New recruits

[Kintamayama 47,170]

11 new recruits have passed the first entry tests today, including the Man From Kazakhstan and the Chinese Takamisakari.

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

Do they have shikona at this point or not yet?

[Hashira 0]

  11 new recruits have passed the first entry tests today, including the Man From Kazakhstan and the Chinese Takamisakari.

why do you call him chinese takamisakari?

the company that made sakke has started a new factory in china, like all the other japanese companies?

[Mark Buckton 1]

why do you call him chinese takamisakari?

Fuku-san,

up close his expression is exactly like that of Sakari. Somewhat befuddled and deer in the headlight(ish).

Will probably fill out in much the same way too.

ANR

[Kintamayama 47,170]

why do you call him chinese takamisakari?

the company that made sakke has started a new factory in china, like all the other japanese companies?

Joint venture.

[Kintamayama 47,170]

Do they have shikona at this point or not yet?

They probably do, but most are not published till they get on the Banzuke. The Man from Kazakhstan's I don't know, but the Chinese Takamisakari will be called Kouseikyou , or like everyone else will be writing this, Kosekyo.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Do they have shikona at this point or not yet?

They probably do, but most are not published till they get on the Banzuke. The Man from Kazakhstan's I don't know, but the Chinese Takamisakari will be called Kouseikyou , or like everyone else will be writing this, Kosekyo.

Or maybe K

[Mark Buckton 1]

At the very bottom of this banzuke - and I mean bottom (glasses plus magnigying glass then headache from eyestrain) there is a Chinese man listed.

Problem is that neither I (of course) nor a Japanese native speaker can make out the name. First Kanji - no idea. Second - old kanji for 'county'and third means 'coming / to come from'.

So, looks like this guy at least is - ........country, from. Or something similar and may actually be the SAME aforementioned Chinese national. Name confusion notwithstanding.

I say this because speaking to some Azumazeki rikishi after keiko about a month ago they mentioned the young lad (17 or 18?) would be on November's banzuke - his first.

((But don't some names sound much better in Japanese - ask poor old Tochiazuma on this one. (East Horse Chestnut))

On the subject of this lad though - having watched him he is built like Takamisakari but I think Sakari is about 188ishcm wheras this lad is a bit shorter.

Same body though but his main weakness thus far has been an inability to 'get low' off the tachiai. Exposes his belt a lot and opponents can put him off balance by pushing 'up' on his chest / diaphragm. Still, he's better than me and has a lot of learning to do - good luck to him.

One thing his presence may also mean is that other prospective entrants who are non-Japanese may well find the doors on a 'foreigner friendly' stable blocked now Azumazeki has its quota.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Also on the new recruits to watch is this lad -

[Asashosakari 20,213]

One thing his presence may also mean is that other prospective entrants who are non-Japanese may well find the doors on a 'foreigner friendly' stable blocked now Azumazeki has its quota.

I was under the impression that the limit per stable was two...?

[Mark Buckton 1]

One thing his presence may also mean is that other prospective entrants who are non-Japanese may well find the doors on a 'foreigner friendly' stable blocked now Azumazeki has its quota.

I was under the impression that the limit per stable was two...?

Asa-san,

I think this was covered here a while ago and was said to have been reduced to one early on this year with a fixed number of total foreigners too. (think that was 40) Stables with more than one at the time though could keep them.

Anyone with a better memory than me confirm this?

[Kintamayama 47,170]

Currently, it's one per stable. no other limits. There are 53 at the moment, and the two newbies will bring it to a grand total 0f 55, so there is no 40 -guy limit in place at present.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Currently, it's one per stable. no other limits. There are 53 at the moment, and the two newbies will bring it to a grand total 0f 55, so there is no 40 -guy limit in place at present.

Thanks for clarifying that Kinta-san,

I know at the start of this year there were 51 non-Japanese from 11 nations within the grand total of 696 registered by the association.

Trivia but someone may find it of interest.

Actually the number of Mongolians was more than every prefecture bar 4 (including the 'factory' that is Aomori) and only one (Tottori) has no current rikishi.

Things to chew over.

ANR

[Asashosakari 20,213]

Looks like I'd managed to completely forget about that change; thanks to both of you for helping me sort that out. (Clapping wildly...)

Does anyone know whether the Kyokai counts naturalized rikishi like Maru (and soon I guess Kyokutenho) against their heya's quota?

[Kintamayama 47,170]

Does anyone know whether the Kyokai counts naturalized rikishi like Maru (and soon I guess Kyokutenho) against their heya's quota?

I'm pretty sure they don't. Musashigawa have two (!!) foreigners, Musashiryuu (Mongolia, Sandanme east 4) and Minaminoshima (Tonga, son of ex-rikishi Minaminoshima of Tonga, Sandanme west 64).

