Love and marriage, love and marriage

[Hananotaka 8]

I still have nearly twenty years left. Who wants to become 90 anyway?

Interesting discussion this. A little bit OT perhaps, but as an unmarried mother I'm curious - how are children born outside of marriage regarded? I understand they have few rights when it comes to inheritance etc...or am I wrong?

I Am Not A Japanese Estate Lawyer, but...

In Japan there is something called a koseki, or family register. All native Japanese have them. When a couple gets married, one of them (usually the woman, but not always) puts themself on the others' family register. Thus, another word for "marriage" is nyuuseki, or "entering the register". (Incidently, this means that in Japan the moment of marriage is not the ceremony, but when they submit the forms for changing the register.)

When a child is born out of wedlock, they are put on the register of the mother. A child on its mother's register has all the full rights of inheritance and so on from the mother. If the father officially notes recognition of the child, it can then be eligible for inheritance from the father, but is entitled to only half of what any other "legitimate" children receive. As far as I know, that's only if there are other children of the father; if the child is the sole inheritor, and is recognized by law as the child of the father, there's no problem.

Incidentally, the Japanese Supreme Court said in a 2003 ruling that the law saying illegitimate children are only entitled to half of what legitimate children get seemed contrary to Article 14 of the Japanese Constitution (Equal Rights), and urged legislative action.

[Hananotaka 8]

Hananotaka you are indeed a source of wisdom and knowledge when it comes to these islands.

(I am not worthy...)

Someone once said (and ironically enough I can't remember who it was), "Knowledge is knowing where and how to find the necessary information."

In my case, Japanese Wikipedia and Google really help fill in the gaps in my knowledge. :)

[ilovesumo 12]

Someone once said (and ironically enough I can't remember who it was), "Knowledge is knowing where and how to find the necessary information."

In my case, Japanese Wikipedia and Google really help fill in the gaps in my knowledge. :)

That's exactly what I am using for 試験勉強 (I am not worthy...) chaos-students better do not study their own notes of seminars...

Edited January 3, 2008 by ilovesumo

[Koneko 0]

If the father officially notes recognition of the child, it can then be eligible for inheritance from the father, but is entitled to only half of what any other "legitimate" children receive.

So basically it's down to wether or not the father feels like it. That actually upsets me more than tales of extramarital affairs; adults will always play their games, but to a child a "daddy doesn't want you" can be pretty devastating. I also realise this is a question in which I can never be objective. (Wouldn't make a good lawyer.)

Thanks for explaining how it works legally, Hananotaka! But how is it socially? Would this be something one could admit to openly, or is it another of those things one doesn't talk about? If I'm in Japan and someone asks where Joe's dad is, should I just shyly lower my eyes and say he's dead? Then again, I'm a Gaijin...what would be the experiences of a Japanese woman in the same situation? Sorry for nagging about this, but the issue is important to me and this isn't something you read about it tourist guidebooks...

[Hananotaka 8]

If the father officially notes recognition of the child, it can then be eligible for inheritance from the father, but is entitled to only half of what any other "legitimate" children receive.

So basically it's down to wether or not the father feels like it. That actually upsets me more than tales of extramarital affairs; adults will always play their games, but to a child a "daddy doesn't want you" can be pretty devastating. I also realise this is a question in which I can never be objective. (Wouldn't make a good lawyer.)

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say it's down to whether the father feels like anything, only that due to the way the Japanese legal system is structured, with family registers, there are certain bureaucratic procedures that parents have to go through when a child is born out of wedlock. Fatherhood can also be legally presumed, I believe. The issue of recognition is largely simply one of inheritance.

Thanks for explaining how it works legally, Hananotaka! But how is it socially? Would this be something one could admit to openly, or is it another of those things one doesn't talk about? If I'm in Japan and someone asks where Joe's dad is, should I just shyly lower my eyes and say he's dead? Then again, I'm a Gaijin...what would be the experiences of a Japanese woman in the same situation? Sorry for nagging about this, but the issue is important to me and this isn't something you read about it tourist guidebooks...

