Why injured rikishi don't go for surgery

[_the_mind_ 0]

According to a late announcement on the NSK website, East Maegashira 16 TAMAASUKA (3-4) will withdraw from the tournament as of Day 8.

Right ankle sprain with ligament damage, estimated recovery time three weeks.

can someone tell me how it is that in sports like the NFL, legiment damage (especially in the knee) generally means you are done for the year, requires surgery and months of rehab, but in sumo it tends to be only a few weeks? and rarely requires surgery

is it the degree of injuries being significanly different between the sports? or do rikishi just fight through the pain while likely needing surgey that the kyokai wont allow them to miss time without a huge demotion?

[Raishu 208]

or do rikishi just fight through the pain while likely needing surgey that the kyokai wont allow them to miss time without a huge demotion?

THIS!

There are so many rikishi who share Tamaasuka's fate from the top of Makuuchi to the bottom of Juryo.

Regarding wrecked knees Kotooshu, Baruto, Aminishiki, Sakaizawa, Kiyoseumi, and Chiyohakuho come to my mind.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Raishu

[Flohru 176]

or do rikishi just fight through the pain while likely needing surgey that the kyokai wont allow them to miss time without a huge demotion?

THIS!

There are so many rikishi who share Tamaasuka's fate from the top of Makuuchi to the bottom of Juryo.

Regarding wrecked knees Kotooshu, Baruto, Aminishiki, Sakaizawa, Kiyoseumi, and Chiyohakuho come to my mind.

I don't think that's entirely the fault of the kyokai though. As mentioned especially those knee injuries would often take 8-12 months to heal completely (or even more for 150+-kilo guys I don't know) and you can't expect them to introduce kind of a kosho system that allows you to stay sekitori without fighting a whole year.

I rather don't understand the rikishi (especially the younger ones affected) and their oyakata. Why not take a year off to heal completely, drop to Jonidan or wherever, get some lower division yusho and come back to Makuuchi/Juryo healthy. If you look at Sakaizawa or Kiyoseumi, they probably wasted their careers with their decision to keep fighting and barely hang on in Juryo all the time. They would easily be Makuuchi regulars with healthy knees...

[Asashosakari 19,669]

I rather don't understand the rikishi (especially the younger ones affected) and their oyakata. Why not take a year off to heal completely, drop to Jonidan or wherever, get some lower division yusho and come back to Makuuchi/Juryo healthy. If you look at Sakaizawa or Kiyoseumi, they probably wasted their careers with their decision to keep fighting and barely hang on in Juryo all the time. They would easily be Makuuchi regulars with healthy knees...

My guess is that the perception of many rikishi simply equates every Takamisakari and Wakanosato (got surgery and came back perfectly healthy) with every Baruto and Aminishiki (languished around for a year or even several, then eventually got healthy enough somehow to be even better than before) and blanks out all the cases of guys who never got beyond the languishing part again ("that's just sumo"), while being all too aware of the 1 athlete in 100 who got wrecked altogether by an unsuccessful surgery. And if not getting the surgery is as good as getting it, why "waste" time being laid up and not even getting paid?

I wonder if Kiyoseumi won't eventually get surgery anyway - he's been doing the same routine for close to two years now, and it's crucially dependent on there being 15 bouts for him and relatively small rank movements. To paraphrase a certain baseball exec, I strongly suspect "his shit doesn't work in makushita", where you don't have any margin for error and it's awfully easy to finish MK in just 7 bouts and get demoted much further, too. As soon as he drops from juryo and doesn't immediately return, he's virtually guaranteed to pick up a makekoshi at some point and once he's fallen to around Ms10 I don't think he's consistently good and healthy enough to string together the 3+ small KK required to get back to juryo (let alone post a 6-1 or 7-0). In a way, he's the Chiyotaikai of juryo, protected by circumstances and the kindness of others in the same situation, both of which won't exist once he's out of juryo.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Asashosakari

[HenryK 38]

or do rikishi just fight through the pain while likely needing surgey that the kyokai wont allow them to miss time without a huge demotion?

