Asashoryu - Kotonowaka matches

[Lucius Flavonius 0]

I really liked the match between Asashoryu and Kotonowaka. What do you think?

[Mark Buckton 1]

I really liked the match between Asashoryu and Kotonowaka. What do you think?

Yes LF, me too. Sure others agreed.

[Lucius Flavonius 0]

It was interesting to observe Asashoryu to dangle below Kotonowaka trying to avoid falling.

[Mark Buckton 1]

It was interesting to observe Asashoryu to dangle below Kotonowaka trying to avoid falling.

It was wasn't it?

[QttP 0]

It's not the first time they have such a bout. Exactly one year earlier, in Nagoya 2003, the bout between these two ended with both falling down simultaneously, only then they gave it to Kotonowaka, which was an erroneous decision. A rather long mono-ii this time. I'd like to see a slow-mo replay of the bout (not available yet at Dale's).

It's surprising how much trouble Kotonowaka gives Asashoryu. I find it strange that Asashoryu doesn't always opt for oshi-zumo against the big man, which is of course the easy way to defeat him. Sometimes he does that, but sometimes he does not, and it's in such times that Kotonowaka gets an even chance.

[Araiwa 0]

The match is online now. You've got to see this it's an almost impossible move of Asashoryu to stay alive! There shouldn't have been a rematch cause the Yokozuna managed to hang in somehow on Kotowakas belt and Koto touched the ground first. It looked really like Asa is a shaolin who can bend the body to the limit and escape gravity.

Asashoryu just showed that he never gives up whatever happens.

[Kashunowaka 300]

Insightful post on the Sumo Mailing List, by Yuko aka Amanogawa:

No way to tell about the actual shinpan-discussion, but today's two

good commentators moto-Takanonami and Mainoumi stated

very interesting different points of views.  Well, as far as the

slow motion shows,  Asashoryu's body was still in the

air ( using his tremendous muscule strength! ) as he was

being twisted and thrown away, when obviously Kotonowaka

hand was on the clay already.

Takanonami claimed it should be kabai-te, hence Kotonowaka

should win the match because Asashoryu was already dead-end

and had no chance for the next waza any more ( he had "shini-tai" ),

even if his body was apparently in the air.

Mainoumi insisted it should be Asashoryu's win because he was not

only losing but he was enduring,  using his abd and back strong

muscles  ( "I've never seen such bout before...  " ).

So I assume that shinpan were carefully examing those two

viewpoints and concluded that the match should be

tori-naoshi-ed..

[QttP 0]

Insightful post on the Sumo Mailing List, by Yuko aka Amanogawa:

No way to tell about the actual shinpan-discussion, but today's two

good commentators moto-Takanonami and Mainoumi stated

very interesting different points of views.

[Guest Onigashima]

fantastic match

I was excited as the crowd was at what appeared to be a great win by Kotonowaka, but after seeing the replays I am equally amazed at Asa's move.

I find the difference of opinion from the two commentators (in the above post) very interesting. From the delay, it sure looked like the judges were having trouble deciding what to do.

(Whatever above, it is funny...)

[Faustonowaka 130]

According to me, Asashoryu was extremely lucky landig on his right foot following the throw by Kotonowaka. His staying in the air afterwards on the other hand was extremely impressing! Good decision by the umpires by calling it a rematch, altough the public didn't seem to agree, flinging cushions following Asashoryu's win.

[QttP 0]

There's something else I didn't mention, but I think is worth mentioning. The kabai-te rule is apparently based not only on the dead-body situation of the defender, but also on the cause of the attacker putting his hand down. I believe one of the ideas behind it is that the attacker is allowed to touch down, if he does it to avoid falling on top of the other wrestler. Was this the case here? Or did Kotonowaka simply fail to control his left arm? It's another thing that's impossible to understand, especially since he wasn't exactly over Asashoryu. I don't think Koto himself can really know what made him put his hand down when he did, because we often can't understand the exact causes to our reflexes.

[wanchanyama 0]

I'd have to say that Asashoryu should have won the first one after watching the second reply (Thanks to Dale's site).

