Steroids in sumo - ONE man has it figured out

[Kuroyama 715]

On second thought: The BMI might really be out of range, but the body fat percentage is prolly lower than most expect.

It's pretty common in athletes for the BMI to be out of range. BMI is a good metric for "average" bodies, not bodies with unusually high muscle mass.

Be that as it may, "lower than most expect" isn't the same as actually low. Most sumo wrestlers *are* clinically obese.

[Skotkotaikai 2]

Awwww, don't give steroids to the trolls! They may gain too much weight :'-(

And to stay on the topic - I don't believe that steroid usage is common in the sumo world.

[Igordemorais 78]

I feel that those of you who are not athletes/fighters or who have never used steroids do not really understand how they work and what they are used for, or their side effects.

My question to those who don't believe that these athletes use steroids is: why wouldn't they use them? There is not a single reason aside from the fact that it is illegal, for them not to use them. But I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[yorikiried by fate 2,035]

There is not a single reason aside from the fact that it is illegal [...]

My thoughts are racing to figure out a way of saying this in my next what's-with-those-drugs discussion keeping a straight face!

[Asashosakari 19,943]

My question to those who don't believe that these athletes use steroids is: why wouldn't they use them?

For much the same reason not every rikishi decides to do yaocho when offered - some have a moral foundation and/or a sufficiently persuasive coach that leads them to consider PEDs as, well, cheating.

I'm harbouring no illusions that sumo might be steroid-free, but I'd be surprised if there are significant numbers that use them consistently and administered "professionally" (for lack of a better word) with proper cycling etc.. Consider one thing: Unlike many other martial arts athletes, sumotori typically don't have a whole lot of contact with practitioners of other sports during their early years of professional training. It's only once they become sekitori/famous/celebrities that they'll be able to build a circle of acquaintances that includes more than 60-year-old financial supporters of their stable.

BTW, for folks unclear on the concept of trolling, just compare the posts by the two "steroids in sumo = yes" posters in the thread. One: trolling; the other = not trolling. I trust you'll be able to figure out who's who.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Asashosakari

[Morty 1,517]

I feel that those of you who are not athletes/fighters or who have never used steroids do not really understand how they work and what they are used for, or their side effects.

My question to those who don't believe that these athletes use steroids is: why wouldn't they use them? There is not a single reason aside from the fact that it is illegal, for them not to use them. But I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Without meaning to patronise you, I know you are new to sumo and there are differences with other combat sports. Yes, rikishi are athletes but they are not the same as other fighters, and they don't operate in the same world as other professional athletes. Sumo is not a sport in the same way that other combat sports are. The heya world controls every aspect of a rikishi's life from what they eat, where they go, how they dress, whether they are allowed to drive cars etc. Each rikishi at any level is under the command of a shisho who pretty much runs their life.

See wikipedia's take on sumo life:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumo#Life_as_a_professional_sumo_wrestler

So to answer your question why they wouldn't be on the gas, is because it goes against all the tradition of sumo. The conservative shisho's wouldn't condone it so the rikishis wouldn't use it. The risks are simply too great. The culture of sumo is why they wouldn't be using steroids. Cultural prohibitions often outweigh the need to win at all costs

[Asashosakari 19,943]

One thing that might be interesting to know in this discussion - are PEDs as significant a problem in Japanese high school sports as they sometimes appear to be in the US school systems? (Or have I fallen for media hype there?) If so, that could shoot a hole into my notion that would-be rikishi don't have much of a chance of early contact to steroids.

[Maguroyama 27]

Hooray, two roid-heads in the final!

I'm sure you have proof of this...? (Besides the usual "Oh, it's obvious to everyone")

There is simply no way to put on the kind of weight that Hakuho did without 'help'. Working out and eating a lot only goes so far.

Yes, rapid weight gain - virtually unheard of in the world of sumo. I bow to your superior evidence.

It's true. Men virtually never put on significant weight after age 16, especially when they grow a few cm at the same time.

Absolutely correct.

You ARE kidding, right? Otherwise, your credibilty factor just dropped below zero. I don't even know why I keep feeding...

