first reactions to Asa's suspension

[sekihiryu 51]

ignoring all the petty squabbling in this thread so far.

Heres my two cents:

THe NSK did what they felt was just in the circumstances - that is their prerogative. I do thou think they have cut off their noses to spite their face by banning their "Michael Jordan" - their #1 star for 2 basho.

I for one have immediately lost some interest in the coming bashos -I like watching champions - not washed up has beens and wannabes, not matter how good their moral fibre may be.

Sad state of affairs all round.

It wouldnt surprise me if Asa up and left for good, the biggest loser wouldnt be him in that scenario.

Edited August 2, 2007 by sekihiryu

[Kotonosato 1]

how good their oral fibre may be.

Bit of a teeth fetish have we?

I was gonna say 'floss mania'.

[Saburo 18]

What were the odds of a forced retirement, ala Futahaguro.

Seriously, I talked about this story with a gal who thought Asa would get kicked out of sumo. I said nah no way. But I never expected a basho off, much less two.

I've been following sumo since that fateful year (1987) and this brought back all the shock of seeing the end of that particular four-yokozuna era in December of that year.

[Kotonosato 1]

What were the odds of a forced retirement, ala Futahaguro.

It wouldn't be without precedent. Add Maedayama to the Futahaguro pile of drummed-out yokozuna.

[Shimpu 0]

I think this is a massage for all foreigners and natives to keep within the law of the Kyokai. We've seen few incidents lately. Two basho long suspension seems a bit harsh though. One thing is clear Asa have to face the music. Asashoryu is one of the greatest and as Sekihiryu mentioned these two upcoming bashos will definitely lose a lot of flavour because of Asa's absence. Anyway there is no Asashoryu without Japan and Sumo. Sumo can exists without Asa though. He knows it.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Shimpu

[Fujisan 537]

Tough decision for Asashoryu. :-)

Tough decision for real Sumo fans. :-)

And for all those Japanese fans crying for a Japanese yokozuna its just not gonna happen when we have another Mongolian to collect the yushos (Laughing...)

Lets watch how quick Japan turns on Hakuho.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Fujisan

[Washuyama 662]

I've been kind of withholding judgement on this whole matter since it began. It's even made it on sportsillustrated.com which isn't usually known for printing sumo news.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/more...n.ap/index.html

As much as I like watching Asa's dominance in the ring, this is getting really out of hand... Regardless of the soccer match and the ensuing NSK punishment, right or wrong, Asashoryu's current actions are, for lack of a better word, stupid. He's done more to tarnish the title of Yokozuna than anyone ever has (including Futahaguro). Again, I like Asashoryu and love to watch his brand of sumo and wish we could back up a week... see him take the NSK punishment and rededicate himself to being the greatest sumotori ever (Which I believe he is capable of doing.)

I would like to see the NSK demand his retirement for bringing shame to the title of Yokozuna.... and SOON!!!

[Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj 0]

I would like to see the NSK demand his retirement for bringing shame to the title of Yokozuna.... and SOON!!!

Oh you feel ashamed for sumo and title of Yokozuna. How about wrongly accused and humilated human being who are in house arrest for nothing but playing charity soccer with kids. He was not weakest Yokozuna like Maedayama who was unable to win any further tournament. He was not playboy Yokozuna Kitanofuji who was connected with criminal yakuzas. He was not like Yokozuna Akebona who beat the waitress, vandalized the bar in Osaka in 2-28-96.

Asa did not become Yokozuna like Futahaguro without winning a basho and beat someone's wife....

Asa sees himself wrongfully accused. He is right. His situation is very understandable. It is difficult to handle with betrayal. People see him wrongfully accused and punished too,

[Washuyama 662]

Oh you feel ashamed for sumo and title of Yokozuna. How about wrongly accused and humilated human being who are in house arrest for nothing but playing charity soccer with kids. He was not weakest Yokozuna like Maedayama who was unable to win any further tournament. He was not playboy Yokozuna Kitanofuji who was connected with criminal yakuzas. He was not like Yokozuna Akebona who beat the waitress, vandalized the bar in Osaka in 2-28-96.

