Kintamayama 47,189 Posted October 3, 2003 (edited) Kitao (ex-Yokozuna Futahaguro, who left Sumo in shame 16 -odd years ago) is back in the Sumo world consensus after 16 years. He paid a visit to the Kyokai offices on Thursday. He donated his kesho-mawashi from his active days to the Sumo Museum, and seems to have been forgiven. This is the first time he has entered the Kyokai premises since he left Tatsunami beya in December 1987 while still being an active Yokozuna, and came for his retirement a month later in January 1988. He donated the kesho-mawashi (with a portrait of the Ise Shrine) given to him by his Mie koenkai, together with his akeni (bamboo box with his important Sumo related personal belongings). Due to his hasty leaving of the heya, 5 other kesho-mawashis are missing, and they should be a real treasure to whoever has them. The curator of the Sumo Museum, Takasago Oyakata, gave him a letter of thanks for the valuables, and he received a greeting from Kitanoumi Rijicho as well. His was the only kesho mawashi of a former Yokozuna that was not displayed in the museum. Now that Kitao is reconciled with Tatsunami beya and is training the young rikishi there, Rijicho said: " I'd like to encourage him to do the best he can". "I'm elated to be approved by Rijicho", said Kitao, happy to have his honor returned to him after 16 years. In Kyushu, he will start to fulfill his dream: Bringing up a new Yokozuna. Kitao (left) with Takasago Oyakata, akeni in the foreground. Edited October 3, 2003 by Kintamayama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 47,189 Posted October 3, 2003 Kitao and His Amazing Technicolor Mawashi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fujisan 533 Posted October 3, 2003 Who was the oyakata responsible for his demise at the Tatsunami Beya? Just wondered- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted October 3, 2003 (edited) Who was the oyakata responsible for his demise at the Tatsunami Beya?Just wondered- His altercation was with the previous Tatsunami, ex-Annenyama. And yes, that is the man with whom current Tatsunami (ex-Asahiyutaka) has gone several rounds with by now. It's undoubtedly no coincidence that Koji Kitao gets back in the game now, when the affairs surrounding Tatsunami-beya are subsiding... Edited October 3, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted October 3, 2003 Great news! I'm glad to see all involved are mature enough to forgive, make amends, and go on. (In a state of confusion...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tominishiki 0 Posted October 3, 2003 Kitao and His Amazing Technicolor Mawashi what an amazig picture how many yusho he won? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted October 3, 2003 (edited) Great news! I'm glad to see all involved are mature enough to forgive, make amends, and go on. (In a state of confusion...) Eh. I'm pretty certain this does not include "all involved". The biggest part in this (apart from Kitao himself), ex-Annenyama is probably even more reluctant to forgive now that ex-Asahiyutaka brought Kitao back from the cold... (Punk rocker...) Btw Tominishiki. Kitao/Futahaguro never won a yusho. He certainly would have if he hadn't been retired when he was, but he never actually did. (Being mellow...) Edited October 3, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted October 3, 2003 Eh. I'm pretty certain this does not include "all involved". The biggest part in this (apart from Kitao himself), ex-Annenyama Ahh, yes, you're right of course. Annenyama-zeki could perceive this as a slap to his face delivered by the NSK as well as current Tatsunami (ex-Asahiyutaka). Kitao remains the only person to be promoted to yokozuna without winning a single yusho, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chinonofuji 35 Posted October 3, 2003 Kitao remains the only person to be promoted to yokozuna without winning a single yusho, right? Yes. And we will never know if the two-yusho-in-a-row requirement for Yokozuna promotion that came into effect after this was a response to Futahaguro (i.e. never wanting to have such a person promoted again) or if it was done to give them a way to not promote Konishiki. I think it was likely a mix, but they have stuck by the rule since then, so maybe they were just scarred by the whole Futahaguro thing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted October 3, 2003 Kitao remains the only person to be promoted to yokozuna without winning a