[Skotkotaikai 2]

As far as I know in all sports sportsmen have doctors who give them medications and substances. I don't think that rikishi with common sense would take steroids on their own. If they do, they'd take what their doctor gives them. (Some would do it on their own I guess, but these should be minority).

So, I guess it all depends on the politics of the stables. And what are these politics I do not know. But I've always imagined they wouldn't approve steroids and such nasty substances. Hope it is like that :)

Edited July 23, 2012 by Skotkotaikai

[Masumasumasu 902]

It's true. Men virtually never put on significant weight after age 16, especially when they grow a few cm at the same time.

Absolutely correct.

You ARE kidding, right? Otherwise, your credibilty factor just dropped below zero. I don't even know why I keep feeding...

It is true. Men usually do not put on SIGNIFICANT weight after the age of 16 without help. Certainly not muscle mass. Most people have done the MAJORITY (not all) of their growing by the time they reach their sixteenth birthday. Eating a lot and working out doesn't put on the kind of muscle mass that Hakuho did in '03/'04 when he was 18--not 16--by the way.

It is your emotions that hamper YOUR credibility, not mine.

[Skotkotaikai 2]

It's true. Men virtually never put on significant weight after age 16, especially when they grow a few cm at the same time.

Absolutely correct.

You ARE kidding, right? Otherwise, your credibilty factor just dropped below zero. I don't even know why I keep feeding...

It is true. Men usually do not put on SIGNIFICANT weight after the age of 16 without help. Certainly not muscle mass. Most people have done the MAJORITY (not all) of their growing by the time they reach their sixteenth birthday. Eating a lot and working out doesn't put on the kind of muscle mass that Hakuho did in '03/'04 when he was 18--not 16--by the way.

It is your emotions that hamper YOUR credibility, not mine.

Masumasumasu, could you please post some link to the information which you mentioned? You know, men growing after the age of 16 and all. My cousin just turned 15 and he is very keen on mass gaining, so he wants to know if it is too late for him. Thank you in advance.

Btw, good point mentioning emotions! Maguroyama, you should be thankful to Masumasumasu. He wants to help you. Did you know that there is a certain creature which feeds off the emotions of people? If someone annoys you in a forum for example, this parasite will feast on your emotions. So, keep emotions in check. I know you'd tell me such a beast does not exist, but it does... It is not some fantasy critter which dwells in our dreams only :( Forgot the name though. It was some fancy name starting with T.... .

Edited July 23, 2012 by Skotkotaikai

[Kuroyama 715]

It is true. Men usually do not put on SIGNIFICANT weight after the age of 16 without help.

You have GOT to be kidding. Seriously, are you smoking something that you ought to be sharing with the rest of us?

[ronnie 221]

I got married when I was 28 y.o. Weighed 11 and a half stone (14 pounds to the stone if ya wanna work it out). 28 years later, I've added more poundage than I would care to admit to.

Now the only real pharmaceutics I've used have been painkillers, co-codamol or solpadol, depending on which country you live in.

Maybe I'm a freak :-O

[Masumasumasu 902]

It's true. Men virtually never put on significant weight after age 16, especially when they grow a few cm at the same time.

Absolutely correct.

You ARE kidding, right? Otherwise, your credibilty factor just dropped below zero. I don't even know why I keep feeding...

It is true. Men usually do not put on SIGNIFICANT weight after the age of 16 without help. Certainly not muscle mass. Most people have done the MAJORITY (not all) of their growing by the time they reach their sixteenth birthday. Eating a lot and working out doesn't put on the kind of muscle mass that Hakuho did in '03/'04 when he was 18--not 16--by the way.

It is your emotions that hamper YOUR credibility, not mine.

Masumasumasu, could you please post some link to the information which you mentioned? You know, men growing after the age of 16 and all. My cousin just turned 15 and he is very keen on mass gaining, so he wants to know if it is too late for him. Thank you in advance.

If your cousin wants to put on the kind of muscle mass that Hakuho did, tell him to use steroids. Lifting weights and eating a lot will only go so far.

[Masumasumasu 902]

It is true. Men usually do not put on SIGNIFICANT weight after the age of 16 without help.

You have GOT to be kidding. Seriously, are you smoking something that you ought to be sharing with the rest of us?

It's called 'sour kush'.

