Doitsuyama 1,194 Posted November 9, 2003 A very interesting day 1 saw both Yokozuna and the top two Ozeki win while the other two Ozeki lost and didn't look good in the loss. The Maegashira and Juryo ranks provided some surprises and we will see in the next days if those were flukes or establish new trends. -- Doitsuyama Day 1 Juryo J13e Towanoyama (1-0) yoritaoshi Ms1e Ama (0-1) J12w Bushuyama (1-0) yorikiri J12e Nakao (0-1) J11w Oikari (1-0) oshidashi J11e Tochinohana (0-1) J10e Senshuyama (1-0) oshidashi J10w Dewanofuji (0-1) J9w Takanotsuru (1-0) uwatenage J9e Masutsuyoshi (0-1) J8e Juzan (1-0) tsukidashi J8w Aogiyama (0-1) J7w Kasugao (1-0) yorikiri J7e Futeno (0-1) J6e Chiyotenzan (1-0) yorikiri J6w Kaido (0-1) J5e Kitazakura (1-0) yorikiri J5w Harunoyama (0-1) J4e Ushiomaru (1-0) yoritaoshi J4w Hayateumi (0-1) J3e Asanowaka (1-0) hatakikomi J3w Kobo (0-1) J2w Kokkai (1-0) tsukitaoshi J2e Wakanoyama (0-1) J1e Kaiho (1-0) yoritaoshi J1w Gojoro (0-1) Makuuchi M15w Yotsukasa (1-0) oshidashi M15e Tamarikido (0-1) M14e Toyozakura (1-0) tsukiotoshi M14w Dejima (0-1) M13w Otsukasa (1-0) oshidashi M13e Tamakasuga (0-1) M12e Kotonowaka (1-0) yorikiri M12w Takanowaka (0-1) M11e Wakatoba (1-0) oshidashi M11w Takekaze (0-1) M10e Jumonji (1-0) oshidashi M10w Tochisakae (0-1) M9w Shimotori (1-0) tsukiotoshi M8w Kakizoe (0-1) M9e Kasuganishiki (1-0) oshitaoshi M8e Buyuzan (0-1) M7e Hokutoriki (1-0) okuridashi M7w Kotoryu (0-1) M6e Kinkaiyama (1-0) tsukiotoshi M6w Tokitsuumi (0-1) M5w Kyokushuzan (1-0) yorikiri M5e Takanonami (0-1) M4e Miyabiyama (1-0) yorikiri M4w Asasekiryu (0-1) M3w Tamanoshima (1-0) yorikiri S1w Kyokutenho (0-1) S1e Wakanosato (1-0) yorikiri M3e Aminishiki (0-1) M2w Tosanoumi (1-0) yorikiri O2w Musoyama (0-1) M2e Toki (1-0) hatakikomi O2e Kaio (0-1) O1w Tochiazuma (1-0) okuridashi M1w Kotomitsuki (0-1) O1e Chiyotaikai (1-0) oshitaoshi M1e Tochinonada (0-1) Y1w Musashimaru (1-0) oshidashi K1e Takamisakari (0-1) Y1e Asashoryu (1-0) yorikiri K1w Iwakiyama (0-1) Day 2 Makushita Ms11e Ryuho (0-0) Ms10w Wakakosho (0-0) Ms9e Hakuho (0-0) Ms8w Raiko (0-0) Ms7e Hamanoshima (0-0) Ms6w Hamanishiki (0-0) Ms5e Roho (0-0) Ms4w Asofuji (0-0) Ms3e Wakatenro (0-0) Ms2w Kotoiwakuni (0-0) Juryo Ms1w Tokitenku (1-0) J12w Bushuyama (1-0) J13e Towanoyama (1-0) J11w Oikari (1-0) J10e Senshuyama (1-0) J12e Nakao (0-1) J11e Tochinohana (0-1) J9w Takanotsuru (1-0) J8e Juzan (1-0) J10w Dewanofuji (0-1) J9e Masutsuyoshi (0-1) J7w Kasugao (1-0) J8w Aogiyama (0-1) J6w Kaido (0-1) J5e Kitazakura (1-0) J7e Futeno (0-1) J6e Chiyotenzan (1-0) J4w Hayateumi (0-1) J5w Harunoyama (0-1) J3w Kobo (0-1) J4e Ushiomaru (1-0) J2w Kokkai (1-0) J1e Kaiho (1-0) J3e Asanowaka (1-0) J2e Wakanoyama (0-1) J1w Gojoro (0-1) Makuuchi M14e Toyozakura (1-0) M15w Yotsukasa (1-0) M15e Tamarikido (0-1) M13w Otsukasa (1-0) M12e Kotonowaka (1-0) M14w Dejima (0-1) M13e Tamakasuga (0-1) M11w Takekaze (0-1) M12w Takanowaka (0-1) M10w Tochisakae (0-1) M9e Kasuganishiki (1-0) M11e Wakatoba (1-0) M10e Jumonji (1-0) M8w Kakizoe (0-1) M7e Hokutoriki (1-0) M9w Shimotori (1-0) M8e Buyuzan (0-1) M6w Tokitsuumi (0-1) M5e Takanonami (0-1) M7w Kotoryu (0-1) M6e Kinkaiyama (1-0) M4w Asasekiryu (0-1) M3e Aminishiki (0-1) M5w Kyokushuzan (1-0) M4e Miyabiyama (1-0) M3w Tamanoshima (1-0) K1e Takamisakari (0-1) M2w Tosanoumi (1-0) O1e Chiyotaikai (1-0) M2e Toki (1-0) M1w Kotomitsuki (0-1) O2w Musoyama (0-1) O2e Kaio (0-1) K1w Iwakiyama (0-1) S1e Wakanosato (1-0) O1w Tochiazuma (1-0) Y1e Asashoryu (1-0) M1e Tochinonada (0-1) S1w Kyokutenho (0-1) Y1w Musashimaru (1-0) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted November 9, 2003 (edited) Started watching from Wakanoyama v. Kokkai. Kokkai v. Wakanoyama - Kokkai seems to be getting stronger while Wakanoyama is getting weaker and weaker. I hope to see Kokkai in Makuuchi next basho. His chances are high as long as he doesn't choke. Otsukasa v. Tamakasuga - What did I miss? It looked like a clear win for Otsukasa, clearer than Taikai's win later on, where they didn't have a mono-ii at all. I'm glad Otsukasa won the rematch. Kotonowaka v. Takanowaka - Good bout! I have high respect to both of these rikishi and it's a pity one of them had to lose... I hope both of them rise up the ranks because lower Maegashira is not where they belong. Kasuganishiki v. Buyuzan - Buyuzan pushes... and pushes... and pushes... And just can't push his foe out. Eventually he runs out of steam and is pushed out himself. Typical bout scenario when Buyuzan is involved, except that sometimes he wins (but not too often, as of late). Kyokushuzan v. Takanonami - Hehehe... Just can't laugh enough at this bout, which is almost an exact replay of their meeting on the Aki