Can't forgive Taikai

[Asameshimae 220]

Just can't forgive Chiyotaikai for that henka win over Kotomitsuki. With Taikai so obviously nervous, Mitsuki could have tried to pull a henka on Taikai's charge ahead type of sumo, but that would be the height of bad manners to pull on a guy facing demotion from Ozeki, if he had done so. So of course, he goes straight ahead and TAIKAI pulls the henka! Even the announcer made a reference to it. Oh well, I guess I'll forgive him. Makes for drama anyway.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Asanomeshi

[Fujisan 537]

Just can't forgive Chiyotaikai for that henka win over Kotomitsuki. With Taikai so obviously nervous, Mitsuki could have tried to pull a henka on Taikai's charge ahead type of sumo, but that would be the height of bad manners to pull on a guy facing demotion from Ozeki, if he had done so. So of course, he goes straight ahead and TAIKAI pulls the henka! Even the announcer made a reference to it. Oh well, I guess I'll forgive him. Makes for drama anyway.

Many of the best have henka'd on occasion.....

I still remember Takanohanas henka against Taikai....

The look on Taikais face was priceless,he was nearly off the dohyo by the time he realised he missed.

[Treblemaker 254]

Just can't forgive Chiyotaikai for that henka win over Kotomitsuki. With Taikai so obviously nervous, Mitsuki could have tried to pull a henka on Taikai's charge ahead type of sumo, but that would be the height of bad manners to pull on a guy facing demotion from Ozeki, if he had done so. So of course, he goes straight ahead and TAIKAI pulls the henka! Even the announcer made a reference to it. Oh well, I guess I'll forgive him. Makes for drama anyway.

Many of the best have henka'd on occasion.....

I still remember Takanohanas henka against Taikai....

The look on Taikais face was priceless,he was nearly off the dohyo by the time he realised he missed.

I think I was more upset at Haruma's henka of Kisenosato than Chiyo's one of Mitsuki. In the first one, it was a blatant cheap-shot that took Kise right out of the yusho race in the same manner that destroyed Asa in March. This, after Haruma was telling the world that he'd be "doing the Ozeki rank proud by doing going-forward sumo". Horse-crap.

With Chiyo, the blame HAS to be squarely on Mitsuki. He's not a rookie, and knows Chiyo's moves and motives. Mitsuki has one of the best tachi-ai's of anyone, and while it's explosive and powerful, a few brain cells might have been in order today. Chiyo was easy pickings. M just had a major brain-cramp. As the announcer said, "desperate times mean desperate measures".

[Asameshimae 220]

"I still remember Takanohanas henka against Taikai...."

The look on Taikais face was priceless,he was nearly off the dohyo by the time he realised he missed.

I had forgotten that! Remember seeing that. Might have to see if I can find the VTR somewhere.

"I think I was more upset at Haruma's henka of Kisenosato than Chiyo's one of Mitsuki."

I have been busy this basho, I didn't see that one.

"With Chiyo, the blame HAS to be squarely on Mitsuki."

Yeah, I see your point you made, was just my gut reaction the moment I saw it.

"As the announcer said, "desperate times mean desperate measures""

Well, the Japanese announcer said something like, "Mitsuki just wanted to give Taikai a straight on attack, and well...." in the indirect way the Japanese often have of saying things.

[Rattlebones 0]

I find the Henka comments funny.

The point of the sport, ignoring all the esoterica surrounding it, is to either knock someone down or take them out of the ring.

Where should it become someone who does that's fault that his opponent couldn't control his balance?

Now, if it were a rule that you have to charge forward and make contact before moving to the side to unbalance your opponent, I'd have to reconsider my stance on this... however, as a Rikshi you need to be aware of the fact that your opponent might not just stand there and let you drive into them ... particularly one who is on the verge of demotion and looking for wins to maintain his position in this profession.

I find the henka comments akin to finding fault with American Football teams who have "trick" plays and don't simply drive the ball up the middle on every play...

[Treblemaker 254]

I find the Henka comments funny.