Asa did not become Yokozuna like Futahaguro without winning a basho and beat someone's wife....

Asa sees himself wrongfully accused. He is right. His situation is very understandable. It is difficult to handle with betrayal. People see him wrongfully accused and punished too,

I never took sides in the arguments so far because I felt there were rights and wrongs on both sides. My comment above has to do solely with his actions since the punishment. It has nothing to do with nationality, nothing to do with playing soccer with kids right or wrong. It has everything to do with a grown man who has reached the pinnacle of his profession, and reached that pinnacle quickly and definitively acting like a spoiled brat who's having a temper tantrum like a 2 year old.

I have no problem with your arguments for the above yokozuna.. Using one of your examples, Futahaguro, what was the repercussions of his act? His shisho submitted his intai. He was young also and very well could have been a great yokozuna.

To get back to Asa... I said above, I like him and love his sumo... Wish this never happened... Would have liked to see him break Taiho's yusho record, Chiyonofuji's wins record, and everyother record you can think of. He COULD have been the greatest ever... mentioned in the same breath as Raiden.

While Takasago holds alot of blame for putting the whole thing in the media, it does not excuse Asashoryu's reported antics.

[Celeborn 0]

Asashoryu's current actions are, for lack of a better word, stupid.

I wouldn't ask someone depressed doing wisely. I would find quite normal he stays home doing nothing he doesn't want to be interviewed. It has, as far as I'm concerned, nothing to do with yokozuna behaviour ; it's just normal psychological reactions due to depression (or semi-depression, or pre-depression, or whatever they call it). Let the media hype disappear a little, and I'm sure everything will go better.

[Jonosuke 28]

He was not weakest Yokozuna like Maedayama who was unable to win any further tournament. He was not playboy Yokozuna Kitanofuji who was connected with criminal yakuzas. He was not like Yokozuna Akebona who beat the waitress, vandalized the bar in Osaka in 2-28-96.

Asa did not become Yokozuna like Futahaguro without winning a basho and beat someone's wife....

I personnaly don't want to argue with you about this anymore but I want to set the records straight.　

I don't really care how much you want to defend your man but you cannot defend him by comparing him to other yokozuna because you simply have not enough facts about the other yokozuna you are spekaing of.

A certain yokozuna is weakest yokozuna or not pretty much depends on circumstances. When Maedayama was promoted to yokozuna, he already served 19 years as an active rikishi. He had several serious injuries in his life, one life threatening. He was also a Takasago oyakata without his bringing up yokozuna Asashio who was the shisho of the current Takasago oyakata, Asashoryu may never had a home in Ozumo.

As for Kitanofuji connected to organized criminals, he did receive some "gifts" from members of the group but there was no direct dealing with them like Kyokushuzan had recently. Regardless there is a well known episode about him. He performed a dohyo-iri for Tamanoumi who suddenly became ill at a Jyungyo tour, rushing in to do his after doing his own at another Jyungyo stop. As a result hee became the first yokozuna to perform both his own Unryu as well as Shiranui dohyo-iri. During his yeas as yokozuna he fulfilled his duty as a yokozuna like other yokozuna in the past.

Let me tell you about Akebono who served his yokozuna tenure with impeccable responsibility and dignity. When his mother passed away, he asked for a time out to go to her funeral in Hawaii.　The Kyokai gave him 48 hours and he returned in the allotted time as he knew in his heart, a yokozuna should take his responsiblity serisouly to uphold the dignity and traditions carried on since the dawn of Ozumo.

And about much maligned Futahaguro. About his hitting his shisho's wife and heya supporters club chairman, the only report that came about was from then Tatsunami oyakata who may had his own reason to rid Futahaguro. While it's true Futahaguro was never fond of workouts, did he beat up the shisho's wife or the chairman. There was no charge nor police report for the incident. He was accused of beating his tsukebito and other junior rikishi who escaped from the heya and Ozumo. Still his return to Ozumo as a special advisor to the current Tatsunami oyakata was made possible by Futahaguro's one time Tsukebito and curernt Kyokai Sewanin former Haguroumi. If Futahaguro had truly involved himself in some unsavory activities, the conservative Kyokai members would have never allowed him back in their fold.

