Kosho in sumo games

[Kashunowaka 300]

Only minutes after the announcement that the kosho rule will be abolished, the discussion started on the Bench Sumo mailing list.

What do you think?

[Naifuzan 1]

I missed the option "sumo games are just for fun. So it doesn't matter to me" (Feeling guilty...)

[Kashunowaka 300]

I missed the option "sumo games are just for fun. So it doesn't matter to me"  (Feeling guilty...)

So which did you vote - "stupid poll" ...? (Blushing...)

Edit: It's not easy getting these polls right. Note to self: next time, include a "None of the above" option.

Edited September 26, 2003 by Kashunowaka

[Asashosakari 19,691]

I voted "no, because of excessive droning". Sure, sumo games are just meant to be fun, but part of the fun is getting to rise on a game's banzuke...if people didn't care about that, there probably wouldn't be any game banzukes in the first place. It's a simple matter of effort and reward. In many games it's already much more difficult to improve one's banzuke position than in real sumo (and usually also much easier to drop down), and changing things so that any untimely vacation or business trip ruins one's standings seems...well, counterproductive to the whole "fun" thing.

Besides, the same reason why I'm against the abolition of kosho in real sumo applies to sumo games, too...what's the point of dropping the best (cyber-)rikishi into the depths of Juryo or Makushita simply due to an unexpected injury/absence? That just seems to run contrary to the whole idea of having a banzuke reflect the skills of the rikishi/players.

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

I voted no... And I also say no to excessive back slashes in poll choices (Holiday feeling...)

[Zentoryu 154]

I've already made the decision to keep the kosho rule in place for RotoSumo.

I'm already pretty strict about Kosho as it is and there doesn't seem to be a problem with too many kosho in Roto anyway, so I don't see a need to change at this point.

Edited September 26, 2003 by Zentoryu

[Kashunowaka 300]

I voted no... And I also say no to excessive back slashes in poll choices ;-)

I don't know how this happened. (You are going off-topic...) Suddenly the backslashes appeared. Unfortunately one cannot preview poll choices.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

The apostrophes have that effect. I guess they're somehow used in the script itself for some nefarious purposes... (You are going off-topic...)

[Kashunowaka 300]

The apostrophes have that effect. I guess they're somehow used in the script itself for some nefarious purposes... ;-)

Don't beat about the bush. It's a bug, plain and simple. (You are going off-topic...)

It seems that every time that you preview a post containing a poll, a backslash character is added before certain characters in the poll choices. Workaround: after previewing, check the textarea with poll choices for extra backslashes and remove them. The extra backslashes don't appear after clicking "Add my Poll".

[Zenjimoto 40]

I am quite intrigued by the abolishment of KOSHO, and the impact it may or may not have on sumo games.

In many ways, if there is no kosho, it may make the sometimes impossible task of making a banzuke (depending on the results) easier, cause you'll have a few 0-0-15ers falling down and making much needed room for promotions. If you don't play, you don't get to keep your spot seems fair, as in most other games, if you miss a round, you miss the points you could've earned, and fall down the ranking as well (I mean, really... what other game allows people just to sit out a round and still be in the running? In that way, sumo is pretty unique). OTOH, it's a game in the real world, where people can't always play, and the whole "dedication to perform in games" stuff shouldn't be overdone.

I tend to think that, with pre-basho games perhaps the kosho could indeed be abolished. I mean, after all, people have about 2 weeks to make their entries from the time the banzuke comes out to shonichi. Plenty of time even for the most busy person, I think. OK, there will be the occasional holiday-goer, who is on a remote island for 4 weeks, but... generally it should be possible to do it in 2 weeks, no?

On the daily games, I think it would be reasonable that the games that HAVE some sort of auto-pick system can abolish KOSHO, cause even if you are gone for part or even all of the basho, you can still get something in, and hope for the occasional win. You may go 4-11, but its still better than 0-15. You might even do better. And perhaps you can play on some of the days anyways. So, do your best, as possible...

If there is no auto-pick provision (as in Sekitori-Toto at the moment, for example), it seems not fair to abolish KOSHO. Yes, you can ask a friend to pick for you, but it's not a very good solution.

In short, I think KOSHO will go for Sekitori-Oracle beginning in Hatsu, and for Sekitori-Toto if and when it gets an auto-pick function.

That said, please note that NONE of the Japanese games have KOSHO. If you miss a basho, you go 0-0-15, no matter what. Two Japanese players even complained to me about Sekitori-Toto and Oracle allowing KOSHO!! (You are going off-topic...) They all seem to think that part of competing means making the effort to compete when ever possible (such as part of the basho, if you can't play the whole time)... I tend to agree to a large extent. Let's see...

Cheers

Z.

Edited September 27, 2003 by Zenjimoto

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Workaround: after previewing, check the textarea with poll choices for extra backslashes and remove them. The extra backslashes don't appear after clicking "Add my Poll".

Ah, good to know. (Sign of approval)

[Asashosakari 19,691]

(I mean, really... what other game allows people just to sit out a round and still be in the running?

Since a better analogy would be missing a full tournament, not a single round (you already do get losses in sumo for missing single days), I'd say tennis qualifies. Sure, you don't get any points and other players may pass you by on the rankings, but they don't just get your spot handed to them because of your absence.

In that sense, I actually like what you're doing in Sekitoto/oracle by treating kosho as a 7-8, i.e. dropping a kosho player a few spots if their space is needed for promotions.

Edited September 28, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Fujisan 533]

It makes no difference to me,I have nothing that could stop me playing my favourite Games-But aboloshing the kosho rule is one dumb-assed idea and I give the games creators more credit than that.