senshuraku. Takanonami has got his kime hold! Surely Shuzan is doomed, because power sumo ain't his thang. But, no - with complete disrespect to the former ozeki's fading authority, Kyokushuzan simply forces him out. Miyabiyama v. Asasekiryu - Size and experience won. A couple of times Seki almost had Miyabiyama going down, but The Ball showed that he can actually hold his balance when his foes try to topple him. It's a pity that he often loses his balance when his foes don't try to topple him... Wakanosato v. Aminishiki - Sato seems to be very set on having his way. Aminishiki maybe isn't the guy to demonstrate power on, but he's just the kind of rikishi which Sato often lost to. Today he just powered him out with patience. I'm backing him up on his ozeki run, and hope he can avoid those early losses which will force him to start his quest over. Tomorrow against Azuma... interesting... Toki v. Kaio - Toki is able to push Kaio around. Chiyotaikai as of late can't. Something is definitely wrong with the climate. Kaio seemed slow and unmotivated. It also looked as he really wanted to fall. Tochiazuma v. Kotomitsuki - Is Tochiazuma finally out of his year and a half long funk? I sure hope so, cause we need another strong ozeki character around. Still hard to predict, based on one bout, against Mickey who is very unstable, with his injuries and all... Chiyotaikai v. Tochinonada - Take a close look at Taikai's left hand as he and Nada are falling down. Note how he puts it on Nada's leg instead of down on the floor. That's the difference between W and L. His hands had cost him two crucial bouts and possibly the yusho in Nagoya. Has he finally learned to control them? Musashimaru v. Takamisakari - Did Maru looked not bad or what? Still not using the left hand, but making good use of the right arm and of his 230 kilos. However, there is still a big doubt how he'll handle an open bout and an opponent more aggresive than Takamisakari today. Asashoryu v. Iwakiyama - Classic Shoryu bout - give away some position at the beginning but get the morozashi which he likes and can beat anyone with. He was on the edge, but came back immediately. Iwakiyama's weight held him in the bout a bit longer than usual, but he was still doomed. Very good win for Asashoryu. Edited November 9, 2003 by QttP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tumppi 0 Posted November 9, 2003 (edited) Kaio has lately had enormous trouble in defeaing Toki. Talking about Toki improving.. Hopefully Kaio will make it to 8 wins. Asa was close to the edge with Iwakiyama. His good grip on the mawashi saved him. Chiyotakai's sumo looked the same it did last basho so he should be one of the Yusho contestants once again. Oh yes and Tochiazuma looked strong. Edited November 9, 2003 by Tumppi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tumppi 0 Posted November 9, 2003 (edited) Chiyotaikai v. Tochinonada - Take a close look at Taikai's left hand as he and Nada are falling down. Note how he puts it on Nada's leg instead of down on the floor. That's the difference between W and L. His hands had cost him two crucial bouts and possibly the yusho in Nagoya. Has he finally learned to control them? Didn't catch his hand, better look at it again.. edit: yeah apparently you're right.. let's hope he can control his hands in the future too. Edited November 9, 2003 by Tumppi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jesinofuji 11 Posted November 9, 2003 Thank you Qttp for a great recap. Asashoryu v. Iwakiyama - Classic Shoryu bout - give away some position at the beginning but get the morozashi which he likes and can beat anyone with. He was on the edge, but came back immediately. Iwakiyama's weight held him in the bout a bit longer than usual, but he was still doomed. Very good win for Asashoryu. What really stands out about this match though is the way Asashoryu HOISTED Iwakiyama up into the air dispite giving up 30+ kilos to finish the bout. Now no one can doubt that Asashoryu not only has superior speed and technique, but superior strength as well. (In a state of confusion...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tumppi 0 Posted November 9, 2003 but superior strength as well. (In a state of confusion...) Not as superior as Wakanosato (Clapping wildly...