The point of the sport, ignoring all the esoterica surrounding it, is to either knock someone down or take them out of the ring.

Where should it become someone who does that's fault that his opponent couldn't control his balance?

Now, if it were a rule that you have to charge forward and make contact before moving to the side to unbalance your opponent, I'd have to reconsider my stance on this... however, as a Rikshi you need to be aware of the fact that your opponent might not just stand there and let you drive into them ... particularly one who is on the verge of demotion and looking for wins to maintain his position in this profession.

I find the henka comments akin to finding fault with American Football teams who have "trick" plays and don't simply drive the ball up the middle on every play...

And you're quite right about football teams (and indeed most sports) where trick plays and creativity enter into it. But Sumo prides itself on being, in Victorian terms, a "gentleman's sport" - where the participants are acknowledging the rules and attempt to exhibit "forward moving sumo" and all those other quality traits that followers of the sport expect. Heck, they even show each other their hands - that there are no concealed weapons.

In training, I'm pretty sure that time spent in practicing the tachi-ai is done assuming that the opponent will charge straight forward. I don't recall hearing about any rikishi practicing henkas.

And you're also right when you say that one MUST be aware that the opponent will, on occasion, take a leap of faith. Kotomitsuki learned that lesson with Chiyo - and the loss was all Mitsuki's - with his vast experience, he should have seen it coming.

The whole concept of the tachi-ai is to synchronize breathing, to give each man a fair start and to level the playing ground so that each fight is fair and square ("fair and circle" doesn't seem to work here). I mean, nobody yells, "GO!". They start when they're ready and people freak out if there's a matta.

So, the whole trouble with henkas is that they single-handedly defeat the whole purpose of "fair and square". And this, above any other move in any other sport, would be the ultimate cheap trick. After a good Aran henka, go around and ask people if they were satisfied with the match. Did they come away with a good feeling? Do THEY feel cheated? I was looking forward to a great match between Kise and HF, and I felt really let down/cheated with that micro-second move. It was cheap, sneaky, and more than anything, took a key participant in a possible yusho race right out of the equation.

Like being told, when you get up to bat, that you're already "out".

The fact that it's accepted by the Kyokai as a legitimate move is then illigitimized by the fact that it's not officially listed as an official Kimarite technique.

It's cheap, sneaky, underhanded, cheap, sly, cheap, (I don't have a good thesaurus at hand) and it's - in victorian terms, "Not good form".

And I don't like it either.

[Washuyama 662]

After a good Aran henka...

Is there such a thing?

[kotoeikoku 0]

Why does the kyokai tolerate it? After all, we've seen with the YDC comments on Harumafuji's henka against Kisenosato that it is by no means only overseas sumo fans who seethe about henkas.

My guess is that they're worried that if they ban it they would remove a lot of the tricks smaller rikishi have in their arsenal, plus give them an even worse headache than the two hands down thing in determining what was a 'proper' tachiai or not. Where do you draw the line between hitting straight up and leading straight into a lightning fast inashi (which is what Harumafuji's shisho seemed to be implying he did), and a straight-up henka?

[Bealzbob 0]

Chiyotaikai should be asked to retire. It is obvious he is being kept in his rank by accomplices. His kadoban record is a mockery as it is not earned or deserved.

[Asashosakari 20,310]

His kadoban record is a mockery as it is not earned or deserved.

I think my mind just exploded in a flash of pretty colours.

[Fay 1,677]

His kadoban record is a mockery as it is not earned or deserved.

I think my mind just exploded in a flash of pretty colours.

Too bad, one more mind lost in universe (Clapping wildly...)

[Doitsuyama 1,263]

His kadoban record is a mockery as it is not earned or deserved.

I think my mind just exploded in a flash of pretty colours.

Well, "earning" a kadoban is the wrong expression for sure. But always getting the kachi-koshi when kadoban certainly could be thought as "earned".

[Bealzbob 0]

His kadoban record is a mockery as it is not earned or deserved.

