Shoryu's turn tp punish Sakke + keiko news

[Kaikitsune Makoto 210]

Takamisakari was dumped by Asashoryu with a nasty drop throw. KaioU, Chiyotaikai, Asashoryu, Kotomitsuki and others watched as Shoryu dumped totally spiritless Sakke down with similar kind of throw he did to Hokutoriki in Aki. Sakke screamed in agony and trembled in fear while keiko place otherwise was struck silent by the throw. Shoulder injury is feared. Evidently Shoryu was 8-2 against Sakke if I understood correctly. Defeat probably triggered this overblown throw causing a possibly injury to Sakke. Sakke put ice on shoulder and was in mental shock. Shoryu remained silence. KaioU commented about the incident somehow impliyng that when you don't put effort enough, that can happen.

Chiyotaikai was 10-9 against Kotomitsuki, Asasekiryu, Takamisakari and possibly KaioU (can't figure out if KaioU had bouts with Taikai...) and others showing some sluggishness in his oshi. Kokonoe oyakata was angry.

Musashimaru's left side is still weak. Concern is big. Oyakata grey hair.

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/others/kiji/2003/10/31/01.html

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/hochi/sports/oct/o20031030_10.htm

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/others/kiji/2003/10/31/02.html

[Kintamayama 47,193]

This okuritsuriotoshi is now being referred to as the "Asashouryuu Special". It came after he was yorikiried twice by Sakari. It seems to be a light injury, since hospitals were not visited. Sakari was 8-18. He was half crying, half groaning.While holding an icepack to his injured right shoulder, Sakari said: "I've hurt my shoulder in practice before. Any human being who practices too much can be broken. Hospital? Not going. Going to sleep." Still, he looked worried, and if the injury turns out to be more serious than it looks, his famous right hold may be affected. He looked in a state of shock as well.

[Tumppi 0]

Ooh scheisse, das sieht sehr peinlich aus!! (Applauding...)

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

Takamisakari's training habits, results, and accidents are almost enough to make me want to study psychology... What is wrong with him?

[Asashosakari 20,225]

Takamisakari's training habits, results, and accidents are almost enough to make me want to study psychology... What is wrong with him?

I've got a different question - what's wrong with the reporting? (No, not Moti's and Kaikitsune's, I mean the original articles.) Sakari, an occasional komusubi, goes 2-8 against a dominant yokozuna, and people are upset he wasn't putting in enough effort? Did these people expect him to go even against Asashoryu or something?

If I'm not mistaken, another of the articles Moti translated gave Asa's loss total as 2, as well - so everybody else he did keiko with didn't even win one bout against him. I'm definitely puzzled here... :-( (Applauding...)

Edited October 31, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Zenjimoto 40]

Am I the only one who thinks that Sakari's alleged unwillingness to go all out in keiko is precisely geared towards avoiding just that - injuries that put him at a great disadvantage before the basho even starts. Think of that what you will, but I tend to believe it is a smart approach to try and train while reducing injury risk, and to save your best for the competition... :-\

Cheers

Zenjimoto

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Am I the only one who thinks that Sakari's alleged unwillingness to go all out in keiko is precisely geared towards avoiding just that - injuries that put him at a great disadvantage before the basho even starts.

Edited October 31, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Takamisakari's training habits, results, and accidents are almost enough to make me want to study psychology... What is wrong with him?

I've got a different question - what's wrong with the reporting? (No, not Moti's and Kaikitsune's, I mean the original articles.) Sakari, an occasional komusubi, goes 2-8 against a dominant yokozuna, and people are upset he wasn't putting in enough effort? Did these people expect him to go even against Asashoryu or something?

If I'm not mistaken, another of the articles Moti translated gave Asa's loss total as 2, as well - so everybody else he did keiko with didn't even win one bout against him. I'm definitely puzzled here... :-( (Applauding...)