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jesinofuji 11 Posted November 9, 2003 This is one that has always puzzled me. Wakanosato is called strong by people everywhere, from television commentators, to SML people, and on this forum too. Where exactly does Wakanosato's reputation for great strength come from? As far as I know he was never a bodybuilder or anything. He's certainly not one of the biggest Rikishi. Is he really as strong as behemoths like Musashimaru or Kotonowaka? He looks muscular, but not moreso than the muscle bound Sentoryu or even Chiyotaikai? Could he really be stronger than Kaio with his record breaking (don't know the technical term off the top of my head so I guess I'll just call it) grip power. Was there every any kind of strenght competition among rikishi during a Jungyou that he won or something? And then question#2, is his reputed superior strenght specifically upper body strength, or is it both upper and lower. Surely leg and abdominal strength are most relevant in Sumo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted November 9, 2003 This is one that has always puzzled me. Wakanosato is called strong by people everywhere, from television commentators, to SML people, and on this forum too. Where exactly does Wakanosato's reputation for great strength come from? As far as I know he was never a bodybuilder or anything. He's certainly not one of the biggest Rikishi. Is he really as strong as behemoths like Musashimaru or Kotonowaka? He looks muscular, but not moreso than the muscle bound Sentoryu or even Chiyotaikai? Could he really be stronger than Kaio with his record breaking (don't know the technical term off the top of my head so I guess I'll just call it) grip power. Was there every any kind of strenght competition among rikishi during a Jungyou that he won or something?And then question#2, is his reputed superior strenght specifically upper body strength, or is it both upper and lower. Surely leg and abdominal strength are most relevant in Sumo. I can't answer these questions, but I suspect it might stem in one way or the other from his oyakata, who as a yokozuna himself were regarded as exceptionally strong (and called Popeye if I remember correctly). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted November 9, 2003 (edited) What really stands out about this match though is the way Asashoryu HOISTED Iwakiyama up into the air dispite giving up 30+ kilos to finish the bout. Now no one can doubt that Asashoryu not only has superior speed and technique, but superior strength as well. (In a state of confusion...) Not really. First of all, it's not the first time Shoryu lifted someone up in the air, and most of them were heavier than him (although not as heavy as Iwakiyama). Second, Asashoryu is not the only rikishi who does those lift moves, Kotoryu is one name which springs to mind. From a good grip, a strong person who weighs 70 kilos can without problems lift a person who weighs 100, and the effect of the weight differences diminishes as weights rise. What I find amazing is not that Asashoryu can lift people up, but that he can repeatedly get those superior grips against people who might be physically stronger than him, thus shutting down all their efforts. I'm sure Iwakiyama knew that Asashoryu likes morozashi and that the outcome of the bout may well depend on whether he gets that grip or not. Iwakiyama knew, but couldn't do anything, because Shoryu is much quicker than him. There is no doubt that Asashoryu is extremely powerful for his size. But that's not what's making him so exceptional. In a bout of pure strength (if there even is such a thing), Asashoryu will lose to Maru, Kaio, Taikai, Sato, probably also to Musoyama, Miyabiyama and their likes. But his technique allows him to use 100% of his strength and to prevent his opponents from using theirs. That's why he wins. Edited November 9, 2003 by QttP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted November 9, 2003 What I find amazing is not that Asashoryu can lift people up, but that he can repeatedly get those superior grips against people who might be physically stronger than him, thus shutting down all their efforts. I'm sure Iwakiyama knew that Asashoryu likes morozashi and that the outcome of the bout may well depend on whether he gets that grip or not. Iwakiyama knew, but couldn't do anything, because Shoryu is much quicker than him.There is no doubt that Asashoryu is extremely powerful for his size. But that's not what's making him so exceptional. In a bout of pure strength (if there even is such a thing), Asashoryu will lose to Maru, Kaio, Taikai, Sato, probably also to Musoyama, Miyabiyama and their likes. But his technique allows him to use 100% of his strength and to prevent his opponents from using theirs. That's why he wins. I completely agree (In a state of confusion...