There was all sorts of rumours about the former Tatsunami oyakata and his possible taking of the money received from Futahaguro's yokozuna promotion reception party. As well as there were reports of the oyakata's alleged monetary dealings with organized crime which may have forced the yokozuna out of the Ozumo as the Kyokai may have felt it could not have its yokozunat tainted in such a way. We do not know the true story as the principals are not talking about the past.

In the old days it's unimaginable to have a deshi going against his oyakata's advice regardless of his rank. The fact that Asashoryu has been given such leeway underscores more than anything else the current Takasago oyakata's lack of leadership. Despite being told numerous times to instruct strictly sumo manners to his deshi by Yokozuna Deliberation Committee, he has plainly failed to perform his duty. He knows it himseld as well as Kitanoumi oyakata that is the primary reason this has gone for so long.

When the oyakata lost the control of the shisho-deshi relationship to this extent, he can no longer command or invoke his leadership. This is as much about the failure of this oyakata fulfilling his duty and responsiblity as the yokozuna not fulfiling his.

[James H 0]

I thought Akebono's mother only died last year or at least well after he retired?

I think Joe meant Akebono's father. Based on Mark Panek's "Gaijin Yokozuna", that's what I know anyhow...

[Sasanishiki 57]

Hmmm, so many posts...

I was actually wondering today if the last couple of weeks have been like a really weird surreal dream. :-) I can't believe that this kind of furore is happening to a sport that I really love, especially as this sport is so small and almost endangered (compared to certain other sports that have scandals or the like).

Anyway, I'd like to look ahead and assume that Asashoryu recovers from his stress/anxiety/depression or whatever, and that he survives his 4 months of home detention, and that Takasago even manages to come out of this without having a nervous breakdown, or suffering a heart attack or stroke.

My question comes down to the future of the heya. Let's say that Takasago decides/has to leave the Kyokai early for whatever reason. Who takes over the heya? Touki? How would that work, with Asashoryu being practically his contemporary. If there is lack of guidance currently being levelled at Takasago, would it improve under a new oyakata?

On a related matter, would Asashoryu be accepted as an oyakata after this incident - that is, could he be seen to give good guidance to his deshi? Of course, if he has the kabu he can become an oyakata, but would he remain a pariah?

[Fay 1,677]

Just my two eurocent, although I didn't want to write in this topic - and can't write something new at all.

I'm getting quite tired of this all. There are two possibilities for Asa,

- saying "kiss my ass" (sorry) and retire

- clinch his teeth and sit out this time

He may feel that the punishment is not justified at all, but hey, nobody cares. There is no labour court who will help him (or maybe not).

What I can't understand is the pathetic in this case. I think a lot of us have gone through bigger crises than a 4 months suspension with the possibility to return.

If he really has a depression - and I can't believe this - I feel sorry for him, but then he would have got immediate treatment I guess.

Time to behave like a tough man or woman and not like a spoiled, obdurate child. He should know that this will take him to nowhere and nothing (ok,ok I know this too and I can behave in the same way, maybe he is just a s stupid as me :-) )

I really like him very much, I want him to take every record he can win, I am not bored at all when he wins every yusho, so finally Asa stand up, have your treatment, sweat at asageiko, teach the deshi in your heya and then return to the dohyo and be yourself again .... PLEASE!!!!!

[Washuyama 662]

There are two possibilities for Asa,

- saying "kiss my ass" and retire

- clinch his teeth and sit out his time

Time to behave like a tough man or woman and not like a spoiled, obdurate child.

I really like him very much, I want him to take every record he can win, I am not bored at all when he wins every yusho, so finally Asa stand up, have your treatment, sweat at asageiko, teach the deshi in your heya and then return to the dohyo and be yourself again .... PLEASE!!!!!