[Zentoryu 154]

That said, please note that NONE of the Japanese games have KOSHO.  If you miss a basho, you go 0-0-15, no matter what.  Two Japanese players even complained to me about Sekitori-Toto and Oracle allowing KOSHO!! (Cheers...)  They all seem to think that part of competing means making the effort to compete when ever possible (such as part of the basho, if you can't play the whole time)...  I tend to agree to a large extent.  Let's see...

Cheers

Z.

The point of the matter, at least to me, is that we don't get paid to play sumo games. This is not our life. So why punish a player who's personal life intervenes in his sumo game playing? That just doesn't make any sense at all.

Personal life intervened for me this basho. I would have been REALLY pissed off if, when I came back, I realized that I had been demoted in Bench Sumo or Seki-Toto because of my forced abscence. I would have quit both games instantly if such a thing had happened. (Punk rocker...)

Don't talk to me about droning or automatic picks. I don't drone, I prefer to win or lose based on my own merits. I don't want my gaming fate decided by some automatic method over which I have no control. >(Applauding...)

The Kyokai is making a foolish mistake in real life by abolishing kosho. It would upset me to see the various sumogame Rijicho's making the same foolish mistake, all in the name of simulating reality. Mark my words, if you choose to abolish kosho, this will blow up in your faces. (Doing a wave...)

(note: I'm mainly refering to the daily games here. The ones which require a good deal of attention on the players part).

Edited September 28, 2003 by Zentoryu

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

That said, please note that NONE of the Japanese games have KOSHO.

[Kintamayama 45,564]

I agree that daily games should continue to offer kosho possibilities. As for pre-basho games, there is no reason on earth why a person can't find the time in a two-three week time frame to enter, barring forgetfulness, laziness, or in extremely rare cases, travel. It's a game, and a game is meant to be PLAYED. If I am not able to enter a game for three weeks, for some reason, be it the best reason in the world, I have only myself to blame, and not Kitanoumi. If it happened to me, I would ask to be demoted, out of sheer courtesy to my fellow players. I say abolish all kosho in all pre-basho games-there is no reason for it. It should have always been like that, regardless of Kitanoumi Rijicho. If we're talking fair here, it is GROSSLY unfair to whoever played, got a 9-6, and has nowhere to go because players ranked above him simply don't play. I don't buy it that a player can't find an hour (5 minutes, but whatever it takes..) to enter a guess, where in most cases he has to hit radio buttons. THIS pisses me off more than anything. As a former Banzuke maker, I've seen it happen too often and for no reason. I am referring to PRE-BASHO games only, I remind you..

Baaaaa!

[tominishiki 0]

I agree that daily games should continue to offer kosho possibilities. As for pre-basho games, there is no reason on earth why a person can't find the time in a two-three week time frame to enter, barring forgetfulness, laziness, or in extremely rare cases, travel. It's a game, and a game is meant to be PLAYED. If I am not able to enter a game for three weeks, for some reason, be it the best reason in the world, I have only myself to blame, and not Kitanoumi. If it happened to me, I would ask to be demoted, out of sheer courtesy to my fellow players. I say abolish all kosho in all pre-basho games-there is no reason for it. It should have always been like that, regardless of Kitanoumi Rijicho. If we're talking fair here, it is GROSSLY unfair to whoever played, got a 9-6, and has nowhere to go because players ranked above him simply don't play. I don't buy it that a player can't find an hour (5 minutes, but whatever it takes..) to enter a guess, where in most cases he has to hit radio buttons. THIS pisses me off more than anything. As a former Banzuke maker, I've seen it happen too often and for no reason. I am referring to PRE-BASHO games only, I remind you..

Baaaaa!

what a speech (Doing a wave...)

[Fujisan 533]

It can happen though Kinta,it very nearly did to me when I spent most of August and part of september in the outer hebrides,without a computer in sight-

I was lucky I got back with hours to spare,to enter my Bench sumo squad-

If I stayed one more day I would have been too late.

[Exil 301]

I voted for "No - sumo games are just for fun". That means a 'no' for daily games and a 'why, are people abusing it?' for pre-basho games.

As for pre-basho games, there is no reason on earth why a person can't find the time in a two-three week time frame to enter, barring forgetfulness, laziness, or in extremely rare cases, travel.

Am I the only person who waits for all the latest (kyujo) news before entering, making the real time frame more like 1-2 days? (Releasing bad air...)

If we're talking fair here, it is GROSSLY unfair to whoever played, got a 9-6, and has nowhere to go because  players ranked above him  simply don't play.

Good point. But is this a frequent phenomena?

I don't buy it that a player can't find an hour (5 minutes, but whatever it takes..) to enter a guess, where in most cases he has to hit radio buttons.

It nearly happened to me once, trying to enter Juryo Game with a non-standard browser... The buttons didn't do anything.

I've never missed a basho, but it's comforting to know I won't fall further down (if possible (Riding an ATV...)) if I do.

The apostrophes have that effect. I guess they're somehow used in the script itself for some nefarious purposes...

PHP uses both " and ' to quote strings so the script needs to escape (\') any single quotation marks. Preview poll has a bug, it'll probably get fixed in the next release.

[Doitsuyama 1,194]

Hmm, I'm in charge of the hoshitori game... what to do?... I say in my game a kosho every other basho doesn't hurt anyone, because there isn't a "real" banzuke in the hoshitori anyway. No one "steals" a rank here preventing others to climb upwards. So I say in this game it is the most convenient solution to let it be where it is.

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

So I say in this game it is the most convenient solution to let it be where it is.

This line of reasoning makes sense. Part of the reason for the NSK's rule change is their anger/disappointment of people taking advantage of the kosho status. Unless we have evidence that cyber rikishi are also repeatedly taking advantage of the cyber game kosho rules, why change the current setup?