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tumppi 0 Posted November 9, 2003 (edited) Qttp - good post, I totally agree! Jesinofuji - I don't know either.. It's true Kaio seems to be even stronger on the belt, let alone Musashimaru. Also Chiyotaikai's sumo is very strong although he doesn't do belt much. Good question actually.. edit: I'd really like to see some of these rikishi in the gym maxing out on the bench etc. Edited November 9, 2003 by Tumppi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naifuzan 1 Posted November 9, 2003 Wasn't there reports recently of some "strong man in sumo" competition in some tv-show, wich taikai won? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tominishiki 0 Posted November 9, 2003 (edited) The first day of kyushu was full of suprises.I start from Juryo Juzan win ex mackuuchi Aogiyama . Who was belive that he wil loss in Juryo (at least I dont think so)Toyozakura mackuuchi rookie win ex ozeki Dejima I hope Deji zeki will back for hes old self.Very good bout between Takanowaka and Kotonowaka Kinki zeki win Tokitsuumi a very quick bout good start for Kinki (bad start for me)Tamanoshima won Kyokutenho for the second time I think that is a suprise Toki won U Toki looks in a good shape thats it for now. Edited November 9, 2003 by tominishiki Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted November 9, 2003 (edited) When people say that Wakanosato is strong, they don't necessarily mean that he's the strongest. I tend to think that Kaio, when on form, is stronger in the belt sumo. But you can't deny that Wakanosato is strong. I think his reputation comes partially from his sumo style - when someone is doing belt sumo and is good at it (Wakanosato can beat anyone on almost any given day) people tend to see it as a sign of true strength. Also, you can't argue with results. Wakanosato fights with the best rikishi every basho and steadily wins more than he loses. Last year he was 4th in the makuuchi division in wins (after Asashoryu, Chiyotaikai and Musashimaru) and this year he got even better. So I'm guessing that the combination of his good results and his fighting style which is clearly strength-based is the cause to his (deserved, IMO) reputation of an exceptionally strong man. Edited November 9, 2003 by QttP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaikitsune Makoto 209 Posted November 9, 2003 Asashoryu likes to show off. Morozashi lift with deep grip is not the most impressive displays of power. I think one of the biggest displays of power was some basho ago when Iwakiyama used hidari-yotsu to basically carry Kasugao half diameter of the dohyo. Now THAT was immense power. Wakanosato is known for his strength because he does moves on the dohyo that Asashoryu can never even dream of doing. Nobody can do sukuinage twist from static position like Wakanosato can. Shoryu is strong but his main strength is his ability to put all that power into use. In that he is the best in sumo. That is why he is a yokozuna. For example Tochinonada has awesome power which exceeds that of Asashoryu clearly but he can rarely put all that into use in a bout. There are many 1000-0 victories he clinches when his power in on and doesn't get wasted. That is why he has those kinboshi and dominating victories over every rikishi in sumo. And Nada has hoisted Maru off the ground from morozashi and has used his hip power to twist 230kg of Akebono aside after hanging on the tawara for ages... In rikishi's strongest man competitions, technique plays a rather big roll. KaioU dominates arm wrestling completely but for example Wakanosato is absolutely pathetic in arm wrestling. He seems to lose to anyone in 2 seconds or so and that is due to his total lack of skill in that event. Chiyotaikai and KaioU have been the strongest in pushing/throwing/punching events. Every sport is different and it takes time to refine the already existing power to new sport. Therefor rikishi with most wide repertoire of athletic background do well in "unexpected" events. Wakanohana complained that it is hard to take tackles in american football since the tackles can come from angles that is not usual for sumo. The power is in same muscles but refining needed. Some bench press, squat etc. doesn't say much about rikishi's power. Once upon a time in 2000 KaioU went to gym and did squatting with huge weights without problems. Then he went to do leg curls and was about as strong as I am in that. COnclusion: I have as strong thigh biceps as KaioU? No...he had no innervation for that move at first. After some learning period or so I am sure he easily doubled the weights he used. Rikishi's power is formidable. SImply the fact that they can do airborne uwatenage on 150kg foe without timing perfection is already quite a demostration of overall power in upper and lower body. Moreover training against very heavy foes day by day is itself a very hard "bodybuilding" and just the sheer fact that if you weigh 160kg and carry the weight well you get a good extra burden in your training without too detrimental decrease in intensity. I guess a good proof about rikishi's strength is the way strong man competitors (who bench press 250+ and squat 350+) can't come to sumo and bulldoze with their power. When Kotomitsuki was an amateur he beat the champion 130kg Greek Roman wrestler of Finland who since then has become the strongest man in the world ( I think) and beat him by pushing him out without any sumo skills. Also the newcomers to ozumo like Kokkai and Roho were both very strong amateurs in their disciplines and especially Kokkai is one of the biggest athletes I have ever seen. Bodybuilders are not really strong by default. Powerlifters and weighlifters are. Sentoryu has bodybuilder's body but still his main training is sumo based training and he is sometimes manhandled on the dohyo like a child and his power can't do much against KaioU in keiko no matter what he does. I guess Sentoryu is the rikishi who likes to work out with biggest weights though and really emphasize that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted November 9, 2003 Lotsa good stuff It was about time you got here. :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tenkashoryu 0 Posted November 9, 2003 Great discussion, special thx for Kaikitsune & Qttp. (Applauding...) By the way, I was wondering that how rikishis (especially sanyaki) do in armwrestling competitions. I know Kaio beats everybody. But how well azuma, taikai, shoryu and others do there? :-S I bet above three beat everybody except kaio :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jesinofuji 11 Posted November 10, 2003 Hoisting a rikishi opponent requires both strength and skill. One without the other wont get the job done. I at least was very impressed with the way Asashoryu won. A 170 pound rikishi being lifted into the air isn't something you see every day. And Nada has hoisted Maru off the ground from morozashi and used his hip power to twist 230kg of Akebono aside after hanging on the tawara for ages... Well I want to see this, any recollection of when these took place. I'd like to see if they are up on banzuke.com. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted November 10, 2003 A 170 pound rikishi being lifted into the air isn't something you see every day. Pound? Kilogram... :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,726 Posted November 10, 2003 A 170 pound rikishi being lifted into the air isn't something you see every day. Pound? Kilogram... :-) Hey, a 170 pound rikishi lifted into the air isn't something you see every day either, at least not in Makuuchi. :-P Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted November 10, 2003 Toki v. Kaio - Toki is able to push Kaio around. Chiyotaikai as of late can't. Something is definitely wrong with the climate. Kaio seemed slow and unmotivated. It also looked as he really wanted to fall. I have one word for that, but I'll repeat it three times for kicks: yaocho, yaocho, yaocho. I'm in an evil mood today :-P Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tumppi 0 Posted November 10, 2003 Toki v. Kaio - Toki is able to push Kaio around. Chiyotaikai as of late can't. Something is definitely wrong with the climate. Kaio seemed slow and unmotivated. It also looked as he really wanted to fall. I have one word for that, but I'll repeat it three times for kicks: yaocho, yaocho, yaocho. I'm in an evil mood today :-) Sure seems that way ;-) (Sigh...) What is it in Toki that makes it hard for Kaio compared to Chiyotaikai? :-P Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,628 Posted November 10, 2003 What is it in Toki that makes it hard for Kaio compared to Chiyotaikai? His voluptuous breasts, probably. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tumppi 0 Posted November 10, 2003 (edited) What is it in Toki that makes it hard for Kaio compared to Chiyotaikai? His voluptuous breasts, probably. lol :-) Hope not.. :-P edit: I really laughed out after reading that.. Edited November 10, 2003 by Tumppi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted November 12, 2003 Wakanosato v. Aminishiki - Sato seems to be very set on having his way. Aminishiki maybe isn't the guy to demonstrate power on, but he's just the kind of rikishi which Sato often lost to. Today he just powered him out with patience. I'm backing him up on his ozeki run, and hope he can avoid those early losses which will force him to start his quest over. Tomorrow against Azuma... interesting... Admit it. I jinxed the guy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