Yes, I very much agree. Media seems to, if anything, to try to make this an even bigger issue than it is. It makes it really difficult to get to learn more precisely what is the view of Takamisakari and his anthics among fellow rikishi and the Kyokai, if the media only tries to find those with the "right" (as in most selling) opinion. :-)

[Tenkashoryu 0]

(Sign of disapproval) Yeah, it's just getting too much of hearing about sakari's feelings and cryings. Wrestling is a tough sport, u gotta be strong emotionally and physically. So come on be a man.

[Manekineko 200]

While I was mostly on 'Shoryu's side through the latest scandals, his behaviour towards Takamisakari is obviously unfitting of any sumo wrestler, especially yokozuna. :-/ If I were Takasago, I'd slap him one on the ear, just to remind him not to behave like a spoiled kid.

OTOH, I'm not a great fan of Takamisakari's excessively wierd behaviour either, but while it may grate on the nerves, it does not dislocate shoulders (or break rear-view mirrors...) :-(

Edit: As Yubi-zeki decided to remove his last post fearing possible inflamatory interpretations, I edited a bit of this post that concerned it. (Clapping wildly...)

Edited November 2, 2003 by Manekineko

[Gaijinohana 0]

Regarding Sakari's 'poor performance' during training. It reminds me of the way that Pete Sampras used to occasionally exaggerate the severity of his injuries and his opponents would then underestimate him in matches. Worked for him. Sakari did too well in the last basho compared to how well he did in training beforehand. To me and Kaio (judging by his bitterness after losing to Sakari) Sakari might just be getting his opponents to let their guard down during tournament time. Or maybe he is working on different techniques in keiko that puts him at a disadvantage, but why would everyone jump to the outrageous conclusions that he is somehow experiencing all of these odd psychological problems just because he does poorly against Yokozuna and Ozekis in training. So he gets a little upset with himself and cries a little. We all know how emotional he is.

Edited November 3, 2003 by mychair

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Regarding Sakari's 'poor performance' during training. It reminds me of the way that Pete Sampras used to occasionally exaggerate the severity of his injuries and his opponents would then underestimate him in matches. Worked for him. Sakari did too well in the last basho compared to how well he did in training beforehand. To me and Kaio (judging by his bitterness after losing to Sakari) Sakari might just be getting his opponents to let their guard down during tournament time. Or maybe he is working on different techniques in keiko that puts him at a disadvantage, but why would everyone jump to the outrageous conclusions that he is somehow experiencing all of these odd psychological problems just because he does poorly against Yokozuna and Ozekis in training. So he gets a little upset with himself and cries a little. We all know how emotional he is.

I don't really understand your point. On the one side you say that thinking he has extraordinary psychological problems is outrageous, while on the other you say it's obvious how emotional he is. I do think that calling it severe psychological problems is a bit over-the-top, but as far as I have understood it's really just his emotional reactions that is discussed. They fit poorly for someone who simply doesn't try or someone who disguises his ability to easier win in hon-basho. They fit very well for someone who is prone to mental blocks and is easily ashamed of himself when "being weak" though.

But of course, from the other side of the world, it's not very easy to make any good conclusions...

[Gaijinohana 0]

I don't really understand your point. On the one side you say that thinking he has extraordinary psychological problems is outrageous, while on the other you say it's obvious how emotional he is. I do think that calling it severe psychological problems is a bit over-the-top, but as far as I have understood it's really just his emotional reactions that is discussed. They fit poorly for someone who simply doesn't try or someone who disguises his ability to easier win in hon-basho. They fit very well for someone who is prone to mental blocks and is easily ashamed of himself when "being weak" though.

Being 'emotional' is not an outrageous psychologial problem. That's exactly the point of my post. I was agreeing with an earlier post of yours where you said that you thought the media exagerrated his reactions. The point that I don't agree with is the 'mental blocks'. It sells Sakari short. I was also giving him the benefit of the doubt and agreeing with Kaio's reactions after losing to Sakari. He seemed to insinuate that Sakari wasn't giving his all in keiko and thus lulling his opponents into underestimating him in hon-basho.

I went to 5 days of the last basho including the day Sakari beat Choker-Kaio and as always it was a joy to see Kaio and Chiyo choke like they always do.

