The Best of the Americans

[Mark Buckton 1]

The American Jidai is all but over in sumo. It may one day return but not in the foreseeable future.

So, considering length of time at rank / level, championships won and win loss ratios who was the best of the (US) bunch for you.?

Of the choices above I have stuck with the obvious which is no disrespect to Sentoryu etc but.... (even including Takamiyama was iffy)

My own vote went to Musashimaru when all aspects of the second paragraph were considered.

ANR (Sigh...)

[Manekineko 200]

Takamiyama - 'cause the first are always the best. (Sigh...)

Edit: and he's so cuddly! See:

Edited December 7, 2003 by Manekineko

[tominishiki 0]

I vote for Musa because he is the only rikishi from the list that I soe him fighting

[Zuikakuyama 1]

I voted for Takemiyama because of his long career and that fact that he was still in Makuuchi when he was close to 40..

Akebono would be my second choice because he won numerous yushos during the early to mid 90's, which is the most competitive period in recent memory.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I was really a bigger fan of Musashimaru than Akebono, and Akebono's latest escapades aren't exactly endearing.

Still, I can't help but feel that Akebono has been the most impressive of the Americans, both on and off the dohyo, so I'll have to go with the big guy among big guys and also hope he'll have a nice continuation of his life outside of sumo. :-)

Edited January 1, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Fujisan 533]

Its gotta be Akebono for me,I barely noticed Marus presence until Akebono retired which must say something as large as Maru was/is.

[Jesinofuji 11]

Another vote for Akebono. Takamiyama was the first and his success should be well noted, but he was no Yokozuna. Then we are left with Ake and Maru, the Yokozuna, both very worthy of the rank. 12-11 in Yusho or not, I think Akebono was the better of the two. The Moose had alot of heya help. Ake was on his own. Ake always faced all of the best rikishi participating in every basho he participated in. Thats why I think Maru's one more yusho doesn't put him above Ake who generally fared better against the other rikishi.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Well explained and written opinions there Jesinofuji.

Whilst I voted for Maru - totally respect your views there.

However, think most missed the point of the initial question which had its backbone in -

"So, considering length of time at rank / level, championships won and win loss ratios who was the best of the (US) bunch for you.?"

Guess the Akebono popularity and 'fame' as the supposed first foreign (born) Yokozuna blinded :-D the facts on paper as a voter for Maru would turn to.

Akebono would always win on the popularity stakes but looking at the bigger picture I did think a few would look deeper into the question than the numbers suggest.

ANR (Enjoying a beer...)

[Tony 16]

Akebono! I completely agree with Jesinofuji! Akebono won 11 tournaments agaisnt an incredible opposition. Furthermore, he increased his style and sometimes develops, in his laters years, a good yotsu-zumo.

[Fujisan 533]

Wait a minute Adachi-

With respect,is this a poll or a quiz?

Yes we should consider all the points you mention in the introduction to the poll but in the end its still our personal opinion on the the question which is the deciding factor.

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

I also voted Akebono. I haven't seen someone equal to him in the pure "make your jaw drop" department. Wow.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

I also voted Akebono. I haven't seen someone equal to him in the pure "make your jaw drop" department. Wow.

Zapp? He may make Akebono's jaw drop or Akebono may make your jaw drop by tsukidashing Bob off the ring. Some jaws will drop somewhere at least. Whether in department store of other departments remains to be seen with eyes.

Akebono is clearly the best ever American in ozumo. Unbeatable in oshi/tsuki due to reach and power+skill and very strong in yotsu. Used to beat Takanohana many times in pure yotsu-bout even when letting Taka do his own sumo. Musashimaru was just immensely strong but not skillful. Akebono was everything. Also embassador of sumo and had *personality* factor high. Now he went to googoo land but lets forget that and think of Akebono before beard, athlete's aging crisis and K1.

[Fujisan 533]

To appease Adachi here are some facts in the Akebono-Musashimaru debate.

Yusho=Maru 12 Akebono 11

Years in Sumo=Maru 14 Akebono 13

Years as Yokozuna= Akebono 8 Maru 4

Tournament prizes=Akebono 6 Maru 4

Kinboshi=Akebono 4 Maru 0

Head to head=Akebono 24 Maru 17

Makes interesting reading-

Seems to me that Akebono having to retire a year earlier than Maru is the only reason for Marus slightly better Yusho results but thats just my opinion of course.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Makes interesting reading-

Seems to me that Akebono having to retire a year earlier than Maru is the only reason for Marus slightly better Yusho results but thats just my opinion of course.

But then again, Akebono started earlier as well, so that shouldn't really be held against Musashimaru.

[Zentoryu 154]

Another good comparison would be their mutual records against the "other" dominating rikishi of that era: Takanohana himself.

Akebono 21-21

Musashimaru 19-34

Akebono is clearly the best ever American in ozumo. Unbeatable in oshi/tsuki due to reach and power+skill and very strong in yotsu. Used to beat Takanohana many times in pure yotsu-bout even when letting Taka do his own sumo. Musashimaru was just immensely strong but not skillful.

I pretty much agree with this assessment as well.

Akebono was clearly the best rikishi in sumo during his last year, as his record during 2000 indicated. Had his knees not given out on him, there is no telling how many more yusho he could have won.

And no I'm not letting Akebono's popularity influence my vote. I'm letting what I saw with my own eyes influence me. (Punk rocker...)

Edited December 29, 2003 by Zentoryu

[Mark Buckton 1]

To appease Adachi here are some facts in the Akebono-Musashimaru debate.

