Steroids in sumo - ONE man has it figured out

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

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Igordemorais, regarding the interview you posted, please include a link to articles you make quotes from. Thanks.

[Igordemorais 79]

Here's an interview with Angel Heredia, the red parts are outlined by me. I believe this should pretty much settle the issue, added to what we've already discussed.

Oh yes, thanks for quoting that, now everything seems settled indeed after reading a former drug dealer justifying his actions by telling the world everyone does drugs, needs to do drugs and it is nevertheless still a great achievement to make it to the top in any kind of sports.

Not quite, but it does add consistent anecdotal evidence to the extremely damning circumstances that we discussed earlier. Nothing short of steroid testing will give definitive evidence, but that does not mean we should be blind to what's happening.

Once again: I'm done some fights, I know athletes from several sports, some low, some mid and some high level. Mostly combative sports. And PEDs are a constant.

Americans see steroids as drugs, you go to jail for that. The rest of the world..... it's cheating, but it's not cocaine, and it's certainly not something you should go to jail for. Perhaps this is what warps your perspective on the issue towards what I consider a naive and unrealistic understanding of the physical requirements of top-level combat sports.

And here is the link to the original inerview:

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/a-571031.html

Edited August 15, 2012 by Igordemorais

[Shokaku 13]

I would guess that steroid usage gets more likely as higher you go in rankings. Probably a lot more likely in Makuuchi on average, then in Makushita or Jonidan. Average low ranked newbie probably knows nothing about steroids and has no connections that would be ready to provide them.

[Igordemorais 79]

Maybe. On the other hand, in fighting gyms all over the world guys start roiding not soon after they start training. They are in a hurry to get to the top.

Once again, don't think that androgenic anabolic steroids are the only performance enhancers out there.

If I was going to participate in sumo, for instance, I would at the very least be on creatine monohydrate ( legal and good for you). But come fight day little Hiroshi or whatever might want to pop in anything from anxyolitics to deal with the nervousness to good old stimulants such as ephedrine in order to get that boost.

There's a whole wealth of shit you can put into your body for all sorts of results, some of it legal (caffeine), some of it prescribed ( steroids, stimulants, anxyolitics, antidepressants, cortisone shots) and some flat out illegal ( cocaine, marijuana, ephedrine).

When a kid goes into sumo my first guess is he'd immediately start looking for an edge. Nobody likes to be the class runt. It might not be in steroids either. Mostly it's in ignoring basics and focusing on learning little tricks which work on lower-to-intermediate level fighters.

For newbies, it's the short road, for advanced, by all accounts it seems to me nothing short of a necessity.

[Dr.Radical 16]

Just my two cents on the whole thing: I guess you can't really say people are on steroids definitively as there's a lack of evidence. I mean I've noticed that a lot of rikishi have bad acne on the face and body, which is a side effect of steroids, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're on roids. Along with that, I'm not really sure why some people assume that oyakata would never allow it. To think that every oyakata is a shining example of honorableness and tradition seems kind of naive to me. You also have that rikishi apparently aren't tested for any kind of drugs. If I remember correctly, the only reason why those wrestlers were caught using marijuana was because one of them left their wallet at a club which had a joint in it. The only way to find out if anyone is on steroids is to test them and even that, according to what Igordemorias is saying, wouldn't always catch people if they're cycling on and off the steroids. The only solution to that might be to randomly test people instead of on a schedule so they don't know when they'll be tested. So basically what I'm saying is..... who knows!

[Kintamayama 47,412]

If I remember correctly, the only reason why those wrestlers were caught using marijuana was because one of them left their wallet at a club which had a joint in it.

One of them, yes, he dropped his wallet in the street and a good citizen delivered it to the nearest police station.The other two Russians were caught during a drug test. Yes, they did have one a few years ago, formed a committee to oversee the tests, but since then-nothing.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Kintamayama

[Igordemorais 79]

Just my two cents on the whole thing: I guess you can't really say people are on steroids definitively as there's a lack of evidence. I mean I've noticed that a lot of rikishi have bad acne on the face and body, which is a side effect of steroids, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're on roids. Along with that, I'm not really sure why some people assume that oyakata would never allow it. To think that every oyakata is a shining example of honorableness and tradition seems kind of naive to me. You also have that rikishi apparently aren't tested for any kind of drugs. If I remember correctly, the only reason why those wrestlers were caught using marijuana was because one of them left their wallet at a club which had a joint in it. The only way to find out if anyone is on steroids is to test them and even that, according to what Igordemorias is saying, wouldn't always catch people if they're cycling on and off the steroids. The only solution to that might be to randomly test people instead of on a schedule so they don't know when they'll be tested. So basically what I'm saying is..... who knows!