Michinoku has Hoshitango, a naturalized Argentinian rikishi (only Musashimaru and Hoshitango are currently acknowledged as naturalised) and Hakuba (Mongolia, Makushita west 52).

All these rules, like anything else in Sumo, change every now and then, so I hope I'm up to date.

Edited November 2, 2003 by Kintamayama

[Mark Buckton 1]

Currently, it's one per stable. no other limits. There are 53 at the moment, and the two newbies will bring it to a grand total 0f 55, so there is no 40 -guy limit in place at present.

Kinta-san

when you metioned the piece I have quoted above - something came back to me overnight. About 6 weeks ago I was in the Kokugikan museum and one of their staff gave me a kind of 'intro to sumo' book in English that is given out to non-Japanese visitors to the museum.

After all the domos and saying goodbye I sat to read it - Takanohana was interviewed and said something like the more the merrier and it will strengthen sumo (pity the JFL and JPB groups don't follow suit and even a recent 'Sports for all event' here in Japan means in reality Japanese nationality only and thus made the news) FYI only but certainly flies in the face of my idea on 40 doesn't it?

Where did I get that?

ANR

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

After all the domos and saying goodbye I sat to read it - Takanohana was interviewed and said something like the more the merrier and it will strengthen sumo (pity the JFL and JPB groups don't follow suit and even a recent 'Sports for all event' here in Japan means in reality Japanese nationality only and thus made the news) FYI only but certainly flies in the face of my idea on 40 doesn't it?

Where did I get that?

ANR

The earlier rule, instigated 1994 I think (around that time at least) was that every stable could have 2 foreigners, but that the total amount couldn't be more than 40.

This rule was changed (was it late 2002?) to one rikishi per heya and no set maximum the same basho that the limit of 40 was reached. So you are right about that rule, although it got abolished with the new rules.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Thanks Yubi - at least now I (others perhaps not) feel as though my sanity was not in question.

ANR

[Asashosakari 20,213]

This rule was changed (was it late 2002?) to one rikishi per heya and no set maximum the same basho that the limit of 40 was reached.

Is it too early to start speculating on what they'll do when the current limit is reached? We're at 55 foreigners now, and Moti lists only 16 remaining heya (down to 14 once the two new recruits appear on a banzuke, I suppose) without a foreigner. And retirements won't always free up slots as the retiring rikishi might be in a stable that already has an additional foreign rikishi. So what are we looking at here...another rule revision around early 2005, or will they seriously clamp down and say, "sorry, no more foreign guys allowed in"?

Edited November 3, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton 1]

In a way connected to what Asashosakari said above and the possibility / potential for consideration of a rule change come 2005 - please consider this:

the single most important aspect of Japanese attitudes towards foreign policy (bear with me - it is linked) is what the world thinks of them. This is particularly true with regards to the US and Europe.

To that end, considering the bigger picture of sumo (in whatever form) in the Olympics as some so desire, as well as the nation torn between the socioeconomic necessity of having to invite foreigners at a rate of up to 600,000 per year and the easy to see at street level remaining distrust of things non-Japanese that so many feel as a result of media and right wing political rantings the Kyokai, to retain the attention of the focus they love by having the outside world interested in Japan's cultural / sporting artform that is sumo, cannot impose a ban on the numbers - they cannot.

Word can be twisted and vague comments issued (the limit of 1 per heya) is still said unwritten and unconfirmed officially isn't it? However, the fact remains that in closing the sport to the extent that numerical ceilings will pose, they will all but choke off the new life blood that non-Japanese rikishi bring. (anyone who knows Japan's J-League soccer knows it is awful and that is in part thanks to contract limits and limited numbers of foreigners being allowed - same in baseball where no foreign player has ever had a contract over 1 year and the 'all star games' actually have a limit on how many foreigners each side can field even if they are the best in the nation at that time). Such an attitude in sumo will eventually kill it though not for many years to come.

And so, to the second paragraph of this post - the west (no disrespect to the rest of the world but Japan looks only to the west, if anywhere, when considering such 'foreign policy') would find such an imposition of a number on rikishi unacceptable if they cared (and they do in Olympic voting to intro new sports) and so, if done, in reality it will be unofficial and disguised as administrative advice to stables but advice that will be followed to the letter.

Ironic really when sumo's greatest ever Yokozuna was born in Russia and was LEGALLY NOT Japanese regardless of where the Kyokai say he comes from.

Of course I mean the one and only - Taiho (whose chief rikishi is Russian now is he not?)

ANR

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Ironic really when sumo's greatest ever Yokozuna was born in Russia and was LEGALLY NOT Japanese regardless of where the Kyokai say he comes from.