This is based on the fact that Asa is off the ground till no only Koto's first hand, but also his right hand and knee before Asa's back touches down.

You can see Asa looking over the top of his head to make sure that Koto touches before he lets go.

Koto never really excuted the throw well and his lack of balance from the execution when his body was bent over forwards at a great angle and was hopping on his right leg which didn't allow him to control is actions post throwing Asa.

Just wondering what the kimarite would have been had Asa won. maybe they would have needed to invent a new one.

[Araiwa 0]

Just wondering what the kimarite would have been had Asa won. maybe they would have needed to invent a new one

I'd say some kind of Izori, maybe Tasukizori.

[Zuikakuyama 1]

Slightly off topic, but in addition to reminding me of their previous match that Qttp mentioned, this acrobatic move also reminded me of another match about 2-3 years ago where a rikishi (who I can't now recall because of my senile state), executed a split to avoid a loss.

Can one of you younger fellas tell me what match that was?

[Tadanisakari 0]

This dead-body rule is very problematic, because it's impossible to apply it objectively. Was Asashoryu struggling, or was he just hanging from Kotonowaka's belt by the power of inertia? It's impossible to tell, and that is exactly what determines whether it's a dead-body or not.

Could someone explain to this relatively new fan of sumo what the dead-body rule means? Are there any other conditions (other than hansoku-make) that could cause a rikishi to win even though he first touched outside the tawara or on the clay below him?

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Shoryu certainly showed a new trick today. Kotonowaka was undoubtedly as surprised as anyone that Shoryu tried (and turned out successful!) to avoid loss to the last second with that trunk exercise move. Completely dominated by the left uwate which Koto has never gotten before against Shoryu but then the mawashi leverage trick. Heh...I wish Kotonowaka would have seen or even imagined that coming and then could have just dropped his body on top of Shoryu instead of the normal flow of the throw. But since this was out of the blue sky event, Kotonowaka assumed that the throw was enough and didn't lean his body on top of falling Shoryu. Too bad but such is life with this Mongolian "never say die"-rikishi.

On a positive note, Kotonowaka showed once again that his evident fatique or lack of spirit in this basho so far could be turned into a two good bouts against Shoryu with plenty of vigour. He is still the machine.

who I can't now recall because of my senile state), executed a split to avoid a loss.

Perhaps Tsuumi against Nami? Then again Tsuumi lost that bout and injured his thigh flexor in that process. Akinoshima has done splits too in attempts to avoid a loss and in 1997 or so Kyokushuzan made almost full split (not touching the dohyo obviously) against Takanohana and then continued the bout to the shock of the world before losing to the baffled yokozuna.

[Naifuzan 1]

Wow, Shoryu never seems to cease to amaze. Good bout by Kotonowaka too, but what a spectacular finish.

Reminded me of the bout in Nagoya 2003, as QttP pointed out. That one went to Kotonowaka and this one torinaoshi, but shoryu won both (Whatever above, it is funny...)

[Naifuzan 1]

I noticed another thing... I think the result of the first bout would have been the same wether kotonowaka would have touched his hand down or not.

It looked like his knee was gonna touch down before Shoryu anyway.

[QttP 0]

Wow, Shoryu never seems to cease to amaze. Good bout by Kotonowaka too, but what a spectacular finish.

That is true.

However, as a Chiyotaikai fan, I can't help to feel bitter that whenever Taikai shows his ballet-dance ability at the edge everyone screams "bad sumo, lucky pulldown, etc", but whenever Shoryu does his twitching to escape a loss it's always "great ability, super skills, etc".

[AsaMoe 0]

Interesting fight, as we all agree. Once more, the Yokuzuna surprised all with his strength, technique and fighting spirit.

At first, I thought a win by Asashoryu was obvious (i reasoned similar to wanchanyama).

At a second thought, there is another point to consider. When Asashoryu or others use this trick in the future, their opponent will throw their body onto the defender to

[Kashunowaka 300]

Another take on this match, from the Sumo Mailing List:

I saw a replay of the first match and I think Asashoryu lost the match,

based on the ruling of "shini-tai" or dead body.