THIS!

There are so many rikishi who share Tamaasuka's fate from the top of Makuuchi to the bottom of Juryo.

Regarding wrecked knees Kotooshu, Baruto, Aminishiki, Sakaizawa, Kiyoseumi, and Chiyohakuho come to my mind.

I don't think that's entirely the fault of the kyokai though. As mentioned especially those knee injuries would often take 8-12 months to heal completely (or even more for 150+-kilo guys I don't know) and you can't expect them to introduce kind of a kosho system that allows you to stay sekitori without fighting a whole year.

I rather don't understand the rikishi (especially the younger ones affected) and their oyakata. Why not take a year off to heal completely, drop to Jonidan or wherever, get some lower division yusho and come back to Makuuchi/Juryo healthy. If you look at Sakaizawa or Kiyoseumi, they probably wasted their careers with their decision to keep fighting and barely hang on in Juryo all the time. They would easily be Makuuchi regulars with healthy knees...

I for my part could picture and would welcome a kosho system in which a sekitori could take of a full year once or twice in this career and come back with a decent banzuke rank. With adequate penalty, of course, but without falling back all the way to Jonidan. A sanyaku-ranked rikishi could re-enter near the bottom of Makuuchi, for example, M1-M8 would fall to Juryo, M9-J14 would get a spot somewhere in Mk.

Edited November 22, 2009 by HenryK

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

I for my part could picture and would welcome a kosho system in which a sekitori could take of a full year once or twice in this career and come back with a decent banzuke rank. With adequate penalty, of course, but without falling back all the way to Jonidan. A sanyaku-ranked rikishi could re-enter near the bottom of Makuuchi, for example, M1-M8 would fall to Juryo, M9-J14 would get a spot somewhere in Mk.

That is a very nice idea. If you can place the best amateurs directly in Makushita, then why should it be so hard to reintroduce ANY sekitori who has to get surgery to at least ms15, ms30 or some such?

[Asashosakari 19,669]

Other than the year lost to rehab itself, I don't think they're worried so much about the three or four additional tournaments it might take them to get back from jonidan to makushita, but about failing to grind their way through the high makushita ranks again. Just ask Towanoyama. (Who admittedly was already approaching the wrong side of the age curve when he tore his tendons so he was a longer shot than other would-be surgery candidates.)

[Flohru 176]

I for my part could picture and would welcome a kosho system in which a sekitori could take of a full year once or twice in this career and come back with a decent banzuke rank. With adequate penalty, of course, but without falling back all the way to Jonidan. A sanyaku-ranked rikishi could re-enter near the bottom of Makuuchi, for example, M1-M8 would fall to Juryo, M9-J14 would get a spot somewhere in Mk.

That is a very nice idea. If you can place the best amateurs directly in Makushita, then why should it be so hard to reintroduce ANY sekitori who has to get surgery to at least ms15, ms30 or some such?

Well one problem is the vagueness of the suggestion. What exactly is needed to get that special treatment - just one basho as sekitori, 5 or 10? What kind of injury etc. etc.

The main problem however is the banzuke log-jam that rule could or rather would create, regardless if you just leave the affected rikishi on the banzuke or if you bring them back at whatever rank when they are healthy again. I don't think you would do young, upcoming rikishi a favor if you give every sekitori with a serious injury the chance to remain sekitori or stay at least in high makushita.

[HenryK 38]

I for my part could picture and would welcome a kosho system in which a sekitori could take of a full year once or twice in this career and come back with a decent banzuke rank. With adequate penalty, of course, but without falling back all the way to Jonidan. A sanyaku-ranked rikishi could re-enter near the bottom of Makuuchi, for example, M1-M8 would fall to Juryo, M9-J14 would get a spot somewhere in Mk.