I've understood Naya Koki was born on the southern part of Karafuto (Sakhalin) which at the time in 1940 was Japanese territory. Few years later at the end of World War II Soviet Union occupied the southern part of the island (along with the Kuriles) forcing Taiho's mother to move southwards (to whichever prefecture she and her son ended).

I've never heard Taiho considered a foreigner in this respect. Are you really sure about his legal status? I've understood that his inherent Japanese nationality was never in doubt and that the fact his father was Ukrainian was kept secret for other reasons.

So, what kyokai says?

[Mark Buckton 1]

Ironic really when sumo's greatest ever Yokozuna was born in Russia and was LEGALLY NOT Japanese regardless of where the Kyokai say he comes from.

I've understood Naya Koki was born on the southern part of Karafuto (Sakhalin) which at the time in 1940 was Japanese territory. Few years later at the end of World War II Soviet Union occupied the southern part of the island (along with the Kuriles) forcing Taiho's mother to move southwards (to whichever prefecture she and her son ended).

I've never heard Taiho considered a foreigner in this respect. Are you really sure about his legal status? I've understood that his inherent Japanese nationality was never in doubt and that the fact his father was Ukrainian was kept secret for other reasons.

So, what kyokai says?

Yuichi-san,

all the points you mentioned I too have heard and they seem pretty well know.

It isn't with regards to birthplace that makes him foreign though - it is his blood and time of birth.

Under Japanese law, nationality could only pass through the male line. So, with a Japanese father - birthplace would have been unimportant. Taiho's dad was, as you said, not Japanese and he could therefore never legally be considered Japanese although as with other famous people this 'law' was overlooked too.

It was changed in 1985 I believe and now nationality can pass though either the mother or father.

ANR

[Mark Buckton 1]

Yuichi-san,

also, when you said this "that the fact his father was Ukrainian was kept secret for other reasons." I thought about it and it was probably for the simple reason that 'purity' is considered best. Mixed parentage gets you the label 'half'

So, even in Japan of 2003 hundreds of thousands of people born here, educated here and brought up here who only speak Japanese are classed as foreigners with no voting rights and must carry an ID card at all times (until recently that included a fingerprint as I am sure Kintamayama may recall).

The reason - they have Korean ancestry. The result - many kids are never told their background to spare them the pain of knowing.

However, for those with parents of two nationalities being Japanese forever isn't a given even if 1985 saw the new law enabling nationality to pass through either parent. At age 20 a person is required by law to choose which he wants.

If they choose the foreign nationality they are then barred from public office, must carry an ID card and also can never vote. None of this mentions the social stigma still so evident either.

And so, for Taiho - or moreso his mother - all these things are perhaps things she wanted to avoid and kept her boy hidden from it. If he didn't know it couldn't hurt him. Don't all our parents protect us so?

And, speculation only, for her was there any shame in such a liaison? In Japan today there could be in some areas so in them days - probably so.

I, for one though see Taiho as what he is - the greatest sumo chappie to grace the ring in the past 100 years at least. A genius of the sport without the attached 'rumors' of Chiyonofuji and, irrespective of birth rites (and wrongs) a legend in his own rite.

Da man!

ANR

[Kintamayama 47,170]

In a way connected to what Asashosakari said above and the possibility / potential for consideration of a rule change come 2005 - please consider this:

the single most important aspect of Japanese attitudes towards foreign policy (bear with me - it is linked) is what the world thinks of them.  This is particularly true with regards to the US and Europe. etc. etc..

Bear in mind there was a time during the mid 1990s where no new foreigners were allowed at all in Sumo. This came in the aftermath of a revolving door where foreigners were coming and going like a .. forget it.. Kyokai got fed up with it and said-NO MORE. Then, they decided to open the doors again, so to speak. The first one in was Kasugaou (Kimu), who entered Sumo in January of 1999, followed by Asashouryuu in March 1999. Then came the 40- foreigner rule, and then, the current rule. One thing is for sure-the "revolving door" has all but stopped. There were a few retirements, but most were of veterans. Among the young recruits, I can remember only 5 who retired after a few basho. Nagai from Peru (16), Kotonomori (19) from Brazil, Kaihakuzan (24) from South Korea (ironically, all three entered Sumo in the same Basho, May 1999..) Kuninofuji (17) from South Korea, and Kagamifuji (15) from the USA. Pretty good numbers for new recruits- 5 years and only 5 retirements, mostly by very young rikishi.

Edited November 3, 2003 by Kintamayama

[Naganoyama 6,024]

Can anyone tell me if Kotonowaka has foreign blood? He has a bit of a Eurasian look.