Well said.... :-)

[Guest haroda]

someone here needs to wake up and pay attention to the posts and news. the big deal isn't so much the soccer game. that was just the last straw. the big deal was leaving Japan without permission and pulling out of the Sumo tour. If his injuries were so bad that he couldn't go on the tour what was he doing playing soccer. The way I understand it he was invited by the soccer player he met on the flight. not by the government.

if you want to be a yokozuna you have to walk the walk. meaning go by the rules and customs and traditions. if he hasn't been able to learn things by now he doesn't deserve his yokozna rank. I wish they could bust him back to juryo and let him start over.

[Indrid 0]

As a sumo fan from Romania, all i can comment about is the lack of excitement that will characterize my interest for the next two bashos.

like many sumo fans, i was looking forward to the first time in many years that two Yokozuna battle it out for the cup. but now that is gone. Asashoryu is my favorite fighter, he has been so i think from the first time i saw him fight guys sometimes 100 kilos heavier than him and come out victorious. it is easy to have as favorite fighter the yokozuna, but he was my favorite fighter since he was at the bottom of the Makuuchi. maybe i have a soft spot for perceived underdogs ( i like Ama too).

i will also not comment about Japanese morals and honor codes and stuff like that because i am not familiar with it. as a sumo fan, i am fascinated by its archaic charm, totally unlike any other sport we can watch today. From what i have read here, i do not even know if the Japanese view it as a sport, or some sort of a ritualistic event.

all i can say is that i am sad, not angry or bitter or whatever, about the fact that i will not see Yokozuna Asashoryu for the next two tournaments. i can only hope he will return in 2008, as the Asashoryu we all love (i do think however that he is more loved outside Japan than inside japan, which is weird if you come to think about it).

[Joeblack 0]

someone here needs to wake up and pay attention to the posts and news. the big deal isn't so much the soccer game. that was just the last straw. the big deal was leaving Japan without permission and pulling out of the Sumo tour. If his injuries were so bad that he couldn't go on the tour what was he doing playing soccer. The way I understand it he was invited by the soccer player he met on the flight. not by the government.

if you want to be a yokozuna you have to walk the walk. meaning go by the rules and customs and traditions. if he hasn't been able to learn things by now he doesn't deserve his yokozna rank. I wish they could bust him back to juryo and let him start over.

1. I didn't see any rule that says a Yokozuna with elbow and back injuries cannot play soccer with little kids.

2. Wrestling is more strenuous than playing soccer.

3. Asa went to Mongol to seek treatment

4. Due to strenuous nature of sumo and the injuries, Asa could not attend the sumo tour.

5. Alleged "faking" injury claim is proven false. Hidetoshi Nakata, the soccer star, claimed that Asa shows signs of pain.

In conclusion, if Asa decides to play a soccer game with little kids in the neighborhood without media attention, nothing will happen. It will be treated as a loving father playing with his kids. This shows that it is indeed "the media attention" which resulted this tragedy. Asa has done nothing dishonorable.

I wish Asa would volunteer to give up the worthless Yokozuna title. Asa can win all those Yushos as an Ozeki. He can break the record without needing to set example for anybody.

[Kotonosato 1]

1. I didn't see any rule that says a Yokozuna with elbow and back injuries cannot play soccer with little kids.

Not the point as shown ad nauseum in threads above.

2. Wrestling is more strenuous than playing soccer.

Irrelevant. Asashoryu only had to stand beside the doyho on jungyo

3. Asa went to Mongol to seek treatment

Japan has world class medical facilities. Mongolia doesn't even come close. Asashoryu went to Mongolia not for medical attention. Soaking in a hot spring is hardly medicine and even if it were Japan again has better ones.

4. Due to strenuous nature of sumo and the injuries, Asa could not attend the sumo tour.

No. due to skipping out on his responsibilities to have the craic in Mongolia Asa could not attend the sumo tour

5. Alleged "faking" injury claim is proven false. Hidetoshi Nakata, the soccer star, claimed that Asa shows signs of pain.

Alleged "soccer star" Hidetoshi Nakata is not a doctor and is only trying to cover his own arse in relation to the affair. Whether he knows less about sumo or medicine is the only debatable point.