I think my mind just exploded in a flash of pretty colours.

Well, "earning" a kadoban is the wrong expression for sure. But always getting the kachi-koshi when kadoban certainly could be thought as "earned".

Exactly. The 'earning' of the record is in the fact that he 'mocks' his way to the subsequent KK every time.

[Rattlebones 0]

So, the issue is that while it is not an illegal move it's considered bad form...

I can accept that on the whole.

However I'd rather see it formalized that the initial move must be forward until contact is made. Otherwise, in my twisted Judoka way of thinking, the rikishi are simply utilizing well accepted principles of Japanese martial arts.

[Asameshimae 220]

Someone mentioned earlier that the two rikishi go when they are both ready. I think it would certainly reduce henka if the gyoji were the one to tell them when they had to go. It would at least be interesting to see what effect this type of change in the rules might bring about. Though of course, I think the chance of this happening is near zero.

(* By henka, I of course mean the henka where the rikishi simply sidesteps his opponent and gives him a little tap to send him sprawling.)

Edited May 29, 2009 by Asanomeshi

[Orion 431]

Someone mentioned earlier that the two rikishi go when they are both ready. I think it would certainly reduce henka if the gyoji were the one to tell them when they had to go. It would at least be interesting to see what effect this type of change in the rules might bring about. Though of course, I think the chance of this happening is near zero.

They already do it this way in amateur sumo. The 'in one breath' judged by the contestants themselves is one of the biggest differences.

Orion

[salle 11]

Someone mentioned earlier that the two rikishi go when they are both ready. I think it would certainly reduce henka if the gyoji were the one to tell them when they had to go.

How this is going to reduce henka? I can't imagine it ...

Imagine you are there with your two fists on the dohyo looking straight into the eyes of your opponent and thinking "I'm going to jump left when we start". How does it matter if the start signal comes from gyoji?

You are prepared to jump left; you hear the signal; you jump left; The Universe screams: HENKA!

[salle 11]

So, the issue is that while it is not an illegal move it's considered bad form...

Yes that's it. Legal move, but not something to be proud about.

Does it really matter? Should anyone care? Well ... everyone can have his own answer and easily defend it.

There's one case when it certainly does matter though!

If someone is aiming at wearing Tsuna soon then henka can matter a lot. Harumafuji is certainly in such position now. One henka every next basho and he might find himself still at Ozeki rank even after sequence of several 15-0 yusho.

Similar for active Yokozuna. If Yokozuna starts doing henka every now and then he might be advised to retire after couple of basho even if he doesn't lose as single bout. Remember how hard Asa was criticized for his ketaguri against Kisenosato back in Kyushu 2006. No henka, perectly legal and definitely difficult to execute kimarite, but it was considered a shame for Yokozuna to do it.

I hope this also makes sense.

[Treblemaker 254]

So, the issue is that while it is not an illegal move it's considered bad form...

Yes that's it. Legal move, but not something to be proud about.

Does it really matter? Should anyone care? Well ... everyone can have his own answer and easily defend it.

There's one case when it certainly does matter though!

If someone is aiming at wearing Tsuna soon then henka can matter a lot. Harumafuji is certainly in such position now. One henka every next basho and he might find himself still at Ozeki rank even after sequence of several 15-0 yusho.

Similar for active Yokozuna. If Yokozuna starts doing henka every now and then he might be advised to retire after couple of basho even if he doesn't lose as single bout. Remember how hard Asa was criticized for his ketaguri against Kisenosato back in Kyushu 2006. No henka, perectly legal and definitely difficult to execute kimarite, but it was considered a shame for Yokozuna to do it.

I hope this also makes sense.

I remember seeing this ketaguri against Dejima's injured right leg and thinking "How cheap can he be? Kick an injured leg out from under someone". But it's legal. And very typical Asa.

I suppose in Asa's case, it helped get him to where he is now, but still a less than honorable tactic.

[Bealzbob 0]

I remember seeing this ketaguri against Dejima's injured right leg and thinking "How cheap can he be? Kick an injured leg out from under someone". But it's legal. And very typical Asa.