Yeah, but why would the Kyokai test the athletes? If they were all fighters at some point they must have needed it at some point. I can not IMAGINE Sumo as it is today without the availability of steroids, cortisone, stimulants and painkillers. The way this sport is scheduled is the craziest thing I've ever seen.

[Dr.Radical 16]

You're right, they don't really have a reason to do that unless someone were to speak out with allegations of steroid use. Politics is, unfortunately, a big part of all professional sports. I think we just have to sit back and enjoy sumo for what it is, steroids or not. I agree with rooting out the yaocho business, though. Match fixing for me takes away a lot more from the sport than steroid use.

[Igordemorais 79]

I got zero problem with these gentlemen using performance enhancing drugs as long as it is done correctly. Anyone who says they're concerned about their health should be sending letters to the Kyokai about scheduling tournaments less than two months apart, having them run for 2 weeks, and making it so that going kyujo ruins your ranking. A 150kg athlete of combat sports with no down time is an orthopedic surgeon's dream come true. "There`s my mortgage." I mean literally, I introduced the sport to such guy when he was visiting me. He couldn't get past the amount of tape they use to support their joints which clearly indicate some sort of injury.

[Mark.Buckton 68]

Igor, throughout you apply western mentalities regarding sport to sumo. This is incorrect and will not work on so many levels.

BTW - WADA and WHO both recommended against creatine use around 5 years ago. WADA I was in touch with personally on this and it is being worked into their testing in the not too distant future I understand.

It is not 'good for you' as you claim.

[Igordemorais 79]

Creatine is the single most researched sport supplement in the world and overwhelming evidence points towards it being at worst harmless, at best beneficial to sports performance.

Since links are used here, here's one ( check the end for research references):

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/creatine-000297.htm

And here's another, this one the Mayo Clinic:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/creatine/NS_patient-creatine/DSECTION=evidence

Now, if instead of condescending with the argument that "I'm looking at sumo the incorrect way with a western mentality" and dismissing the issue further, why don't you go ahead and tell me exactly what the correct eastern perspective is, and how the issues I address here fail to apply to the sport of Sumo.

Otherwise, you're about as useful to the discussion as... well... nothing.

[Mark.Buckton 68]

Creatine ......... overwhelming evidence points towards it being at worst harmless,

Now, if instead of condescending with the argument that "I'm looking at sumo the incorrect way with a western mentality" and dismissing the issue further, why don't you go ahead and tell me exactly what the correct eastern perspective is, and how the issues I address here fail to apply to the sport of Sumo.

to answer point one there is a world of difference between something being 'good for you' as you originally claimed, and now 'at worst harmless'.

With your second point, and to answer in just a few words - you assume that all sport is about winning and winning only.

That is not a 'uniquely' eastern concept but it is one that applies to sumo / drugs / your take that all rikishi would take/have taken the dirty route to victory.

I do not believe use of steroids / other performance enhancers is widespread. I have not and never will be a professional rikishi so there will always be areas 'off limits' of course, but I have known a few rikishi for some years, have been plastered with a few, and have spoken off the record with many active and retired rikishi.

Drug use and steroid abuse has come up in conversation as has yaocho etc, and whilst I will not here name names, I have never once heard of steroids being used in a non-medical manner - even from individuals retired with an open and clear grudge against others....nothing.

Does this mean that I can say nobody uses steroids? Of course not, but I would think if there were steroids around it were an imported problem rather than a domestic issue.

So, perhaps rather than claiming I add nothing, you could 'prove' your claims rather than judge based on what you think happens but again, please revert back to sumo for many not only being about winning for winning's sake.

And, perhaps you should address creatine use to Nishinoshima on this board as he was an active user of this product some years ago whilst participating in amateur sumo. His experience and awareness of creatine use related to sumo would perhaps be a better indicator of good/bad/ugly that your assumptions.