Good try at reponding to that post, Nishi. But after 500 posts, I don't think JoeBlack's ever gonna get it.

[Afrozuna 8]

someone here needs to wake up and pay attention to the posts and news. the big deal isn't so much the soccer game. that was just the last straw. the big deal was leaving Japan without permission and pulling out of the Sumo tour. If his injuries were so bad that he couldn't go on the tour what was he doing playing soccer. The way I understand it he was invited by the soccer player he met on the flight. not by the government.

if you want to be a yokozuna you have to walk the walk. meaning go by the rules and customs and traditions. if he hasn't been able to learn things by now he doesn't deserve his yokozna rank. I wish they could bust him back to juryo and let him start over.

1. I didn't see any rule that says a Yokozuna with elbow and back injuries cannot play soccer with little kids.

2. Wrestling is more strenuous than playing soccer.

3. Asa went to Mongol to seek treatment

4. Due to strenuous nature of sumo and the injuries, Asa could not attend the sumo tour.

5. Alleged "faking" injury claim is proven false. Hidetoshi Nakata, the soccer star, claimed that Asa shows signs of pain.

In conclusion, if Asa decides to play a soccer game with little kids in the neighborhood without media attention, nothing will happen. It will be treated as a loving father playing with his kids. This shows that it is indeed "the media attention" which resulted this tragedy. Asa has done nothing dishonorable.

I wish Asa would volunteer to give up the worthless Yokozuna title. Asa can win all those Yushos as an Ozeki. He can break the record without needing to set example for anybody.

The person who really "opened my eyes" was the guy who explained from the perspective of all the fans who buy tickets for the Jungyo tour expecting to see the Yokozuna only to hear he is sick but turn up playing soccer in Mongolia. I would also feel pissed especially if the main reason I was going to the Jungyo was because I'm a huge fan of Asa.

I think Kyokai would not have been as displeased if Asa had played soccer at the jungyo tour than not pitch up at all and then be seen running around playing soccer somewhere else. He did not have to do anything too strenuous (no sumo, no dyoho-iri) at the Jungyo Tour as he had already submitted his sick note. All he had to do was show up for the people to see.

All in all I also feel this thread has run its course as most forum members are now reiterating what they have already said before in the thread.

I really hope to see Chiyotaikai bring his best oshi sumo and getting lotm of oshi dashi wins and maybe even lift the Emperor's Cup. I have just watched a Kyushu Basho 2003 match between him and Kaio although he lost it was a really deserved win for Kaio. It would really be great to have another potent oshi rikishi in makuuchi since the wane of Miyabiyama and Taikai not getting any younger.

Since the yokozuna is out of action I really want either Kaio or Taikai to win as I feel it will add a lot more excitement in the world of Ozumo.

I take it Hakuho will be at Y1E this upcoming basho and Asa will not appear on the banzuke at all. Am i right?

Edited August 18, 2007 by maegashira-yusho

[Kintamayama 47,360]

I wish Asa would volunteer to give up the worthless Yokozuna title. Asa can win all those Yushos as an Ozeki. He can break the record without needing to set example for anybody.

This sentence says it all about your profound or even fleeting understanding of Sumo. It's like saying you wish the team that comes in last in the Major Leagues or the NBA will be relegated and then win all the pennants.

[Kintamayama 47,360]

Good post Maegashira-yusho :-)

I second that wholeheartedly.

[Joeblack 0]

1. I didn't see any rule that says a Yokozuna with elbow and back injuries cannot play soccer with little kids.

Not the point as shown ad nauseum in threads above.

Playing soccer is indeed the point. If Asashoryu was caught running solely, I don't think anyone would have doubt about his injured status.

2. Wrestling is more strenuous than playing soccer.

Irrelevant. Asashoryu only had to stand beside the doyho on jungyo

3. Asa went to Mongol to seek treatment

Japan has world class medical facilities. Mongolia doesn't even come close. Asashoryu went to Mongolia not for medical attention. Soaking in a hot spring is hardly medicine and even if it were Japan again has better ones.