single yusho, right? Yes. And we will never know if the two-yusho-in-a-row requirement for Yokozuna promotion that came into effect after this was a response to Futahaguro (i.e. never wanting to have such a person promoted again) or if it was done to give them a way to not promote Konishiki. I think it was likely a mix, but they have stuck by the rule since then, so maybe they were just scarred by the whole Futahaguro thing? The actual criteria didn't change, just the interpretation of it. It was quite certainly related to the Futahaguro-incident, but nothing points to it having anything whatsoever to do with Konishiki. Asahifuji was the first rikishi to suffer the new interpretation for Yokozuna promotion. Btw, Kitao was NOT the first yokozuna to get promoted with no yusho, he was just the first yokozuna to retire without one. At least Terukuni had no yusho when promoted to Yokozuna and several more too I think although I can't check it right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 20,225 Posted October 3, 2003 Ahh, yes, you're right of course. Annenyama-zeki could perceive this as a slap to his face delivered by the NSK as well as current Tatsunami (ex-Asahiyutaka). He'll just have to console himself with the money he got out of the new Tatsunami. (Punk rocker...) What was it...something on the order of 200 million yen? Anyway, from what I'd read on the whole thing, I figure it was just as much of a slap in Asahiyutaka's face that the old Tatsunami wanted to give him the heya without actually handing over any of the responsibilities for it, so I for one don't feel much pity for him and how he might feel about Kitao coming back. (In a state of confusion...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zentoryu 154 Posted October 3, 2003 (edited) Kitao remains the only person to be promoted to yokozuna without winning a single yusho, right? Yes. And we will never know if the two-yusho-in-a-row requirement for Yokozuna promotion that came into effect after this was a response to Futahaguro (i.e. never wanting to have such a person promoted again) or if it was done to give them a way to not promote Konishiki. I think it was likely a mix, but they have stuck by the rule since then, so maybe they were just scarred by the whole Futahaguro thing? The actual criteria didn't change, just the interpretation of it. It was quite certainly related to the Futahaguro-incident, but nothing points to it having anything whatsoever to do with Konishiki. Asahifuji was the first rikishi to suffer the new interpretation for Yokozuna promotion. I agree, Asahifuji was the first to have his promotion chances hurt by the new interpretation, not Konishiki. So it's a bit difficult to claim that the rule was changed to keep Konishiki out when Asahifuji went through the same thing he did. The major difference between the two was that Asahifuji eventually went on to win his two Yusho in a row to finally get promoted, whereas Konishiki fell down the banzuke. Edited October 3, 2003 by Zentoryu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted October 5, 2003 (edited) My opinion on the matter is that Konishiki wasn't slighted in the least - he simply never put together two good enough basho in a row. Konishiki won three yusho in all. The first: <pre>1989 Aki 5-10 1989 Kyushu 14-1Y 1990 Hatsu 10-5</pre> This was clearly not good enough for yokozuna promotion. In 1991-1992 he had a better run: <pre>1991 Haru 9-6 1991 Natsu 14-1D (yusho-doten = playoff) 1991 Nagoya 12-3J 1991 Aki 11-4 1991 Kyushu 13-2Y 1992 Hatsu 12-3 (3rd) 1992 Haru 13-2Y 1992 Natsu 9-6</pre> I would think that Konishiki was considered a yokozuna candidate after his 14-1 playoff loss in Natsu basho 1991. 14-1 is almost always good enough to win yusho, and must be reckoned as "yusho equivalent". But in Nagoya basho, Konishiki only managed a 12-3 jun-yusho (the yusho was won with 14-1). Ever since Kashiwado was promoted in 1961 after going 12-3 and losing a playoff against Taiho, no one had been promoted after a 12-3 jun-yusho. Kitao was promoted after 12-3J / 14-1D - a very questionable promotion in itself, but the fact that the results are the other way around makes his case stronger than Konishiki's. I don't think anyone today would want to see an ozeki promoted right after a 12-3 jun-yusho. Onokuni wasn't promoted after 15-0Y / 12-3J in 1987 - it took an extra jun-yusho (13-2) for him to get promoted. In Aki basho 1991, Konishiki went 11-4 and so was back to square