[Igordemorais 79]

Creatine ......... overwhelming evidence points towards it being at worst harmless,

Now, if instead of condescending with the argument that "I'm looking at sumo the incorrect way with a western mentality" and dismissing the issue further, why don't you go ahead and tell me exactly what the correct eastern perspective is, and how the issues I address here fail to apply to the sport of Sumo.

to answer point one there is a world of difference between something being 'good for you' as you originally claimed, and now 'at worst harmless'.

With your second point, and to answer in just a few words - you assume that all sport is about winning and winning only.

That is not a 'uniquely' eastern concept but it is one that applies to sumo / drugs / your take that all rikishi would take/have taken the dirty route to victory.

I do not believe use of steroids / other performance enhancers is widespread. I have not and never will be a professional rikishi so there will always be areas 'off limits' of course, but I have known a few rikishi for some years, have been plastered with a few, and have spoken off the record with many active and retired rikishi.

Drug use and steroid abuse has come up in conversation as has yaocho etc, and whilst I will not here name names, I have never once heard of steroids being used in a non-medical manner - even from individuals retired with an open and clear grudge against others....nothing.

Does this mean that I can say nobody uses steroids? Of course not, but I would think if there were steroids around it were an imported problem rather than a domestic issue.

So, perhaps rather than claiming I add nothing, you could 'prove' your claims rather than judge based on what you think happens but again, please revert back to sumo for many not only being about winning for winning's sake.

And, perhaps you should address creatine use to Nishinoshima on this board as he was an active user of this product some years ago whilst participating in amateur sumo. His experience and awareness of creatine use related to sumo would perhaps be a better indicator of good/bad/ugly that your assumptions.

I do not assume anything. As a martial artist, my mentality is quite the opposite. As for the gentlemen you spoke to, few people if any are willing to admit that they have used steroids. I do not see them as a "dirty" road unless rules exist against them, unlike retrograde ignorant people such as yourself.

As for the competitive aspect of sumo, you are talking about sumo, where cheating was so widespread it was actually so statistically evident as to not allow for any rebuttal. Please, spare me the honky spiritual shenanigans.

I do not claim to have any evidence towards steroid use in sumo aside from the documented one , such as Takanoyama's insulin shots. Nor did I claim to hold the absolute truth. I believe steroids are used in sumo , particularly in the top level, such as they are in almost every other sport and I believe that the factors in this sport are particularly favorable. I've said this again and again.

Creatine monohydrate is the single most used sports supplement in the world, used by tens of millions of people including myself. And since I a actively work out, train in boxing, wrestling and brazilian jiu jitsu I am very aware of its benefits. And they are several. With no shortcomings.

Talk about what you know, what you actually know.

[Morty 1,519]

Interestingly this discussion started with the claim that Hakuho and Harumafuji were on the gas, particularly Hakuho when he was a teenager and it was this reason why he put on so much weight in a short period of time. However, this is what Wikipedia says about steroid use by adolescents:

"A number of severe side-effects can occur if adolescents use anabolic steroids. For example, the steroids may prematurely stop the lengthening of bones (premature epiphyseal fusion through increased levels of estrogen metabolites), resulting in stunted growth. Other effects include, but are not limited to, accelerated bone maturation, increased frequency and duration of erections, and premature sexual development. Anabolic steroid use in adolescence is also correlated with poorer attitudes related to health.^[53"]"

Personally I find the concept that PED use is harmless to the health of the users to be slightly ridiculous. The high number of known steroid users who have died young from a range of maladies is striking. The list of side effects for steroid use on Wiki is significant, as it is for other PEDs such as EPO. Well known cyclists such as Marco Pantani (Tour de France winner) used EPO and other PEDs under the supervision of shonky doctors and still died before the age of 40 from side effects. If using these things under the supervision of a doctor kills you, using them under the supervision of your mate in the gym named Dave is probably even more risky. The list of Pro Wrestlers who have died under the age of 60 runs to about five pages.

So, maybe one reason for not using PEDs is because people don't want to die of heart attacks before the age of 40, or have their testicles shrink etc.

