Kyushu 2025 discussion (results)

[RabidJohn 2,078]

15 minutes ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

And if I recall, isn't the dead body rule only supposed to apply when one of the rikishi is falling onto/over the other?  

No, it applies when one of the rikishi is in an unrecoverable position, like going backwards in the air with no chance of landing back inside the tawara.

Aonishiki would have been much better off not jumping at all. He seems to be a quick learner, so I don't expect he'll make that mistake again.

[Sumo Spiffy 671]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Aonishiki would have been much better off not jumping at all. He seems to be a quick learner, so I don't expect he'll make that mistake again.

If he hadn't jumped, he might not have any knees left. He made a nice throw attempt, but his options were either jump away or get landed on by Onosato's entire upper body. Survival instinct takes over there. 

Watching it again in slow-mo, that also starts looking like why they may not have bothered with a mono-ii. We can go over the fine details of what should count as being down first, but at full speed, it looks like Aonishiki fails a throw, gets shoved out, and makes the touch look questionable by jumping. All of that points towards Onosato being the winner. I'm not saying it wasn't close enough to warrant a mono-ii, but I do think Aonishiki and his coach have the right idea—it's going to be better long-term to find ways not to end up in that position rather than be grumpy about not getting the call or a review.

And yeah, the JSA wouldn't like dissent. I know that, you know that, they know that. I'm saying it doesn't matter. Even if the JSA didn't give a shit, accepting the call, and more importantly the fact these types of calls are not going to go their way very often if Aonishiki's always the one flying backwards, is a smarter approach. 

[apraxin 57]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

No, it applies when one of the rikishi is in an unrecoverable position, like going backwards in the air with no chance of landing back inside the tawara.

I feel a bit silly asking this given how long as I've been watching sumo, but has this always been the shinitai interpretation or has it only come into vogue more recently? 

I could almost swear that back in the Asashoryu/Hakuho era it was only applied to cases where, say, someone had been involuntarily flipped by their opponent and was moving through the air without control of their body, but happened to touch down/out second, and that a proactive jump along the lines of what Aonishiki did here would be considered a deliberate if last-ditch action to ensure his opponent touched down first, and so it wouldn't matter whether his feet ultimately landed inside or outside the tawara.

Am I just getting senile? 

Edited 3 hours ago by apraxin

[Bunbukuchagama 996]

[Reonito 1,799]

1 hour ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I'm not saying it wasn't close enough to warrant a mono-ii, but I do think Aonishiki and his coach have the right idea—it's going to be better long-term to find ways not to end up in that position rather than be grumpy about not getting the call or a review.

I mean, and see the pic immediately above, you can both acknowledge that you had to rely on a high-risk move that won't work very often AND be grumpy that you didn't get the call on this occasion when it arguably did work. The latter doesn't preclude continuing to work on a better strategy going forward.

[Sakura 1,526]

39 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Circling the feet doesn't change the fact that they don't seem to call the top of the foot touching down as a loss (I remember just one instance of it and it caused a stir on the forum). It may be a rule on paper, but it's not a rule in practice. It's like having a law still on the books (such as all adult men being required to practice archery) that isn't enforced. Officially still the law, but clearly not the law in the way it is not-enforced.

[Bunbukuchagama 996]

2 minutes ago, Sakura said:

Circling the feet doesn't change the fact that they don't seem to call the top of the foot touching down as a loss (I remember just one instance of it and it caused a stir on the forum). It may be a rule on paper, but it's not a rule in practice. It's like having a law still on the books (such as all adult men being required to practice archery) that isn't enforced. Officially still the law, but clearly not the law in the way it is not-enforced.

Apart from the wrong side of the foot: whose position seems more unrecoverable at this moment?

[Sakura 1,526]

1 minute ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Apart from the wrong side of the foot: whose position seems more unrecoverable at this moment?

The first screen shot shown, with Aonishiki flying out of the ring, had me thinking 'what's all the commotion, Aonishiki clearly lost'. So, there is some danger in just posting screenshots. As far as the one you posted it seems clear to me that Aonishiki is not in a stable position (neither is Onosato). Given that, I don't think 'more unrecoverable' is a deciding factor - it's about what happens next.

[Bunbukuchagama 996]

Just now, Sakura said:

The first screen shot shown, with Aonishiki flying out of the ring, had me thinking 'what's all the commotion, Aonishiki clearly lost'. So, there is some danger in just posting screenshots. As far as the one you posted it seems clear to me that Aonishiki is not in a stable position (neither is Onosato). Given that, I don't think 'more unrecoverable' is a deciding factor - it's about what happens next.

This is why I dislike the whole "dead body" thing so much: every desperate last falling oshidashi push, every step-back hatakikomi at the edge, and almost every throw ends up in the rikishi attempting it falling on the floor or stepping outside the dohyo; essentially, their position becomes unrecoverable the moment they go for that move, it's all or nothing at that point. They are awarded the win only because their opponent falls or steps out first - or is deemed "dead" before they become dead themselves, which is a very subjective call. 

In this particular case, we would need to conduct frame by frame analysis trying to determine when exactly one of them becomes "dead"; instead of doing so, the shimpan just said "screw it" and kept sitting down. 

[Tochinofuji 405]

4 hours ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

... 
And if I recall, isn't the dead body rule only supposed to apply when one of the rikishi is falling onto/over the other?  
... 

You might be thinking of the kabai-te (庇い手) element of the dead body rule, where if the "live" wrestler touches a hand down first to prevent injury to the "dead" wrestler (assumably by falling onto them), they are still declared the victor. Or at least that is my mediocre understanding of the rules! 

[Yamanashi 4,088]

Onosato vs Aonishiki: I have no problem with the call (although the flipped toe thing was difficult to ignore).  I mean, how would it look to see Aonishiki completely airborne outside the dohyo and then decree: "Onosato lost because he touched down first"?