Well, that's a damn hard question, and probably better answered by a native Japanese person rather than an ex-pat like myself. In Japan there's always honne (true feelings) and tatemae (the built front), and how someone feels about a single mother is generally not something we can get past tatemae on. So take this with a couple big grains of salt.

Certainly, I think for a non-Japanese person the experience would be different than for a Japanese person. Conformity is prized among Japanese people, but gaijin, we can't really conform no matter how hard we try. And of course, most people's experience with gaijin comes from what they hear about Hollywood celebrities, who are often having babies out of wedlock, adopting, and divorcing. I don't know why you are a single mother, but I imagine that almost any answer you give will be met with "Ooohhh, that must be how they do things over there", and you'll be treated differently because of your gaijinness before your single-motherness can really make an impact.

As for Japanese women. Well, in Japan there's "in-groups" and "out-groups". And generally, family matters are "in-group" matters, which mean it's none of anyone else's business. People may gossip, of course, but the tatemae will hold. Like I said earlier, group harmony is held more important than the truth, so I think most single mothers wouldn't think twice about prevaricating, or simply being less than forthcoming. (Vague answers are a most important tool in a Japanese speaker's arsenal, and as a matter of course Japanese people rarely provide more personal information than is absolutely necessary.) Divorce is on the rise here, and thus single mothers (and even single fathers) are becoming less and less unusual (as of 2005, 1,225,400 [2.7%] of the former, and 173,800 [0.4%] of the latter). Like in other places, the countryside is a bit more conservative than the big cities, and no nation has a monopoly on petty and stupid people. Still, Japan is a high-context society. If you're a single-mother, but otherwise fit in with the crowd, people will take it in stride, I think.

But really, that's a question that only a Japanese single-mother can answer.

[Koneko 0]

Thank you for answering - difficult question, I know. (Yusho winner...)

[Mark Buckton 1]

Thank you for answering - difficult question, I know. (Yusho winner...)

I have known 2 single mothers and their kids (1 and 2 kids respectively but neither family knows the other) very well for around 10 / 8 years now. The mothers have never themselves told me of the situation which is fine as it isn't my business. I have never asked but (both live with their parent in local businesses I pass daily) the grandmothers, when chewing the fat in front of the shops HAVE said that they just say their husband is working away. Loose lips on the old oftentimes.

I know the kids very well - have watched them grow from kindergarten / elementary age to near high school age (and one is now taller than I!) and they do use this line themselves - although having overheard them talking to close friends a couple of years ago, I know they admit not having met their father for years.

The way Hananotaka explains the diferent aspects of 'face' is really the key I think but I would add that what western folk call a 'lie' just isn't in Japan - even if both sides know the score.

[Koneko 0]

Thank you, Mark. The idea of conformity is one thing I have a problem grasping, as is tatemae and honne - too old and set in my ways and my culture, I suppose. You probably have to live in Japan and experience it firsthand to truly understand. Like with my son; I've raised him myself, he's a great kid...I'm proud of what I've achieved, so why should I hide this? Know what I mean? Yeah, I'll never really understand the Japanese - but that's what makes it all so interesting. :)

Thanks again to you both for taking the time to explain!

[Hananotaka 8]

To add to what Mark is saying, in the U.S. there is a fundamental operating principle: you are assumed to mean what you say. To be sure there is honne and tatemae in America ("How do I look?" "Um, you look nice!"), but the difference is that you are bound by your tatemae. You can't expect the other person to read your mind for how you really feel and act that in accordance with that.

But, you can do that in Japan. Tatemae binds no one, and in fact the biggest trouble non-Japanese have when they come here is taking tatemae too literally. Tatemae is purely to preserve group harmony. Ideally (and certainly the ideal is not always reached, just like anywhere else), everyone is in tune with each other, blemishes and speed bumps are covered by tatemae, everyone gets along, and everyone's happy. A single woman who puts up tatemae for where the father of her child is doesn't necessarily do it out of shame, but rather because of any number of reasons, like the truth being really no one else's business, or not wanting to obligate other people into helping her (a very real concern in a group oriented culture).

Seriously, though, you wouldn't have to hide anything if you came over here.