[Zenjimoto 40]

I still say Takamisakari is a much more cunning strategist than anybody gives him credit for. Why show your hand in training? He is doing precisely what makes sense from a strategic point of view, whether you think he is capable of such genius or not. I also believe the reason WHY people are upset with this is partially because of that. They know he is testing them out and saving himself for the real bouts, while at the same time collecting important intelligence, and lulling his opponents into underestimating him, only to come back and WHAM! beat them during the Hon-Basho. Sure, he looks awkward, but don't be fooled like some of his opponents seem to be - give the guy some credit. You're not a college yokozuna for nothing! :-P He just might be the smartest guy out there! :-D

Cheers

Zenjimoto

[Gaijinohana 0]

I still say Takamisakari is a much more cunning strategist than anybody gives him credit for. Why show your hand in training? He is doing precisely what makes sense from a strategic point of view, whether you think he is capable of such genius or not. I also believe the reason WHY people are upset with this is partially because of that. They know he is testing them out and saving himself for the real bouts, while at the same time collecting important intelligence, and lulling his opponents into underestimating him, only to come back and WHAM! beat them during the Hon-Basho. Sure, he looks awkward, but don't be fooled like some of his opponents seem to be - give the guy some credit. You're not a college yokozuna for nothing!  He just might be the smartest guy out there!

I totally agree.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I still say Takamisakari is a much more cunning strategist than anybody gives him credit for. Why show your hand in training? He is doing precisely what makes sense from a strategic point of view, whether you think he is capable of such genius or not. I also believe the reason WHY people are upset with this is partially because of that. They know he is testing them out and saving himself for the real bouts, while at the same time collecting important intelligence, and lulling his opponents into underestimating him, only to come back and WHAM! beat them during the Hon-Basho. Sure, he looks awkward, but don't be fooled like some of his opponents seem to be - give the guy some credit. You're not a college yokozuna for nothing!  He just might be the smartest guy out there!

I totally agree.

Well, it's obvious that I have a completely different veiw than you and Zenjimoto on this, so reasonably I should let it go. I will add two comments though.

First (mainly aimed to Zenjimoto), there seems to me there is a flaw in the argument that Takamisakari does this completely on purpose, and it is his obvious emotional distress. His emotional reactions occur often and strongly and he actually does seem to suffer from them. It seems inconceivable that he could actually continue doing something on purpose that have this effect on him. If he did as much in training as he does in hon-basho, it's likely he wouldn't be as ridiculed as he is and in the end don't get as emotionally distressed, which of course he realizes as much as we do. I know no person who have had emotional distress even a fraction of that Takamisakari exhibits, that hasn't done everything he could to make it go away. At a certain point, it's simplya question of self-preservation.

So why doesn't he just stop? Either he thinks this really gives him an advantage, and that is actually in doubt. He wins many of his matches just because of his strong defense, and this way, not only doesn't his opponents get to try that defense during training, but he doesn't get to train it himself either.

Or his emotional distress is faked. I don't buy that though, much because it isn't something new. Judging from comments of Iwakiyama and others, he has been pretty much like this at least from college. I don't buy that someone could fake emotional distress quite that strongly, and I buy even less they could do it for years and in the plethora of situations Takamisakari does it. That would be faking completely to be another person than you are, and that seems very unlikely, at least in this case.

Then there is the question of why Takamisakari was much worse in training than in real matches already in college, as Iwakiyama also said in comments some basho ago (should be available from the mailing list archive somewhere). There he wouldn't meet the same opponents in important matches as he did in training, so it would be completely useless to do less than he could.

I think the only reasonable explanation of Takamisakari's behaviour is that he simply cannot give as much in training as he does in hon-basho. This is not exactly unusual, so I don't see really what is so difficult to believe in that.