[Igordemorais 79]

Interestingly this discussion started with the claim that Hakuho and Harumafuji were on the gas, particularly Hakuho when he was a teenager and it was this reason why he put on so much weight in a short period of time. However, this is what Wikipedia says about steroid use by adolescents:

"A number of severe side-effects can occur if adolescents use anabolic steroids. For example, the steroids may prematurely stop the lengthening of bones (premature epiphyseal fusion through increased levels of estrogen metabolites), resulting in stunted growth. Other effects include, but are not limited to, accelerated bone maturation, increased frequency and duration of erections, and premature sexual development. Anabolic steroid use in adolescence is also correlated with poorer attitudes related to health.^[53"]"

Personally I find the concept that PED use is harmless to the health of the users to be slightly ridiculous. The high number of known steroid users who have died young from a range of maladies is striking. The list of side effects for steroid use on Wiki is significant, as it is for other PEDs such as EPO. Well known cyclists such as Marco Pantani (Tour de France winner) used EPO and other PEDs under the supervision of shonky doctors and still died before the age of 40 from side effects. If using these things under the supervision of a doctor kills you, using them under the supervision of your mate in the gym named Dave is probably even more risky. The list of Pro Wrestlers who have died under the age of 60 runs to about five pages.

So, maybe one reason for not using PEDs is because people don't want to die of heart attacks before the age of 40, or have their testicles shrink etc.

This is great information, allow me to add to some of the things you posted. It is important to add that no pharmacological interference is without cost, and even aspirin kills. A lot. There is a cost-benefit relationship that you have to analyze on everything you put in your body, from your coffee to your burgers to your cough syrup to your chemotherapy all the way to androgenic anabolic steroids.

Adolescents should never use anabolic steroids. Flat out, absolutely, positively never. Not a shot, not a pill , not a chance, not ever. A normal teenager's body is already raging with hormones and going through drastic change. Steroids are not only redundant, they will imbalance your development in unpredictable but certainly harmful ways.

However, it does depend on who is using it and at what stage of their development, as well as how their body will respond. There are far too many variables to predict the outcome. On Hakuho's case, he is a very large man with gifted weight and mass gain genetics. I do not doubt fot a second that he can naturally have gained all that weight in one year, especially if it was as a teenager and in the beginning of his training.

As for pro-wrestlers, they are a very very special case. Pro-wrestling is, simply put, hell on your body. Those men perform 50 weeks a year, plus training and rehearsing, in a high pressure environment with a lot of dangerous stunts and physical contact. Add to the absurd wear-and-tear of this profession, they are also required to look in excellent shape due to the image associated with the sport.

The result is that, very much like in sumo, both in terms of recovery and in body mass there is a demand on your body that a normal person simply can not tolerate. As a matter of fact, screw sumo, pro-wrestling is unreasonable by any standard. These men don`t do weight-gain and fat-loss cycles. They are on the juice 24/7, always getting banged up and always on recovery, always needing to look good. They suffer countless concussions. When Chris Benoit went nuts, killed his family and then himself, his brain was already tapioca from all the hits he had taken.

It is a fallacy to attribute this to the PEDs by themselves, since there are many bodybuilders from the 70s who are alive today and in reasonably good shape. Frank Zane, Ed Corney, Lou Ferrigno. And those gentlemen did not even do post-cycle therapies, they just popped in those dianabols like they were M&Ms.

Testicle shrinking occurs when someone uses steroids, but there are other forms of PEDs which have no such side-effect. Interestingly enough, there are also mental PEDs, such as cocaine ( Freud and Sherlock Holmes couldn't do without, there's some fact and some fiction for you) as well as Ritalin, Adderal, and the ever-popular ECA stack.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Igordemorais

[Morty 1,519]

Fair enough, I agree, as someone who has followed Pro Wrestling for 30 years, it's the lifestyle as much as the drugs that do them in. Misawa taking all those head and neck drops are what killed him, rather than the drugs. Likewise, the multiple chair shots and the flying head-butts are what sent Benoit crazy. However, drug use, both steroids and recreational, contributed to the early death of a number of those guys. And to the premature deaths of athletes like Flo-Jo and Marco Pantani.