[Amanogawa 79]

When it comes to this sensational "Japanese men buying prostitutes", my impression is that things are

a bit overgeneralized, though, I could guess how disgustingly newsworthy this all sound to especially

young ladies. But it's shocking to me actually that this has been discussed in the presumption that ALL

Japanese men are doing this... No. Most men don't. Give them a chance, young ladies.

As for being a single mom. Of several single moms I know of, one explains to her daughter that her husband

died long ago. One reason is she got divorced when the daughter was only a baby, and that she is living in

a very rural village, where tatemae and family reps, harmony and sense of shame remain strong. She may be

afraid her daughter might be bullied as divorce is still considered something stigmatizing. This term "soitogeru

( being married to your spouse until death parts you )" is the ultimate praise for marriage even now.

The rest moms just go just as they are, though of course their situations never are open questions to anyone

unless he/she is very close to them. Josh is right, this is absolutely one of the in-group" matters - at least we

( or they ) consider it so - that should not be touched unnecessarily.

Divorce is still seen as something of shame. Probably we're molded into the thinking, which seems

to have much to do with nature of Japanese marriage: so much about family to family, as well as /rather than

person to person. You see enough of layers of rituals, procedures taken between the two families,

the intermediates, and all those involved. They play their own roles like arranging a long list of

ceremonies of engagement, wedding, and so on. Some, not to mention the families, may need to

spend good money through such procedures. My intermediate told me before that such complexity

and formality is intended to exert great pressures and responsibilities on the couple. The newlyweds

have to be aware how badly it would embarrass so many people if their marriage was sabotaged. Plus,

we're still a male-dominant society, meaning that it'd usually be the woman people, especially older

generations, would start talking negatively about for the divorce; "Couldn't she have been

more patient?" "How selfish to leave her husband". That may be one reason those wives would decide

to stay married to their unfaithful husbands.

I've always had an impression that many Japanese men act like a little boy, little son, should I say,

with their wives. They certainly seem to have this "inclination ( sorry I can't come up with any better

term )", that is, they want to build up son-mother relationship all over again with their wives. Maybe

they want to restore the long lost beautiful bond to their perfect mothers, I don't know.. ( and I'm not

talking about mazakon - being a mom's boy here ) Mostly the sentiment turns out innocent, but some

hurt their wives and some damage their marriages.

Life goes 8-7. Indeed.

[Fujisan 533]

I have a foolproof way of avoiding divorce.......Dont get married....

Its worked for me...

41 Years of un-marriage and not one threat of divorce.

[Mark Buckton 1]

When it comes to this sensational "Japanese men buying prostitutes", my impression is that things are

a bit overgeneralized, ..............No. Most men don't. Give them a chance, young ladies.

One thing this interesting text avoids is the choice of terms in use in Japan for those offering sex and the mentality of those who 'can't avoid' doing so as it is part of their work.

Buying sex would be from a prostitute, but what is Kabakura? Enjo-kosai? Where do the no pants coffee shops and bars with touching permitted fit in Amanogawa? I think the law in Japan is quite simple isn't it? If penetration doesn't take place, no act of purchasing sex has taken place.

Around 5/6 year back one newspaper released a figure claiming up to 90% of men surveyed to have in som way purchased sex. At the time, I asked a lot of Japanese guys I knew pretty well about it and almost all said 'yes' to hving been involved in giving money in return for what is a sexual favor even though none initially had said yes as none claimed penetration took place.

That said, the vast majority told me that doing so as part of after work drinking sessions is part of the culture, they couldn't say no, so is not really 'counted' anyway.

Only last week did conversation turn to this with a guy I know well, he was with a woman he likes, and no blushing, came out with the same, work related excuse - so it didn't really count. The woman herself agreed - if connected to work, it is shoganai.

Isn't the sex industry in Japan the second largest business in terms of aiding the economy? (not in entirely legal ways though of course)

As for the behaviour of people who get divorced in pretending that the other spouse is dead - nothing more than disgraceful on both sides for leting it happen, and it will one day be discovered.

And if men behave like little boys that is partly the responsibility of the Moms for permitting it.