If you take the time to read what I wrote you will notice the word 'SIGNIFICANT' in italics. And I was speaking of lean muscle, not flab.

[Masumasumasu 902]

I got married when I was 28 y.o. Weighed 11 and a half stone (14 pounds to the stone if ya wanna work it out). 28 years later, I've added more poundage than I would care to admit to.

Now the only real pharmaceutics I've used have been painkillers, co-codamol or solpadol, depending on which country you live in.

Maybe I'm a freak :-O

You added lean muscle mass? I seriously doubt it.

Read what I wrote before you waste your time responding.

[Morty 1,517]

Re body mass after 16. Puberty happens at different time with different people. Here is the wiki page on puberty in males and females:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty

Just in case you can't find the relevant bit I'll quote it:

This muscle develops mainly during the later stages of puberty, and muscle growth can continue even after boys are biologically adult. The peak of the so-called "strength spurt", the rate of muscle growth, is attained about one year after a male experiences his peak growth rate.

The fact that Hakuho grew 3.5cm in that year and then added another couple after that would suggest that he went through puberty late and was still growing, and putting on muscle, until about the age of 20.

Beyond that there are other ways to gain both muscle and fat without the aid of PEDs. The internet is your friend if you want to find out how and maybe learn a bit how the human body really works, rather than relying on specious generalisations that undermine your argument :-).

[Masumasumasu 902]

Re body mass after 16. Puberty happens at different time with different people. Here is the wiki page on puberty in males and females:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty

Just in case you can't find the relevant bit I'll quote it:

This muscle develops mainly during the later stages of puberty, and muscle growth can continue even after boys are biologically adult. The peak of the so-called "strength spurt", the rate of muscle growth, is attained about one year after a male experiences his peak growth rate.

The fact that Hakuho grew 3.5cm in that year and then added another couple after that would suggest that he went through puberty late and was still growing, and putting on muscle, until about the age of 20.

Beyond that there are other ways to gain both muscle and fat without the aid of PEDs. The internet is your friend if you want to find out how and maybe learn a bit how the human body really works, rather than relying on specious generalisations that undermine your argument :-).

I seriously doubt that Hakuho experienced late puberty but at any rate, why the desperation in disproving my assertion that the Yokozuna's dominance is entirely due to his use of PEDs? ;-)

Edited July 24, 2012 by Masumasumasu

[Morty 1,517]

Re body mass after 16. Puberty happens at different time with different people. Here is the wiki page on puberty in males and females:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty

Just in case you can't find the relevant bit I'll quote it:

This muscle develops mainly during the later stages of puberty, and muscle growth can continue even after boys are biologically adult. The peak of the so-called "strength spurt", the rate of muscle growth, is attained about one year after a male experiences his peak growth rate.

The fact that Hakuho grew 3.5cm in that year and then added another couple after that would suggest that he went through puberty late and was still growing, and putting on muscle, until about the age of 20.

Beyond that there are other ways to gain both muscle and fat without the aid of PEDs. The internet is your friend if you want to find out how and maybe learn a bit how the human body really works, rather than relying on specious generalisations that undermine your argument :-).

I seriously doubt that Hakuho experienced late puberty but at any rate, why the desperation in disproving my assertion that the Yokozuna's dominance is entirely due to his use of PEDs? ;-)

I'm not disproving anything because you haven't put forward any evidence to support your argument. All you've done is make cynical statements without basis in fact. What I'm doing is providing some factual evidence to this debate.

And besides I like engaging with trolls. I'm weird like that.

[Orion 431]

As far as I know in all sports sportsmen have doctors who give them medications and substances. I don't think that rikishi with common sense would take steroids on their own. If they do, they'd take what their doctor gives them. (Some would do it on their own I guess, but these should be minority).

So, I guess it all depends on the politics of the stables. And what are these politics I do not know. But I've always imagined they wouldn't approve steroids and such nasty substances. Hope it is like that :)

The Sumo Kyokai provides a specialized clinic with its own nurses and doctors. In the present Kokugikan it is down in the basement; it used to be in a separate building in Chitose, just south of Ryogoku. It provides a number of services: (in no particular order) routine health checks for active rikishi and oyakata, first aid, newbie measurements and basic tests, advice to the newly-retired on sensibly taking off the weight, individual consultations, and referrals to hospitals. Of course there's no reason a man shouldn't go to an outside doctor on his own account, but with regular services provided by professionals who specialize in working with sumo people and are paid to do so by the Kyokai, it's hard to see why he would want to.