But to take this back to the beginning, this didn't start as a discussion about the effects of PEDs. It started as a claim that rikishi (specifically Hakuho and Harumafuji) used steroids and that's why they ended up as one and two in the last basho. Despite the last three pages of discussion no-one yet has managed to post any evidence that either of them, or most other rikishi, are on the gas. I would suggest this discussion is redundant without new evidence. We each have our own opinions which we have enunciated pretty fully. But until I see some evidence I'm going to maintain that Harumafuji won that last basho without chemical assistance, and Hakuho gained all that weight because he ate and drank a lot. And that he wins consistently because he is a supremely talented, world class athlete. If they're all on the gas he's still better than the rest of them, likewise if none of them are.

Finally, the simple way to tell if an athlete in any sport is using is as follows. If, when asked what they think should happen to users of PEDS, they vacillate and say it needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis, and that one and two year bans are appropriate, then they're a user. If however they say that anyone caught using should be banned for life, then they're clean and always have been. Pretty simple really.

[Igordemorais 79]

Ain't nobody gonna tell me that the H-bomb didn't deserve the win! And he's making Yokozuna too.

[Bugman 384]

If however they say that anyone caught using should be banned for life, then they're clean and always have been. Pretty simple really.

Either that or they have a great poker face :-D, i agree with Dr Radical in that i find yaocho to be more disappointing than possible steroid use, i do worry about their health though, i already feel bad watching some rikishi that are very overweight and i don't want to think about what possible health-issues steroid-use might be adding to that.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Bugman

[Igordemorais 79]

High blood pressure, thyroid problems, high cholesterol, testicular atrophy, gynecomasty, depression, and in the case of insulin, diabetes.

[Mark.Buckton 68]

But to take this back to the beginning, this didn't start as a discussion about the effects of PEDs. It started as a claim that rikishi (specifically Hakuho and Harumafuji) used steroids and that's why they ended up as one and two in the last basho. Despite the last three pages of discussion no-one yet has managed to post any evidence that either of them, or most other rikishi, are on the gas.

Finally, the simple way to tell if an athlete in any sport is using is as follows. If, when asked what they think should happen to users of PEDS, they vacillate and say it needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis, and that one and two year bans are appropriate, then they're a user. If however they say that anyone caught using should be banned for life, then they're clean and always have been. Pretty simple really.

Spot on in that no evidence exists / has been offered. I feel as if we have just had three pages of steroid promos.

Said it before and will always believe that anything unnatural is cheating. This includes steroids, creatine and any and all other drugs that only serve to promote performance. NB - this is not the same as drugs that promote recovery of illness or injury.

I believe anyone caught using any steroids et al non-medically prescribed for an existing proven medical condition should be disqualified as a cheat.

[Igordemorais 79]

Aren't you the guy from that terrible pretentious Sumo podcast? This explains so much

[Mark.Buckton 68]

Aren't you the guy from that terrible pretentious Sumo podcast? This explains so much

I am a guy who would pass any blood test in the world of sports and not have to worry about a ban. Manekineko was spot on as I said, no evidence, just theory and attempts to change tack. If you want to be taken seriously, back up your claims, otherwise it is little more than gossip.

I will say no more on this. Not worth it.

[Akinomaki 41,864]

drug test. Yes, they did have one a few years ago, formed a committee to oversee the tests, but since then-nothing.

On the 21st in the kokugikan for all rikishi a lecture about doping was held, following the one of last December:

"About Important points of doping test".

A handbook with forbidden medical substances and freely sold medicines which are OK to use was distributed.

Dr. Minami from the Nihon Medical Science University, member of the sumo kyokai doping prevention committee was the lecturer: "In case of doping violation it is a disgrace and sanctions come with it. When using medicine I want to see enough caution."

Hakuho commented: "While facing bouts it's a necessity (to know about this). Several varieties (of medicine) come out. About food as well, (forbidden drugs) have to be definitely recognized."

[Igordemorais 79]

So there are rules against it?

It's wrong then.

[Akinomaki 41,864]

The lecture was also about WADA-banned substances.

The doping prevention committee started in April. Another article states that implementation of doping test is not to be expected, but PR-chief Hakkaku-oyakata said "I want to see a rise of awareness towards doping".

Rikishi comments: "Although they don't test, still a course ..." "I probably won't look at it (the list of forbidden substances) again."