Otherwise Ura would have surely saved himself at least once by cartwheeling on it.

[Kintamayama 45,974]

24 minutes ago, Morning said:

Surely the tawara is part of the ground, inside the ring but ground.

 

Otherwise Ura would have surely saved himself at least once by cartwheeling on it.

Where is that stated? I'd like to see the rule written. It makes sense, but is it? It very rarely happens, but is it a rule, the tawara being part of the ground? If it is, then I'm looking increasingly borderline,  but will stubbornly be back to my original mode, where I maintain Kirishima lost.

Edited May 20 by Kintamayama

[Jakusotsu 6,188]

On 17/05/2025 at 09:58, Kaninoyama said:

Isegahama Oyakata is doing commentary duties on the NHK broadcast for a final time before retirement. 

...and today on abema.

[dingo 1,388]

Very long time since I've watched live sumo. 

Hakuoho was quite naive hoping to take on a determined Daieisho straight on, couldn't match him at all. 

Onosato won comfortably, but seemed to be unhappy letting Ichiyamamoto escape once from tawara. Realistically he needs three more wins to get the rope. 

Edited May 20 by dingo
Three more wins, not two. Thought there's 4 days left...

[dingo 1,388]

Kotozakura psyched himself up a lot, perhaps too much and did a matta. Second tachiai was much more careful and gave an advantage to Kirishima, though Kotozakura got a good left hand inside grip soon after. But Kotozakura didn't manage to prevent a Kirishima makikae and was on the defensive after that, going out eventually. Still a mountain to climb for the ozeki to reach kachikoshi. 

[Akinomaki 41,186]

Onosato to be promoted to yokozuna-ozeki, Daieisho won't be promoted even if he wins out

[dingo 1,388]

Hoshoryu trying too much to get niramiai going, Ura not really interested 

[dingo 1,388]

Ura slipped, easy win for the yokozuna. 

[Kintamayama 45,974]

41 minutes ago, dingo said:

Hoshoryu trying too much to get niramiai going, Ura not really interested 

Houshouryuu said in an interview a few days ago that he will stop with the niramiai stuff after being criticized for it in the press and by my mom. We shall see.