Tochiazuma gone

[Manekineko 200]

If it was intai after this basho, most likely it would already be announced. I think Tochiazuma'll try for another comeback in Hatsu, and probably hang his mawashi if he can't make it. :-) If he does make it, tho', that would be something...

I'm reminded of his mother's comment on his (and his father's) shikona: it is shikona of many injuries. Unfortunately, that's true. If Azuma jr. has a son who goes into Ozumo, I hope he will give him some other shikona - I get superstitious when it comes to sumo. (Hugging...)

[Jonosuke 28]

Two Ozekis gone in two tournaments, and with Chiyotaikai struggeling maybe three in three tournaments...that could mean no ozeki in march (Hugging...) !

You know it took Musoyama a night to announce his retirement. Took Tochiazuma three days to announce his kyujo. All after facing Kokkai, obviously as strong as the proverbial brickhouse. Taikai met him too and lost, so I am wondering if he will be the next to go down.... Of couse Kaiou met him too but he won.

[Jonosuke 28]

If it was intai after this basho, most likely it would already be announced. I think Tochiazuma'll try for another comeback in Hatsu, and probably hang his mawashi if he can't make it. (Hugging...)

Apparently Tochiazuma had a broken scapula in his left shoulder, requiring six weeks of recovery time. However Tamanoii oyakata stated that he was uncertain whether Tochiazuma could make the Hatsu Basho.

About Intai, the oyakata said, "He should take the time to recover from the injury. There is no talk of retirement. He is still 28 years old. I am hoping for his strong comeback."

[Burainoan 0]

He's one of my favorite rikishi, so i'm worried about Tochi, too. hopefully, it isn't as bad as it might appear...though if it is, i'd rather see him do what's best for himself and make whatever decision is best for long-term.

and i wouldn't worry too much about ozeki being empty. Wakanosato may well be there after Hatsu, and if things *do* open up, Hakuho will be there by Nagoya.

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

After this basho is too soon for intai -- he will be sekiwake. If he cannot compete or starts the next basho and is it apparent he is not fit for sanyaku, the itnai consideration will rise.

that could mean no ozeki in march

That can't actually happen: one of Asashoryu or Kaio would be designated Yokozuna-Ozeki on the banzuke.

[Ryukaze 0]

I would certainly hope they would strip him of his Ozeki ranking as he sure hasn't demonstrated that level of sumo for quite a loooong while. Althought I've never been a a fan I've always thought Tochiazuma and excellent rikishi (Yokozuna talent even) when he is 100% and able to compete, he has excellent power and leg strength, and great technique (if somewhat basic). Unfortunately homeboy just seems to be a "walking injury" and he definately has not shown the fighting spirit to dominate consistently. At this point I would either like to see him get well and quit getting injured or just retire as this is become old news (Sign of disapproval) .......-

Edited November 19, 2004 by Ryukaze

[Kintamayama 47,222]

I would certainly hope they would strip him of his Ozeki ranking as he sure hasn't demonstrated that level of sumo for quite a loooong while.

No one "strips" anyone of anything in Sumo. "They" don't work that way. In any case, he has lost his Ozeki rank by going Kyujo, since he is kadoban. This is not guesswork, this is fact. He will no longer be Ozeki for all intents and purposes next Basho. He will start the next basho as Sekiwake. Unless he returns in two days and wins 8, which, of course, won't happen.

Edited November 19, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Dejimasama 0]

he definately has not shown the fighting spirit to dominate consistently.

I have to disagree with this. I could hardly imagine someone questioning his fighting spirit with the injuries he has suffered. None of them have been minor, much like Dejima he has plowed through some of the worse injuries seen in the top ranks in the past years. I just dont understand how his fighting spirit can be questioned with the work ethic he has had in training in order to come back from these injuries.

[Ryukaze 0]

I would certainly hope they would strip him of his Ozeki ranking as he sure hasn't demonstrated that level of sumo for quite a loooong while.

No one "strips" anyone of anything in Sumo. "They" don't work that way. In any case, he has lost his Ozeki rank by going Kyujo, since he is kadoban. This is not guesswork, this is fact. He will no longer be Ozeki for all intents and purposes next Basho. He will start the next basho as Sekiwake. Unless he returns in two days and wins 8, which, of course, won't happen.

Well aware of that brother, my saying "strip" just simply meant I hope he loses his rank of Ozeki (in the which you clarified for me that this will inevitably occur due to his kyujo so...) mucho gracias.