Relevent. Asashoryu was seeking treatment. That is why he was not able to stand beside the doyho on jungyo. Perhaps Asashoryu wants alternative treatment and no world class medical facilities in Japan can provide one. Treatment involve in spiritual, emotional support cannot be obtain in Japan. Physical injuries can be healed in Japan, but emotional one cannot. Asashoryu has emotional problem, as we can see now. However, he cannot show his emotion as a Yokozuna nor can tell the world of his problem. That is why he seeks to go to Mongol. Perhaps, seeing family members help him alleviate the symptom of depression. I even think that Asashoryu has long history of depression. He just won't come out and say it because it will make him appear weak.

You know "serving" as a Yokozuna is full time job. I doubt many understand the pressure Asashoryu has to face. One has to live in a strict routine and rules everyday for no particular reasons but tradition. Asashoryu is outgoing person who has chronic depression whenever he is restricted. I doubt anyone of you live in such a restricted life and actually enjoy it. I am pretty sure Asashoryu loves sumo but dislike Bushindo, but there is no Yokozuna rank that doesn't have Bushindo requirement. The requirements are just inhumane. Ironically, the sentence is even more inhumane. That is why we see Asashoryu the way he is now.

4. Due to strenuous nature of sumo and the injuries, Asa could not attend the sumo tour.

No. due to skipping out on his responsibilities to have the craic in Mongolia Asa could not attend the sumo tour

A worker can have sick day leave ESPECIALLY if he is injured on a job. He doesn't have the responsibility to entertain you audience when he is injured. Please don't lecture about Japanese responsibility and self sacrifice.

5. Alleged "faking" injury claim is proven false. Hidetoshi Nakata, the soccer star, claimed that Asa shows signs of pain.

Alleged "soccer star" Hidetoshi Nakata is not a doctor and is only trying to cover his own arse in relation to the affair. Whether he knows less about sumo or medicine is the only debatable point.

Well, you are not a doctor neither. Hidetoshi Nakata saw Asashoryu agasping in pain while you have not seen it. A normal being knows when one is in pain when he sees it. Perhaps Asashoryu should intentionally display his elbow and back pain in front of camera, so none of you will question his honor.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Joeblack

[Guest haroda]

Question his honor??? he has no honor left to question.

only the shame he has brought to yokozuna rank is left for him.

[Kintamayama 47,360]

Asashoryu has emotional problem, as we can see now. However, he cannot show his emotion as a Yokozuna nor can tell the world of his problem. That is why he seeks to go to Mongol. Perhaps, seeing family members help him alleviate the symptom of depression. I even think that Asashoryu has long history of depression. He just won't come out and say it because it will make him appear weak.

What episode of Star Trek is that one from? You are saying that Asa has actually been totally kookoo all this time? Are you for real?

Asashoryu is outgoing person who has chronic depression whenever he is restricted. I doubt anyone of you live in such a restricted life and actually enjoy it. I am pretty sure Asashoryu loves sumo but dislike Bushindo, but there is no Yokozuna rank that doesn't have Bushindo requirement. The requirements are just inhumane. Ironically, the sentence is even more inhumane. That is why we see Asashoryu the way he is now.

Are you a doctor? In what field? Or are you Asa's close friend? Do you know a friend of a friend of a friend of his? How the heck can you know this? And what is BUSHINDO?? And if he so hates this bushindo, why hasn't he left the cruel world of Sumo for some other martial arts thingy where he could make much, much more money? Or maybe the Kyokai has been holding him prisoner and brainwashing him boogy boogy boogy?

A worker can have sick day leave ESPECIALLY if he is injured on a job. He doesn't have the responsibility to entertain you audience when he is injured. Please don't lecture about Japanese responsibility and self sacrifice.

Anywhere in the world, when a worker gets sick leave, he doesn't go to the neighbor's office to play mahjong. He goes home or to the hospital. If his boss catcheth him at the cinema, he sends him home for good, not for a month. And he taketh away the car too.

Wow. Wow. Wow. Joeblack. I am dumbfounded.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Kintamayama