Orion

[IvanW 3]

The steroids generally used to mask injury for example cortisone, are not anabolic therfore no significant growth in mass, strength would occur anyway.

Yes some rikishi have a lower / low body fat percentage to what would be expected. but BMI does not take this in to account therefore they will be clinicaly obese.

Those scientific documenteries are rubbish they are manipulated to suit the required results, I saw one where it 'proved' Basket ballers had the strongest leg muscle in all sports stars. Weightlifters, powerlifters., sumo, sprinters all have scientifically proven stronger muscles all they did was say that bascketballers must have striongest legs as they can jump higher (they used a 5 foot 7 sprinter 5 foot 8 soccer player and a 5 foot 4 gymnsat) made them do a vertical jump and measured the height at wich their fingers reached on a wall. the bascket ballers were both 6 foot 10 so clearly went higher. worst 'scientific program ever'

[Igordemorais 78]

Let us take a moment to look at something, here: Takanoyama`s infamous insulin use.

Now, insulin is THE single most dangerous anabolic substante you can use. It is the one that can KILL you right then and there. Hypoglycemic shock is always a risk. Now, insulin just so happens to be one of the most powerful anabolic substances too.

The issue is this: I understand that Tak had insulin readily available since his master was a diabetic ( and practically forced him to use it) but people never try insulin first, nor do they use it without any understanding, because it is absolutely deadly if used wrong.

Typically insulin is the last anabolic substante any athlete will try, once he gets past the typical testosterone esthers ( propionate, enanthate, cipionate, etc). and your classics stanozololol, dianabol, and your oral buddies hemogenin and oxandrolone.

The fact that Takanoyama would use insulin means to me that he has tried everything before with little success. It is indicative of previous steroid use

I believe the heart of the issue is the following: I do not think that the athletes think there is something wrong with steroids. I see nothing wrong with it, at all. When you take into account what sumo is like, it is just a tick short of a necessity. The mentality that steroids are cheating only applies to sport in which there is testing and some ( several, actually) cycle correctly in order to not get caught, by understanding the half-life of the drug, using the correct masking substances, etc.

So some of you might find it outrageous, morally wrong, etc. that a rikishi would inject himself with steroids. I find that it makes perfect sense that a top level athlete with inhuman physical requirements would need farmaceutical assistance. Sumo is brutal, you all know that too well. There is NO sport like it. I've been an athlete my whole life and sumo`s physical demands are flat out degrading to one's health.

Steroids are anabolic androgenic hormones which your body naturally produces. Nowadays the use of steroids after a certain age is considered a miracle of science to keep your youth. 500ml of testosterone enanthate once a week, it's called hormone replacement therapy. It's legal and it's good for you.

Now, don't get me wrong here, I'm not telling all the kids to run a 10 week deca-dura cycle or something of the sort. What I'm saying is: in such a high pressure environment where cheating is widespread, where injury is a constant and where size and strength are everything, steroids are so tame and when used correctly also harmless, that I don't see it as something that only a few would use, but at best something that only a few would not use.

The moral issue, to me, is a non-issue. No testing means "hey, feel free to keep up".

Edited July 24, 2012 by Igordemorais

[hoshidango 0]

Wakanosato looks like one. Kirishima suddenly bulked up like one. Maybe?

[Igordemorais 78]

Here's an interview with Angel Heredia, the red parts are outlined by me. I believe this should pretty much settle the issue, added to what we've already discussed.

---

11.08.2008

Angel Heredia, once a doping dealer and now a chief witness for the U.S. Justice Department, talks about the powerlessness of the investigators, the motives of athletes who cheat and the drugs of the future.