To mychair regarding mental blocks:

Why is this in any way selling Sakari short? Mental block may be a bad word in conveying my meaning, but there's nothing strange in a mental block. I just mean a mental resistance which, over the years for various reasons has develloped into something not readily controllable for the subject. Everyone have mental resistances, from going out with your dog in rain to not jumping off a cliff to death. In some cases those mental resistances develop into a resistance much stronger than the situation seems to warrant, such as when someone refuses to be in the same room as a spider or somesuch. In my experience people who are prone to strong emotional reactions are also more likely to have mental resistances stronger than situations might warrant, although that's not always the case (but it's possible those people are more likely to admit the strong mental resistance). I don't (intellectually) think there is something seriously wrong with someone just because he/she has a mental block, but of course he/she would feel much better if he/she could get rid of it, granted it is a mental block that affects his life situation.

Edited November 4, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Kintamayama 47,193]

My chair, I mean my take on this :

I don't know about college days keiko and all that. I do know this. Takamisakari started to do his "on stage antics" after that serious injury that dropped him all the way to Makushita. He says it helps him overcome the debilitating fear of injuries that he has since he got injured. He works himself into a frenzy. This is no science -fiction voodoo. A lot of athletes do that. Maybe not to such a degree, but it exists . Keiko to Sakari, and a lot of athletes in other sports, does not cause him to go all out, to beat himself into a pulp before every bout. He needs the adrenaline of the real thing ( various training-lazy NBA players come to mind..) What the other rikishi have a beef with, is that this is very "un-rikishi" like. Everyone is supposed to do his best at keiko. Since keiko bouts are between two or more people, when the other guy, it seems, is holding back, he can cause injury to the guy who is going all out. . Then, come Basho time, the guy gets into a virtual phone booth and becomes Robo-cop during the last shikiri. Now, if a usually sedate and looked-up to rikishi like KaioU completely goes gaga after losing to him, his weak keiko enigma must drive everyone bananas. Even Aminishiki commented on it last Basho.

Either way, we can only speculate. I think Sakari is genuinely too naive, nay, even childish, to be so cunning and spin such an elaborate web. This guy actually has spells where he believes he IS a robot!! He has 200 bathrobes which he paid for with robot patterns on them!! Come on..

Well...

Edited November 4, 2003 by Kintamayama

[Kaikitsune Makoto 210]

I agree with Yubi and Kinta.

There would be no significance no matter how much Sakke would "hide" his true sumo because his sumo style is very well known and there is hardly any real surprises in honbasho bouts tactics/technique-wise. I don't think rikishi underestimate him either in honbasho anymore. Everyone knows Sakke can beat anyone and that he is very strong and endurable. Sakke doesn't beat ozeki/yokozuna because they "underestimate" him, he beats them because he is so damn good.

The fear of injury could be the reason for his keiko problems but why go train with guys like Asashoryu (known for his viciousness in keiko), KaioU (who does keiko seriously) and Chiyotaikai whose attacks definitely expose to injury if one is defendlessness and legs get tangled and so. The reason why I am more prone to believe he is also punishing himself (maybe because he hates the way he is in keiko and has these mental blocks Yubi brought up) is the caliber of foes he goes up against. He could well train with Ushiomaru too and get some more wins (although Ushiomaru may well dominate him in keiko too) but he seems to cherish the "lessons". Now it was reported he went 2-1 against jonidan rikishi. Gimme a break....highlights something despite the shoulder and evident giving up in the bout.

All in all Sakke is quite a character. He got visibly angry at reporter who accidentally (or not..) revealed his following day foe which he never wants to know so he can sleep better. Reputation also moulds and since everyone is calling him Robocop, I think he may well be responding to that reputation also consciencely and add some details in his antics etc. McEnroe once said that after a while he grew to the reputation of being the ill-mannered tennis player who bollocked referees and objected the world when things went wrong and that sometimes he didn't really even get that annoyed because of some incident but since he carried the reputation, he went into that mode nevertheless. Maybe Sakke is affected by the Robocop-stuff and does even more robot-like things than he would if he would be just a "strange low maegashira who walks funnily and stares like a low IQ-alien".