As for fighting spirit I think it can be called into question with anyone in regards to suffering "repeated" injuries. Thats not to say he or dejima have used it as an "excuse" in anyway, but I think (and just my opinion now) it all comes down to desire! Do you wanna play or do you wanna be injured!?. I think if you take a look at the truly greats in any sport even those who have suffered injuries, they have come back, while there are those who simply accept the fact, (maybe having a "low" threshold of pain has someting to do with it..) either way it gets a bit tiring and you begin to "wonder" when a rikishi consistently falls to injuries.(case in point maybe Akebono retiring saying "he could barely walk" and now he has the nerve to compete in K-1 kickboxing one of the most "leg demanding" sports???hmmmm). Either way loose weight, get in better shape, or deal with the pain, do something because whatever it is your doing now "Isn't working"!!! who was it that said "Foolish is the man who does the same thing every day and expects different results"?....As a side not I also do not agree with the kyokai's rule of allowing an immediately demoted Ozeki his rank back with simply a winning record the next tournament, if your demoted you should have to earn it all over again. Just my 4.20$ as always tho! lol- Ryu

Edited November 19, 2004 by Ryukaze

[Asashosakari 20,243]

As a side not I also do not agree with the kyokai's rule of allowing an immediately demoted Ozeki his rank back with simply a winning record the next tournament, if your demoted you should have to earn it all over again. Just my 4.20$ as always tho! lol- Ryu

FWIW, it's not any winning record; he needs at least 10 wins next basho.

[Iwagakki 0]

I'd say that any one of the injuries that Tochiazuma has suffered, would be categorized as "career ending" for an athlete in, say, the NFL. Thrashed knee? Career over. Broken shoulder blade? Over. Thrashed other knee? Over, and done with. Broken shoulder, again? Forget about it...

Same goes for someone like Kaio. Imagine if Barry Bonds had an exploded disc in his lower back. Where would he be? On the bench for at least a couple years. Probably retired. And the ball he is swinging at doesn't weigh 175 kilograms. how about if he had a major bicep tear like Kaio did? Game over.

No fighting spirit my ass. These guys are so tough, and so full of spirit, that no other athlete can compare in that department. Just because it looks easy on TV, as an armchair Yokozuna, doesn't mean a thing. Even the guys at the bottom of the banzuke have infinitely more fighting spirit than the ridiculous, played up, puro resu/k-1 expectations or $252 million superstar athletes ideas about "spirit" that gets foisted off on us as real.

[Dejimasama 0]

Ryu not all injuries are a point of just simply willing to not be injured anymore. Many a great have had thier careers cut short long before they were done in every sport. The spirit is willing but the body is not. Tochi in particular was running several miles everyday after his last injury to come back from it. He ran stairs and hit the weights vigorously. You will be hard pressed to find many in the sport willing to do that. Honestly I dont really question anyone's fighting spirit in the top ranks, one cant suceed on talent alone.

To qoute the Hagakure

"Having just wisdom and talent is the lowest tier of usefullness."

Edited November 20, 2004 by Dejimasama

[paolo 0]

There is something I do not have any idea about. Can somebody answer? The question is: it is apparent that Tochiazuma needs a long time to recover (broken

bone in his shoulder, something very wrong with his knee). He will be demoted to Sekiwake, ok. But what happens next ? I mean: is he allowed not to take part

in bashos until he is physically all right ? How long/how many bashos can he stay away ? will he be demoted to maegashira in the meantime, or will he even have to start from juryo level, or what? can he be forced to retire ?

Thanks in advance......

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

There is something I do not have any idea about. Can somebody answer? The question is: it is apparent that Tochiazuma needs a long time to recover (broken

bone in his shoulder, something very wrong with his knee). He will be demoted to Sekiwake, ok. But what happens next ? I mean: is he allowed not to take part

in bashos until he is physically all right ? How long/how many bashos can he stay away ? will he be demoted to maegashira in the meantime, or will he even have to start from juryo level, or what? can he be forced to retire ?

Thanks in advance......

As for what will happen if he stays away, I copy an earlier post in this thread for estimates of where he will be ranked if not competing:

These are purely estimates.

Hatsu: Sekiwake

Haru: Mid-Makunouchi (M05-M10)

Natsu: Upper Juryo (J01-J06)

Nagoya: Bottom Juryo or more likely upper Makushita (J13-Ms05)

Aki: Mid-to Lower Makushita

As for being forced to retire, depending on what you mean by being forced, he can probably technically not be forced, but he is definitely expected to retire at the very least if demoted to Juryo. Former Ozeki DO NOT get demoted to Juryo (which he will be at the very latest in Nagoya next year, probably in Natsu), is the atmosphere in which he lives, and Daiju who did get demoted to Juryo and did one basho there almost 30 years ago is still considered an example of how not to do for a former Ozeki...