He had been in hiding under an assumed name in a hotel in Laredo, Texas, for two years when the FBI finally caught up with him. The agents wanted to know from Angel Heredia if he knew a coach by the name of Trevor Graham, whether he carried the nickname “Memo”, and what he knew about doping. "No", "no", "nothing" – those were his replies. But then the agents laid the transcripts of 160 wiretapped telephone conversations on the table, as well as the e-mails and the bank statements. That’s when Angel "Memo" Heredia knew that he had lost. He decided to cooperate, and he also knew that he would only have a chance if he didn’t lie – not a single time. “He’s telling the truth,” the investigators say about Heredia today.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Heredia, will you watch the 100 meter final in Beijing?

Heredia: Of course. But the winner will not be clean. Not even any of the contestants will be clean.

SPIEGEL: Of eight runners ...

Heredia: ... eight will be doped.

SPIEGEL: There is no way to prove that.

Heredia: There is no doubt about it. The difference between 10.0 and 9.7 seconds is the drugs.

SPIEGEL: Can drugs make anyone into a world record holder?

Heredia: No, that is a misapprehension: “You take a couple of tablets today and tomorrow you can really fly.” In reality you have to train inconceivably hard, be very talented and have a perfect team of trainers and support staff. And then it is the best drugs that make the difference. It is all a great composition, a symphony. Everything is linked together, do you understand? And drugs have a long-term effect: they ensure that you can recover, that you avoid the catabolic phases. Volleyball on the beach might be healthy, but peak athletics is not healthy. You destroy your body. Marion Jones, for example ...

SPIEGEL: ... five-time Olympic medallist at Sydney 2000 ...

Heredia: ... trained with an unparalleled intensity. Drugs protect you from injury. And she triumphed and picked up all the medals.

SPIEGEL: Are you proud?

Heredia: Of course, I still am. It is still a tremendous achievement, and you must not believe that Marion’s rivals were poor, deceived competitors.

SPIEGEL: This isn’t just an American problem?

Heredia: Are you kidding me? No. All countries, all federations, all top athletes are affected, and among those responsible are the big shoe companies like Nike and Adidas. I know athletes who broke records; a year later they were injured and they got the call: “We’re cutting your sponsorship money by 50 percent.” What do you think such athletes then do?

SPIEGEL: Tell us what you did for your clients.

Heredia: Athletes hear rumors and they become worried. That the competition has other tricks, that they might get caught when they travel. There is no room for mistakes. One mistake can ruin a career.

SPIEGEL: So you became a therapist for the athletes in matters of drugs?

Heredia: More like a coach. Together we found out what was good for which body and what the decomposition times were. I designed schedules for cocktails and regimens that depended on the money the athletes offered me. Street drugs for little money, designer drugs for tens of thousands. Usually I sent the drugs by mail, but sometimes the athletes came to me.

SPIEGEL: With Marion Jones ...

Heredia: ... it was about the recovery phases. In 2000 she competed in one event after another, and she needed to relax. I gave her epo, growth hormone, adrenaline injections, insulin. Insulin helps after training, together with protein drinks: insulin transports protein and minerals more quickly through the cell membrane.

SPIEGEL: Jones was afraid of needles.

Heredia: Yes, that’s why C. J. Hunter, her husband at the time, and her trainer Trevor Graham mixed her three substances in one injection. I advised them against it because I thought it was risky.

SPIEGEL: What kind of relationship did you have with your athletes?

Heredia: Business ties. It was all about levels and dosing. I rarely spoke with Marion. It was done through her coaches.

Part II: How Heredia outwitted the drug testers and became the dealer to the world’s best athletes.

SPIEGEL: Was there a doping cycle?

Heredia: Yes. When the season ended in October, we waited for a couple of weeks for the body to cleanse itself. Then in November, we loaded growth hormone and epo, and twice a week we examined the body to make sure that no lumps were forming in the blood. Then we gave testosterone shots. This first program lasted eight to ten weeks, then we took a break.

SPIEGEL: And then the goals for the season were established?

Heredia: Yes, that depended on the athlete. Some wanted to run a good time in April to win contracts for the tournaments. Others focused on nothing but the trials, the U.S. qualification for international championships. Others cared only about the Olympics. Then we set the countdown for the goal in question, and the next cycle began. I had to know my athletes well and have an overview of what federation tested with which methods.

SPIEGEL: Where does one get this information?