Yusho=Maru 12 Akebono 11

Years in Sumo=Maru 14 Akebono 13

Years as Yokozuna= Akebono 8 Maru 4

Tournament prizes=Akebono 6 Maru 4

Kinboshi=Akebono 4 Maru 0

Head to head=Akebono 24 Maru 17

Makes interesting reading-

Seems to me that Akebono having to retire a year earlier than Maru is the only reason for Marus slightly better Yusho results but thats just my opinion of course.

Fujisan,

the facts above are unquestionable but, no disrespect intended do give a very blinkered view to the 'bigger picture'

MORE FACTS -

Career records - (Win / Lose / Absent)

Maru - 779 / 294 / 115

Akebono - 654 / 232 / 181 (Waving white flag...)

Winning matters - absenteeism and all the other prizes are secondary and absenteeism, whether genuine or to protect rank is a debate that could go on forever but 125! more victories against only 62 more losses speaks volumes for Maru (Punk rocker...) .

Makuuchi records

Maru - 706 / 267 / 115

Akebono - 566 / 198 / 181 (Waving white flag...)

Years at the top - 12 for Maru (Waving white flag...) - longer at about 12.5 for Akebono.

Technique prizes - Maru had 2 whist Akebono had zero. (Waving white flag...) (Waving white flag...)

Outstanding 4 for Akebono and 1 only for Maru (Waving white flag...)

Fighting Spirit 2 for Akebono and 1 for Maru (Waving white flag...)

Fujisan, I know you know your stuff but head to head means little when the word BEST means as regards the bigger picture.

You know as well as me that football (soccer) has many cases of head to head winners never achieving the continual and necessary continuity of performance / consistency of performance that the word 'best' credits. Liverpool are perhaps still the best team in English football over the past century and a bit but have done nothing since the early 90s - all MUFC. So, whilst MUFC have been more popular (out of sympathy perhaps for many) since Munich in Feb 58, who can argue that Liverpool have been the best overall - hard to say as a Mancunian MUFC fan. (Ranting...)

Back to sumo though, and, considering opposition, Maru had a far far far harder time than Akebono when he broke into the top division. Akebono wasn't even sanyaku when Asahifuji retired leaving a huge void. Sumo needed a new yokozuna and Akebono got it - easier perhaps than Maru who came into a 'crowded with talent' division (Waka / Taka / Ake etc) all vying for top spot.

Other aspects may have been forgotten such as the pressure of being first for which I apologise in advance but the facts above lie not and merely complete an initial smaller picture.

ANR

[Zentoryu 154]

Career records - (Win / Lose / Absent)

Maru - 779 / 294 / 115

Akebono - 654 / 232 / 181 (Waving white flag...)

Maru won 73% of his bouts.

Akebono won 73% of his bouts.

Is Maru better because he was absent less? That's the only real difference in their records.

Makuuchi records

Maru - 706 / 267 / 115

Akebono - 566 / 198 / 181

Edited December 30, 2003 by Zentoryu

[Fujisan 533]

Before I read your post Adachi believe me or not I was going to say that statistics can be shown to mean many different sides to the same argument and what you posted amply demonstrates that.

I wasn't trying to prove that Akebono was better than Maru,only that contrary to your previous post,most if not all those who voted for Akebono did not base it merely on his popularity but also his records in comparison to Marus aswell and you can find plenty of reasons for voting for Akebono there aswell.

Oh and thank you for saying I know my stuff but the truth is I extracted my facts from Chiyozakuras site,so I cant really take any credit.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Agree with you above Fujisan and guess our differing views are furthered by a mutual interest in theological debate (yours mentioned - mine not but currently focussed on the similarities / differences in Shintoism & Judaism).

Also, appreciate figures and of course use them myself but see differences of opinion and debate over it as one of the prime enjoyments of existence to be honest.

(Punk rocker...) Respect for your explaining your views irrecpective of whether ours differ or not. (Ranting...)

Till the next time. (Sign of approval)

ANR

PS - Zentoryu - thanks for the maths (failed at school myself) but on the absenteeism please keep watching - a question for the philosopers coming up.

[Fujisan 533]

Respect to you aswell Adachi-

The fact that you made a connect to the theological debate at all shows that you must have had some experience because no one outside of that issue would have made any.

Im sure we debate again one day,maybe not here but somewhere online.

[Jejima 1,415]

I voted 'other', with Sentoryu in mind. Not because he was the best wrestler of the Americans, but because of his dedication to the sport. Unlike other of the Americans who quit sumo when they didn't manage to make the big time on a regular basis (I'm talking about that big wave of Hawai'ians not included in the above poll), Sentoryu kept plugging away in the non-sekitori ranks, continuing to do tsukebito duty.

Remember Musashimaru only saw sumo as a 'well paid job', if he had not made it as a top division regular, he would have retired a long time ago. To lesser extentrs, I would say that this is true of the others named in the above list.

I was at the kokugikan on the day when Sentoryu got his 7th win (I hope my memory is not playing tricks on me here) in Upper Makushita that ensured that he would return to Juryo after a LONG absence - and eventually, after a few more basho he made it all the way to Makunouchi.

Sentoryu was very strong for his relatively small stature. He only knew one type of sumo - that is to coming blasting out of the tachiai. Other rikishi knew this, and so a lot would 'henka' him. This may say something about Sentoryu's lack of dohyo-savviness, but I admire him because he would always do his style of sumo - and come out at full pelt no matter what.

So here's to Sentoryu, 'best of the Americans!'

(Applauding...) (Laughing...) (Applauding...) (On cloud nine...) (Dancing of joy...) (Lifting weight...) (Beware of the blue one...)

Edited February 13, 2004 by Jejima

[aderechelsea 125]

Just take a look left...........

MUSHASHIMARUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

......Akebono was better when you think about it objectively but who cares?.................and he fought, that mockery of a fighter, Saap in K-1 ? ............pleeeeease :-D