That is a very nice idea. If you can place the best amateurs directly in Makushita, then why should it be so hard to reintroduce ANY sekitori who has to get surgery to at least ms15, ms30 or some such?

Well one problem is the vagueness of the suggestion. What exactly is needed to get that special treatment - just one basho as sekitori, 5 or 10? What kind of injury etc. etc.

To be refined, of course. But the natural reference point would the the rank the rikishi held when he got his injury. The injury would also not need to be specified, the sekitori (or his beya) would simply notify the kyokai. In pratice, as long as the penalty is as severe as sketched here, no sektori would have an incentive to use this option unless he is forced to sit out at least two condsecutive bashos.

The main problem however is the banzuke log-jam that rule could or rather would create, regardless if you just leave the affected rikishi on the banzuke or if you bring them back at whatever rank when they are healthy again. I don't think you would do young, upcoming rikishi a favor if you give every sekitori with a serious injury the chance to remain sekitori or stay at least in high makushita.

Well the log-jam and young-rikishi arguments can easily be exaggerated imo. As long as the penalty is sufficiently severe I don't see this as much of an issue at all. After all, this is not about granting tired rikishi a free vacation, but about giving severly inured sekitori the opportunity to heal their injuries and then re-enter healthily some 30-60 ranks lower. How many sekitori would use this is everybody's guess, but I find it hard to picture that it would be more than a couple per basho. For such numbers it should hardly be prohibitively difficult to find slots without messing up the banzuke.

Edited November 23, 2009 by HenryK

[_the_mind_ 0]

Taking time off every time you get hurt wouldn't give you much of a career.

i think this slightly exaggerates the point, which wasnt to take off a year every time you get a bruise. but that there should be an option if you blow your knee out instead of just retirement or attempting to fight through it when you need some kind of reconstructive surgery. similar to your broken arm, i wouldnt have called that "every time you get hurt" but something major enough that you should not fight through it, but might try to do it prematurely if you had no other option and the doctors said all you need is 6 weeks of rest. (however legiments dont heal on their own like bones do so the example isnt the best but the point is still valid)

with the knee issues specifically it seems like if you tear one of the more necessary tendons, if you dont get surgery and attempt to keep fighting through it that you are infact putting more strain on the rest of the join and making it more likely to do further damage and eventually get to the point where you simply have to have surgery but at that point you need a whole knee reconstruction, which could mean you never fight again. where as getting it fixed initially might have cost you some time fighting but you could actually come back from it, rather then the degeneration of ignoring it costing someone their career.

[Gusoyama 104]

I think there should be a "surgery clause" where if a rikishi needs surgery, they can take up to 6 months off with no penalty, but also with no pay. When they come back, they must announce their return 1 basho in advance, to make room for them in the banzuke at their old rank. In the mean time, they have a "non-rank", or are even possibly banzuke-gai. This would only be the case for surgery issues, and no other injury.

Plenty of athletes in other sports have had injuries, been out a year, and come back as good or even better than before, given some time. "Suck it up and deal with the pain" is not the answer. It leads to bad sumo, and bad career choices.

[kawika 123]

I for my part could picture and would welcome a kosho system in which a sekitori could take of a full year once or twice in this career and come back with a decent banzuke rank. With adequate penalty, of course, but without falling back all the way to Jonidan. A sanyaku-ranked rikishi could re-enter near the bottom of Makuuchi, for example, M1-M8 would fall to Juryo, M9-J14 would get a spot somewhere in Mk.

I don't know, it seems that the top part of Makushita is jammed up and IMHO it is the most challeging part of be a wrestler, breaking into Juryo, so if we were to drop these M9-J14 down into MK, it may not be fair for those boys at that level.

[tsunamiko 4]

well probably it's losing all the priviledges they have plus making no more money....

a married sekitory dropping below juryo would find it hard to make enough money to support his wife and children, not to mention that he would have to stay inside the heya and be a tsukebito again, instead of being with his family in his spare time and having a tsukebito...