Heredia: Vigilance. Informers.

SPIEGEL: You were once a good discus thrower yourself.

Heredia: Very good in Mexico, but very average by international standards. I had played soccer, boxed and done karate before I ended up in track and field. At 13 or 14 I believed in clean sports. Doping was a crime to me; back then I even asked my father if I could take aspirin.

SPIEGEL: Why did you begin doping?

Heredia: Like all athletes: because others were doing it. All of a sudden, kids that I used to beat were throwing ten meters further. Then I had an injury but I wanted to qualify for the Olympic team anyway. Doping became to me what it is for most athletes: part of the sport. If you train for 12 hours today and your trainer expects you to train for 12 hours again tomorrow, you dope. Otherwise you can’t do it.

SPIEGEL: What did you take?

Heredia: Growth hormone. Testosterone.

SPIEGEL: But you failed to qualify for the Olympics anyway.

Heredia: Yes, but I read anything I could find about medicine, spoke with other athletes, and soon people were saying: Angel knows how it’s done. He knows how to pass the tests. The first athletes began to ask me for advice. That’s how it started, and at some point the trainer Trevor Graham asked me if I could help him. I explained to him how epo works, and I was in business.

SPIEGEL: What qualified you for the role of dealer to the world’s best athletes?

Heredia: My father is a chemistry professor. I love chemistry, and I was an athlete. My role was an obsession. For example, I learned everything about testosterone: that there is a type of testosterone with a high half-life and another that works very quickly. I learned that you can rub it in, take it orally, inject it. It became a kick: I was allowed to work with the best of the best, and I made them even better.

SPIEGEL: And how did you become the best in your world?

Heredia: With precision. You want an example? Everyone talks about epo. Epo is fashionable. But without adding iron, epo only works half as well. That’s the kind of thing you have to know. There are oxygen carriers that make epo work incredibly fast – they are actually better than epo alone. I call my drug “Epo Boost.” I inject it and it releases many tiny oxygen molecules throughout the body. In that way you increase the effect of epo by a factor of ten.

SPIEGEL: Do you have any other secrets?

Heredia: Oh yes, of course. There are tablets for the kidneys that block the metabolites of steroids, so when athletes give a urine sample, they don’t excrete the metabolites and thus test negative. Or there is an enzyme that slowly consumes proteins - epo has protein structures, and the enzyme thus ensures that the B sample of the doping test has a completely different value than the A sample. Then there are chemicals that you take a couple of hours before the race that prevent acidification in the muscles. Together with epo they are an absolute miracle. I’ve created 20 different drugs that are still undetectable for the doping testers.

SPIEGEL: What trainers have you worked together with?

Heredia: Particularly with Trevor Graham.

SPIEGEL: Graham has a lifetime ban because he purportedly helped Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Justin Gatlin and many others to cheat. Who else?

Heredia: With Winthrop Graham, his cousin. With John Smith, Maurice Greene’s coach. With Raymond Stewart, the Jamaican. With Dennis Mitchell ...

SPIEGEL: ... who won gold in the 4 x 100 meters in 1992 and today is a coach. How did the collaboration work?

Heredia: It’s a small world. It gets around who can provide you with something how quickly and at what price, who is discreet. The coaches approached me and asked if I could help them, and I said: yes. Then they gave me money, $15,000 or thereabouts, we got a first shipment and then we did business. At some point it led to one-on-one cooperation with the athletes.

SPIEGEL: Was there a regimen of sorts?

Heredia: Yes. I always combined several things. For example, I had one substance called actovison that increased blood circulation – not detectable. That was good from a health standpoint and even better from a competitive standpoint. Then we had the growth factors IGF-1 and IGF-2. And epo. Epo increases the number of red blood cells and thus the transportation of oxygen, which is the key for every athlete: the athlete wants to recover quickly, keep the load at a constantly high level and achieve a constant performance.

SPIEGEL: Once again: a constant performance at the world-class level is unthinkable without doping?

Heredia: Correct. 400 meters in 44 seconds? Unthinkable. 71 meters with a discus? No way. You might be able to run 100 meters in 9.8 seconds once with a tailwind. But ten times a year under 10 seconds, in the rain or heat? Only with doping.