I suppose in Asa's case, it helped get him to where he is now, but still a less than honorable tactic.

You can't compare a henka to exploiting a competitors weakness. That's like saying in football 'oh I wont kick it at the goalkeepers left because I know he's weak diving to that side'. Dejima climbs on the dohyo with a clear weakness so it is there to be used. It is not a cheap shot. He can always give a fusensho. And as for the implication that it helped Asashoryu to get to where he is now? I hardly think relying on opponents injuries or taking mid-bout cheap shots was something he needed to do to become a yokozuna. His cheap shots tend(ed) to be after he has utterly dominated a rikishi. Less than honourable yes, but AFTER the event.

[Peterao 3]

I remember seeing this ketaguri against Dejima's injured right leg and thinking "How cheap can he be? Kick an injured leg out from under someone". But it's legal. And very typical Asa.

I suppose in Asa's case, it helped get him to where he is now, but still a less than honorable tactic.

You can't compare a henka to exploiting a competitors weakness.

(Whatever above, it is funny...)

How do you think henka is done? By jumping to the side at the tachiai, and forcing the opponent down with some contact.

How do you think this ketaguri was done. By jumping to the side at the tachiai, and forcing Dejima down with a leg kick!

This is not comparing apples to oranges! This is like comparing a fresh apple to a rotten apple. Seems like a fair comparison to me.

[Bealzbob 0]

Apologies Peterao, that clearly IS a henka. What I was trying to do (poorly) was to make a general distinction between doing a henka (which is wrong) as opposed to exploiting an opponents injury (which is acceptable).

[Takamizawa 0]

In this case a henka was the easiest and safest way to guarantee Chiyo the win over Mitsuki. If they had fought straight forward in a fixed match, there was still the risk of Chiyo slipping up or something along that vein. Some people have been talking like Mitsuki didn't throw it or something. Cmon, he's my favorite rikishi, and I can tell you that he was gifting it to Chiyo.

[Harry 67]

In this case a henka was the easiest and safest way to guarantee Chiyo the win over Mitsuki. If they had fought straight forward in a fixed match, there was still the risk of Chiyo slipping up or something along that vein. Some people have been talking like Mitsuki didn't throw it or something. Cmon, he's my favorite rikishi, and I can tell you that he was gifting it to Chiyo.

Notice that Taikai didn't henka him in Haru 2009 when Mickey really needed it for his KK to recover from his own kadoban. This wasn't so much a gift to Taikai as the 2009 ozeki gift exchange programme (sounds nicer than ozeki back scratcher association). Mickey got his 8th win in an 8-7 basho that time.

Taikai gave Kaio one when he was last trying to come back after kadoban so he got one back this time. Kaio got KK that basho too of course, 8-7.

So please forgive Taikai or curse the three of them together.

[Takamizawa 0]

In this case a henka was the easiest and safest way to guarantee Chiyo the win over Mitsuki. If they had fought straight forward in a fixed match, there was still the risk of Chiyo slipping up or something along that vein. Some people have been talking like Mitsuki didn't throw it or something. Cmon, he's my favorite rikishi, and I can tell you that he was gifting it to Chiyo.

Notice that Taikai didn't henka him in Haru 2009 when Mickey really needed it for his KK to recover from his own kadoban. This wasn't so much a gift to Taikai as the 2009 ozeki gift exchange programme (sounds nicer than ozeki back scratcher association). Mickey got his 8th win in an 8-7 basho that time.

Taikai gave Kaio one when he was last trying to come back after kadoban so he got one back this time. Kaio got KK that basho too of course, 8-7.

So please forgive Taikai or curse the three of them together.

Exactly! Sorry, this is what I was trying to get at, but my wording was a little bit lame (Detective...) . I didn't mean for it to sound like a condemnation (I really don't mind the ozeki gifting each other wins), just that the henka was the safest and most logical course of action to assure Chiyo his much needed win.