Edited November 20, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Asashosakari 20,243]

The Kyokai has been relatively lenient on their 0-0-15 demotions of late, and I suspect they'll be even more so in Tochiazuma's case, so if he really needs to stay away for several basho I wouldn't be surprised to see his demotion go something like: S -> M06 -> somewhere at the bottom of Makuuchi.

Considering the leeway they have with the banzuke-making, I really don't see them dropping him to the very top of Juryo in Natsu just because they can. Besides, an ex-Ozeki is still an audience draw, particularly if he can be expected to fight back to (near) the top again.

[Jonosuke 28]

I thought I put in my two cents here but after re-reading everyone's comments here, alll I possibly wanted to say and more were already said.

Well you guys/gals are all wise and knowing. Thanks for all the enlightenment here in another day at SumoForum. :-|

[Phelix 0]

Well, the ward I work with has about half the post-operative cases orthopedic cases mon-fri. As I was working night, and it was a looong night (no trauma, no cardiac at all) I started to discuss sumo with a doctor there. We eventually came to discuss (he

[Iwagakki 0]

I'd have to agree. Like I said before, even one of his injuries would knock most athletes from other sports out of the game. But now they are really starting to pile up, and he doesn't have any time to recover. When I heard about his shoulder a while back, I sort of thought he would need at least a year to heal. That is a tough injury. But there is no way for him to recover now. He just has to keep going out there and re-injuring it, and he never has a chance to perform to his potential. I know that it's a touchy subject, but I wonder if the abolishment of kosho is going to shorten careers at the top. hmmm....maybe that is the idea?

Asa has been fortunately free of serious injuries, but when he does get hurt, he is not going to have the choice to sit out a basho and heal properly. Unlike virtually all of the previous yokozuna. I think a lot of "basho as a yokozuna" records and things of that sort were more or less subsidized by kosho, but Asa is going to get no such help. His career is going to be dramatically shortened because of it.

Tochiazuma is the worst example, (and certainly not the last) of what is wrong with the no kosho rule. He's 28, and should be right at the peak. Instead, he is facing relatively certain retirement. I think it has more to do with the cumulative effect of injuries and not being allowed the time to recover from them.

Remember when he was 23? He was looking to be a great yokozuna, and now he's looking to be a pitiful version of a sekiwake.

NSK has to be realistic and understand that injuries happen, particularly in sumo. Watching Tochiazuma flounder at 50% of his ability isn't going to boost revenue. And in four or five years, watching Asa flounder at 50% of his former glory because he can't rehab his knee in 2 months isn't going to boost revenue either. I'd rather watch a banzuke 3/4 full with guys that are at the top of their sumo than a compulsorily full bansuke with nobody at even 80%.

I'll be sad to see Tochi go. He is very talented, and very driven to succeed, and he has worked harder than anyone. But he's going to go, and soon. Too bad.

[Kintamayama 47,222]

Asa has been fortunately free of serious injuries, but when he does get hurt, he is not going to have the choice to sit out a basho and heal properly. Unlike virtually all of the previous yokozuna. I think a lot of "basho as a yokozuna" records and things of that sort were more or less subsidized by kosho, but Asa is going to get no such help. His career is going to be dramatically shortened because of it.

The abolishing of the kosho rule will not affect the Yokozunae, since it was never meant for them anyhow. Yokozunae will continue to sit out Bashos with injuries with no consequences, except the mumblings of the elders when and if these kyujos become too regular or long, ala Takanohana/Akebono/Musashimaru.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

The abolishing of the kosho rule will not affect the Yokozunae, since it was never meant for them anyhow. Yokozunae will continue to sit out Bashos with injuries with no consequences, except the mumblings of the elders when and if  these kyujos become too regular or long, ala Takanohana/Akebono/Musashimaru.

Because when THEY were young and Yokozunas they NEVER got injured because they trained CONSTANTLY and a broken rib or two was just part of the game...

"And when you tell this to the kids of today. They don't believe it".

"No, that's true.."

(mumbling agreement from everyone)

;-)

Edited November 20, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Iwagakki 0]

So, if Kaio makes it this time, then he can go to "physical therapy" in the Bahamas for 10-15 months, and let his body recover? Sweet!!! They he could come back in mid 2006 and rough up a few new guys, with a newfound vigor?

[Kintamayama 47,222]

So, if Kaio makes it this time, then he can go to "physical therapy" in the Bahamas for 10-15 months, and let his body recover? Sweet!!! They he could come back in mid 2006 and rough up a few new guys, with a newfound vigor?

In principle, sure.