Part III: “If he maintains he is clean, I can only answer that that is a lie.”

SPIEGEL: Testosterone, growth hormone, epo – that was your combination?

Heredia: Yes, with individual variations. And then amazing things are possible. In 2002 Jerome Young was ranked number 38 in the 400 meters. Then we began to work together, and in 2003 he won almost every big race.

SPIEGEL: How were you paid?

Heredia: I had an annual wage. For big wins I got a $40,000 bonus.

SPIEGEL: Your athletes have won 26 Olympic medals. How much money did you earn?

Heredia: I can’t answer that due to the investigations. But let’s put it this way: 16 to 18 successful athletes each year at between $15,000 and $20,000 per athlete. I had a good run. I had a good life.

SPIEGEL: Did you live in the shadows of the sports world, where no one was allowed to see you?

Heredia: No. I rarely traveled to the big events, but that was because of jealousy: the Americans didn’t want me to work with the Jamaicans and vice versa. But shadows? No. It was one big chain, from athletes to agents to sponsors, and I was part of it. But everyone knew how the game worked. Everyone wanted it to be this way, because everyone got rich off it.

SPIEGEL: Which agents do you mean?

Heredia: The big marketers – Robert Wagner, for example – who support the athletes and want to get them into top form because they place the athletes at the track meetings.

The Austrian marketer Wagner, founder of World Athletics Management, wrote last Thursday in an e-mail to SPIEGEL, that he “never doped athletes” or “supported and promoted” doping. And Angel Heredia, the chief witness, sat in an office in New York, an athletic man in a black shirt, still in excellent shape, and wrote down names on a sheet of paper. 41 track and field athletes, he said, were his clients, as well as boxers, soccer players and cross-country skiers. His Jamaicans: Raymond Stewart, Beverly McDonald, Brandon Simpson. From the Bahamas: Chandra Sturrup. A couple of his Americans: Jerome Young, Antonio Pettigrew, Tim Montgomery, Duane Ross, Michelle Collins, Marion Jones, C. J. Hunter, Ramon Clay, Dennis Mitchell, Joshua J. Johnson, Randall Evans, Justin Gatlin, Maurice Greene. Some of those named by Heredia have been caught doping. Others have admitted to doping, while still others deny it.

SPIEGEL: Maurice Greene? The 100 meter superstar Greene is one of the poster athletes of the Olympic movement; he swears he is clean.

Heredia: The investigations are ongoing, but if he maintains he is clean, I can only answer that that is a lie.

SPIEGEL: Can you be more specific?

Heredia: I helped him. I made a schedule for him. I equipped him.

SPIEGEL: Equipped?

Heredia: Yes, we worked together in 2003 and 2004.

SPIEGEL: Do you have receipts?

Heredia: Yes, I have a $10,000 bank transfer receipt, for example.

SPIEGEL: Greene says he spent that money on friends.

Heredia: I know that’s not true.

SPIEGEL: What did Greene, who denies having doped, get from you?

Heredia: IGF-1 and IGF-2, epo and ATP – that stands for adenosine triphosphate, which intensifies muscle contraction.

SPIEGEL: Undetectable for testers?

Heredia: Undetectable. We’ve used ointments that do not leave any traces and that enable a consistently high testosterone level in athletes.

SPIEGEL: Is there doping at every level of athletics?

Heredia: Yes, the only difference is the quality of the doping. Athletes with little money use simple steroids and hope they don’t get tested. The stars earn 50,000 dollars a month, not including starting bonuses and shoe sponsorship contracts. The very best invest 100,000 dollars – I’ll then build you a designer drug that can’t be detected.

SPIEGEL: Explain how this works.

Heredia: Designer drugs are composed of several different chemicals that trigger the desired reaction. At the end of the chain I change one or two molecules in such a way that the entire structure is undetectable for the doping testers.

SPIEGEL: The drug testers’ hunt of athletes ...

Heredia: ... is also a sport. A competition. Pure adrenaline. We have to be one or two years ahead of them. We have to know which drug is entering research where, which animals it is being used in, and where we can get it. And we have to be familiar with the testers’ methods.

SPIEGEL: Can the testers win this race?

