Jaak 7 Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Who is the second greatest ozeki after Raiden? Is it Kaio, or does anyone else rank between Raiden and Kaio? BTW, yusho at 43... were Raiden Edited July 19, 2011 by Jaak Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Randomitsuki 2,908 Posted July 19, 2011 Who is the second greatest ozeki after Raiden?Is it Kaio, or does anyone else rank between Raiden and Kaio? BTW, yusho at 43... were Raiden Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jaak 7 Posted July 19, 2011 Tanikaze and Onogawa had been yokozuna. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Randomitsuki 2,908 Posted July 19, 2011 Tanikaze and Onogawa had been yokozuna.Oops, you are right. I have been working from memory which I shouldn't. However, I still stand by my remark about sumo being a staged entertainment affair back then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 20,282 Posted July 19, 2011 Oops, you are right. I have been working from memory which I shouldn't. However, I still stand by my remark about sumo being a staged entertainment affair back then. No, you were right; the rank of yokozuna was introduced much later. It wasn't a (performance-based) rank in the times of Tanikaze and Onogawa, just a title, so Raiden's winning alone couldn't see him become one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jaak 7 Posted July 19, 2011 Kashiwado looks like a definite number 2. Who else rank ahead of Kaio? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaji 1 Posted July 20, 2011 Kashiwado looks like a definite number 2.Who else rank ahead of Kaio? Kashiwado was a Yokozuna, wasn't he? Maybe Tochiazuma, Chiyotaikai and Takanohana Kenshi could compete with Kaio in the "contest" of the gratest ozeki ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,260 Posted July 20, 2011 Kashiwado looks like a definite number 2.Who else rank ahead of Kaio? Kashiwado was a Yokozuna, wasn't he? There were 12 different Kashiwado, two of them with Ozeki as the highest rank. Difficult to say which one he is talking about as both had pretty similar (successful) careers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yorikiried by fate 2,038 Posted July 20, 2011 Second vainest thread, this one? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jaak 7 Posted July 22, 2011 Kashiwado looks like a definite number 2.Who else rank ahead of Kaio? Kashiwado was a Yokozuna, wasn't he? There were 12 different Kashiwado, two of them with Ozeki as the highest rank. Difficult to say which one he is talking about as both had pretty similar (successful) careers. Kashiwado Sogoro fought 9 basho as ozeki, and gained just 1 yusho. Whereas Kashiwado Risuke had 21 basho as ozeki, and 16 yusho. Kashiwado Risuke was offered yokozuna title - and refused. So does he count as an ozeki or as the yokozuna he refused to be? Obviously the strongest ozeki would be one who faced and (narrowly) missed toughest yokozuna promotion criteria. The last ozeki to collect more yushos than Kaio was one Araiwa Kamenosuke, with 6. Out of 2 per year. What was the bigger achievement - Kaio Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jejima 1,498 Posted July 23, 2011 Tanikaze and Onogawa had been yokozuna.Oops, you are right. I have been working from memory which I shouldn't. However, I still stand by my remark about sumo being a staged entertainment affair back then. From what I recall, Raiden's sponsor was a lowish ranking nobleman (or something along those lines), and it was mostly (entirely?) due to this that Raiden was not given the title of Yokozuna (which wasn't - and still isn't (officially at least, I think) an 'official' rank - merely an Ozeki with bells on). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaji 1 Posted July 23, 2011 In the XVIII and XIX centuries the title of Yokozuna was mainly honorific, more related to politics than to a sumotori's records in the doy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Otokonoyama 2,735 Posted July 23, 2011 Looking at some historical analysis, it's difficult to say... http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=25759 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonosuke 28 Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) In my sumo watching life, I would say the strongest ozeki was Konishiki. Konishiki had more than size though that alone overwhelmed most others and highlighted his career. In many ways like Kaio he was a lovable ozeki as, as much as you wanted some smaller rikishi like Mainoumi to beat him but in the end you really felt he took a part of your sumo life away when he retired. In that he was the closest to what Kaio symbolized that sumo is not simply more than winning and losing. Tochiazuma and Kotomitsuki could have left more distinguished records if their career was not cut short. Musoyama, Dejima and Takanonami left some impression but more often than not, their sumo was for the most part predictable. While I admire MIyabiyama's tenacity, I hope he realizes when to draw the line and stop tarnishing the image of the rank. I personally liked Kirishima more than any other ozeki but like Harumafuji, he lacked a physique to really challenge powerful yokozuna. However his sumo never lacked vision nor inspiration. Edited July 23, 2011 by Jonosuke Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ashikawazu 43 Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) First of all, in Raiden's time sumo essentially was yaocho, not much different from pro-wrestling nowadays. Ironically you bring this up now.. in light of all thats happened, you could easily replace 'pro-wrestling' with 'sumo' in the above sentence; completely invalidating your argument. ;) (No disrespect to Kaio) Edited July 26, 2011 by Ashikawazu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jaak 7 Posted July 28, 2011 In the XVIII and XIX centuries the title of Yokozuna was mainly honorific, more related to politics than to a sumotori's records in the doy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,260 Posted July 28, 2011 For example, what were the reasons for promotions of Musashiyama Takeshi and Minanogawa Tozo, and nonpromotion of Shimizugawa Motokichi? I recommend this nice lecture. :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jaak 7 Posted July 28, 2011 For example, what were the reasons for promotions of Musashiyama Takeshi and Minanogawa Tozo, and nonpromotion of Shimizugawa Motokichi? I recommend this nice lecture. :-) Interesting. Quoted as "not being from a major heya". Was it also the case with Araiwa Kamenosuke? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