If you are on the way going down in a position of no way you can reposition

yourself without holding someone.

For example, when a baby monkey is hanging on his/her mother's belly during

their sumo match, the baby is in "dead body" position and even if his/her

mother touches his/her hand before any part of the baby's body touches the

dirt, the winner should be the mother.

Think about a limbo dancer who could recover from an incredible position of

his/her back almost touching on the ground. That's the limit of if a rikishi

could recover from the position or not, and based on his athletic ability.

At least the feet need to be in the position of balancing the body.

In my opinion, Asashoryu's feet position is not in the position of limbo

dancer before getting up from the lower position under a bar. Asashoryu was

only hanging from Kotonowaka's mawashi and waiting for Kotonowaka touching

his hand on ground. That's in "shini-tai" or "dead body".

This reminded me of a match between Ozeki Takanohana and Yokozuna Kitanofuji

in early 1970's, I believe.

It was a controversial match, but Kitanofuji was given a win. Later, after

Kitanofuji watched a replay, he commented that he himself could not tell if

he actually won the match or not.

Both matches are very interesting match to think about the "shini-tai" rule,

though.

And they will be remembered for a long time to come.

Toshiyori Masumiriki

[Yangnomazuma 79]

Whether it was a correct call or not, this is a prime example to those out there who say practicioners of Sumo are nothing but fat men in diapers. How many heavy men outside the world of Sumo could execute a bridge in that manner. That took incredible athleticism...the kind of athleticism that most people out there would be very surprised to see of a man that size.

[Naifuzan 1]

Whether it was a correct call or not

I think this debate is proof that it in fact was a correct call. Many different views and opinions, so a torinaoshi was probably the best way to go.

Also I would like to comment on QttP...

However, as a Chiyotaikai fan, I can't help to feel bitter that whenever Taikai shows his ballet-dance ability at the edge everyone screams "bad sumo, lucky pulldown, etc", but whenever Shoryu does his twitching to escape a loss it's always "great ability, super skills, etc".

I can certainly see why one would get annoyed by this, but I think the answer might be simple.

I dont think the ones that celebrate shoryu's skill are the same ones that put taikais "ballet" down.

I, for one, dont mind taikais "ballet", but I dont find it very special. At least not special enough to praise it on the sumo forum. Shoryu's maneuver, however, was just that special!

[bennyloh 0]

I noticed another thing... I think the result of the first bout would have been the same wether kotonowaka would have touched his hand down or not.

It looked like his knee was gonna touch down before Shoryu anyway.

You did notice about the knee part. Koto was in a crouching position, Shoryu (body facing upwards) saw and was aware of Koto's left thigh towards his left, I am pretty sure Shoryu gave a push using his left hand to the thigh hopeful that Koto's knee would touch the surface (ground). At the same time towards Shoryu's right he saw Koto's left hand touching the ground first. Never had a chance to see if (hand touching the ground) it was a result of that push on the left thigh.

Edited July 12, 2004 by bennyloh

[bennyloh 0]

It's not the first time they have such a bout. Exactly one year earlier, in Nagoya 2003, the bout between these two ended with both falling down simultaneously, only then they gave it to Kotonowaka, which was an erroneous decision. A rather long mono-ii this time. I'd like to see a slow-mo replay of the bout (not available yet at Dale's).

It's surprising how much trouble Kotonowaka gives Asashoryu. I find it strange that Asashoryu doesn't always opt for oshi-zumo against the big man, which is of course the easy way to defeat him. Sometimes he does that, but sometimes he does not, and it's in such times that Kotonowaka gets an even chance.

Prior to this bout Koto lost all except for the first (He won over Hoku) His losses was because being big he is always a little slow to react and this was the cause of all his defeats because the majority who beats him goes at his side. Shoryu should know this surely, wonder what's up in his mind? Warming up in preparation for the coming big guys, Miyabiyama, Kai-o and some others?