Heredia: Theoretically yes. If all federations and sponsors and managers and athletes and trainers were all in agreement, if they were to invest all the money that the sport generates and if every athlete were to be tested twice a week – but only then. What’s happening now is laughable. It’s a token. They should save their money – or give it to me. I’ll give it to the orphans of Mexico! There will be doping for as long as there is commercial sports, performance-related shoe contracts and television contracts.

4. Teil: “Peak performances without doping are a fairytale.”

SPIEGEL: So the idea that sports are a fair competition within established rules actually died long ago?

Heredia: Yes, of course. Unless we were to go back to ancient times. Without television, without Adidas and Nike. It’s obvious: if you finish in 8th place at a big event, you get $5,000; if you finish first you get $100,000. Athletes think about this. Then they think that everyone else dopes anyway, and they are right. And you think athletes believe in morals and ideals? Peak performances without doping are a fairytale, my friend.

SPIEGEL: Do you advocate the authorization of doping?

Heredia: No, but I believe we should authorize the use of epo, IGF and testosterone, as well as adrenaline and epitestosterone – substances that the body produces itself. Simply for pragmatic reasons, because it is impossible to detect them, and also because of the fairness aspect.

SPIEGEL: Are you serious: fairness?

Heredia: Yes. Take for example the most popular drug: epo. Epo changes the hemoglobin value, and it is simply the case that people have different hemoglobin levels. Authorizing the use of epo would enable the fairness and equality that supposedly everyone wants. After all, there are genetic differences between athletes.

SPIEGEL: Differences between living things are called nature. You want to make all athletes the same through doping?

Heredia: Normal athletes have a level of 3 nanograms of testosterone per milliliter of blood; the sprinter Tim Montgomery has 3 nanograms, but Maurice Greene has 9 nanograms. So what can Tim do? It isn’t doping with endogenous substances that’s unfair, it is nature that’s unfair.

SPIEGEL: And what would you ban?

Heredia: Everything else that can be dangerous. Amphetamines? Ban them. Steroids? Ban them.

SPIEGEL: Are there still any clean disciplines?

Heredia: Track and field, swimming, cross-country skiing and cycling can no longer be saved. Golf? Not clean either. Soccer? Soccer players come to me and say they have to be able to run up and down the touchline without becoming tired, and they have to play every three days. Basketball players take fat burners – amphetamines, ephedrin. Baseball? Haha. Steroids in pre-season, amphetamines during the games. Even archers take downers so that their arm remains steady. Everyone dopes.

SPIEGEL: Did you produce the drugs yourself, or did you simply procure them?

Heredia: I didn’t have my own laboratory, I had… let’s say access to labs in Mexico City. I purchased and procured the raw materials ...

SPIEGEL: ... from where?

Heredia: Everywhere. Australia, South Africa, Austria, Bulgaria, China. I got growth hormone from the Swiss company Serono. It was never difficult to import it to Mexico, because the laws aren’t that strict. You can easily buy it in pharmacies in Mexico. Whenever a new drug was entering the test phase somewhere in the world, we knew about it and we ordered it. Then I combined substances. Sometimes I produced a gel.

SPIEGEL: Did you ever take the doping testers seriously?

Heredia: No, we laughed at them. Today, of course, it is the testers who are laughing.

SPIEGEL: How do you make a living today?

Heredia: I still have a little bit of money. I’m studying again. I want to become a pharmacist. That’s my dream, but I don’t know if I’ll find a job, if I will be charged, if I will be deported, or where I’ll go. I don’t have a life anymore. I walk around and make sure no one is following me. But compared to Jerome Young I’m doing okay.

SPIEGEL: What is the 2003 world champion doing today?

Heredia: He’s 31 years old, and he sits in a truck and delivers bread. People say he broke the laws of the sport, but that’s not true: it was exactly these rules that Jerome followed.

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[Flohru 177]

Here's an interview with Angel Heredia, the red parts are outlined by me. I believe this should pretty much settle the issue, added to what we've already discussed.

Oh yes, thanks for quoting that, now everything seems settled indeed after reading a former drug dealer justifying his actions by telling the world everyone does drugs, needs to do drugs and it is nevertheless still a great achievement to make it to the top in any kind of sports.