[Zenjimoto 40]

I don't think being emotional during keiko and a cunning strategist are exclusive of each other. I try to imagine myself in the sumo world. I am a sensitive guy. Sumo is tough. It hurts, you take a lot of abuse. I am sure I would be capable of emotional outbursts on a regular basis, especially under conditions of extreme fatigue, abuse, pain, EXTREME fear of injury after already suffering one almost career-ending injury before, etc. - at the same time, I could still carry on with my quest of collecting intelligence and "stealth" training for my own purposes, cause ultimately that is what keeps me going - the knowledge that I am gathering valuable experience (even if it freaks me out), and that it will all be worthwhile when I surprise the crap out of these guys on the hon-basho dohyo! :-P

Psychology is a multifaceted beast, never black and white - and I am convinced that Takamisakari is one of the more complex personalities out there. He is an oddball and a walking contradiction. Because of this, I believe it is possible or even likely that he does as I say he does. I could be wrong, but I could be right :-) Besides, I like to take the counterpoint position every once in a while. Just being the adoring Takamisakariphile who thinks he is so odd but so cute is fun and easy, but I am trying to take my personal view of the man a step further with this controversial theory :-P Again, I might be totally wrong. But I really do believe there is a LOT more to this man than meets the eye.

Cheers

Zenjimoto

Edited November 4, 2003 by Zenjimoto

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Besides, I like to take the counterpoint position every once in a while. Just being the adoring Takamisakariphile who thinks he is so odd but so cute is fun and easy

Is there ANYONE in this thread who have had a view of this kind in this matter???

:-P

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

Can rikishi A refuse to keiko with rikishi B because of personal dislike? Or is that considered out of line?

[Zenjimoto 40]

Besides, I like to take the counterpoint position every once in a while.  Just being the adoring Takamisakariphile who thinks he is so odd but so cute is fun and easy

Is there ANYONE in this thread who have had a view of this kind in this matter???

:-P

Did I SAY anyone did? :-)

Cheers

Z.

[Zenjimoto 40]

Here then is proof that my Takamisakari theory might be on to something:

From "Rikishi Talk" posted by Jonosuke:

Miyabiyama (vs Takamisakari)

----------------------------

(Almost talking like Yoda)

"Knowing fully well of my injured left shoulder

slapped me there, he did. Pretending totally oblivious

to all around him but scheming real good, a good real

schemer he is."

Mmmmmmm-hm! >:-(

Cheers

Zenjimoto

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Here then is proof that my Takamisakari theory might be on to something:

From "Rikishi Talk" posted by Jonosuke:

Miyabiyama (vs Takamisakari)

----------------------------

(Almost talking like Yoda)

"Knowing fully well of my injured left shoulder

slapped me there, he did. Pretending totally oblivious

to all around him but scheming real good, a good real

schemer he is." 

Mmmmmmm-hm! (Weeping...)

Cheers

Zenjimoto

Yes. It proves that Miyabiyama MIGHT (again, a matter of interpretation) suspect the same things you suspect. Of course, Miyabiyama comes from a different stable, one which Takamisakari seldom trains at, and also says this in a very ambiguous way, so I wouldn't exactly call it proof of anything :-)

On another note: Whether or not Takamisakari consciously aimed for Miyabiyama's injured shoulder or not, it's not as if it couldn't happen anyway... I mean, this IS sumo, and it's close to impossible not to hit at least one shoulder of your opponent. There are also only two to choose from, so Miyabiyama may well be a bit paranoid... (Sigh...)

Edited November 19, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Gaijinohana 0]

I still agree with Zenjimoto that Sakari is trying to be a little tricky in his tactics. But it's obviously not working very well. He's just upset everyone else that it makes Asa/Kaio et. all just want to fight that much harder against him. I suppose that he has an injury to blame this basho...

Additionally, I have a growing personal anger towards him since he cost me a few points in the Sumo Game and when I think that I am only a point or two from being in first place...then Sakari starts pissin' me off!

On the consiracy theory side - Maybe Kyokai is trying to get a good-cop/bad-cop thing going on to sell some tickets.