one. After yusho in Kyushu 1991, Konishiki was again a tsuna-tori candidate. And again, he went 12-3 - but this time, he was only third after Takahanada and Akebono. Back to square one! A new yusho in Haru basho, and then 9-6 in Natsu. It is possible that Konishiki would have been promoted after Haru basho 1992 had he won just one more bout in Hatsu basho that year. We will never know. Edited December 14, 2004 by Exil Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 20,225 Posted October 5, 2003 (edited) I don't think anyone today would want to see an ozeki promoted right after a 12-3 jun-yusho. Well, having somebody get a 12-3 jun-yusho at all would make for a nice change these days... :-/ And I agree, Konishiki was a good Ozeki (a really good one for that six-basho stretch from Natsu 1991 to Haru 1992, no doubt), but other Ozeki came similarly close to Yokozuna promotion without making it, so singling him out as the one most slighted just doesn't work. Maybe he would have been promoted if he had lived 20 years earlier, maybe not...he just didn't live up to the standards required in his own time, and that's that. At any rate, he declined pretty quickly after that one good year (never again reaching more than 10 wins), so history certainly proved the Kyokai right in not making an exception for him. Edited October 5, 2003 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted October 6, 2003 At any rate, he declined pretty quickly after that one good year (never again reaching more than 10 wins), so history certainly proved the Kyokai right in not making an exception for him. Ahh, but that's beside the point, in my opinion. Not only because it builds on a hypothetical line of reasoning: we cannot know whether Konishiki would have declined as fast had he been promoted. Perhaps he would have been more motivated, and perhaps he could have limited his incessant injuries by taking a few basho off now and then. The reason why I think it's beside the point is that a promotion can only be based upon what has happened in the past (duh!). How could it be otherwise? (Clapping wildly...) There will always be yokozuna and ozeki who fail to live up to standards. That doesn't mean that promoting them was wrong. Recent examples: yokozuna Wakanohana and ozeki Miyabiyama. They did what they had to do to get promoted, got promoted, failed to live up to the requirements of the rank and retired/was demoted. Was it wrong to promote them? No. There are also examples of those who only just meet the criteria, get promoted and then turn out just fine. Chiyotaikai's ozeki promotion was a borderline case. After a disastrous start, he has grown into a very good ozeki. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 20,225 Posted October 6, 2003 There are also examples of those who only just meet the criteria, get promoted and then turn out just fine. Chiyotaikai's ozeki promotion was a borderline case. After a disastrous start, he has grown into a very good ozeki. Chiyotaikai is pretty much the case I would cite in favour of the existence of "Kyokai discretion". If one were to accept "at least 33 wins in three sanyaku basho for Ozeki promotion" as just as much of a 'hard' rule as "at least two consecutive yusho or equivalent for Yokozuna promotion" (and I would), then Chiyotaikai failed the Ozeki criterion just as much as Konishiki failed the Yokozuna one. You're right that we're talking about strictly hypothetical alternatives here...nobody can say whether or not Konishiki would have been a good Yokozuna, just like nobody knows where Chiyotaikai might be today if he hadn't been promoted back then. I shouldn't have said the Kyokai was "proved right" about not making an exception for Konishiki - rather that they probably didn't feel too bad later about not having made that exception. (And arguably they couldn't have made such an exception anyway, after they hadn't promoted Asahifuji either.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted October 8, 2003 So.... Konishiki was a choker? (Applauding...) (Eh?) :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenjimoto 40 Posted October 8, 2003 So.... Konishiki was a choker? (Applauding...) (Blushing...) (I am not worthy...) No, (I am not worthy...) is a choker! :-P Cheers Z. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted October 8, 2003 Can't they both be chokers? After all, on more than one tsunaori basho they failed to win... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
