Asashouryuu injured-keiko news

[philafuji 1]

Joe I don't think 99% of the people here have opposing views to you on much. In fact I'd say that 99% hold similar ones, but 98% are usually silent and the one percent that disagree are very vocal. If you don't have much to say just keep repeatedly shouting it louder seems to be their preferred method of discourse. "Swift boat rikishi for truth" if you will.

I too doubt that Asashoryu can stick it out. I've wanted him to retire since the summer....not over the football but over his reaction to the punishment. Since his return I can honsetly say that I see no change in him at all and if anything he is pushing his luck day by day. Of course not saying hello won't get you kicked out of sumo but he has lost whatever friends he had I think and the first halfway big mistake he makes will mean the end. Thing is though I can't see Takasago handing in retirement papers for his cash cow under any circumstances which means that it's going to take rijicho to step up to the plate (baseball idiom for Johnofuji) or the YDC to publicly call for his retirement. The latter scenario is more likely.

Plus Joe you know if you think it's only proper manners for a yokozuna to call ahead and ask if it's ok for a visit how can the same not be true for a civillian non-rikishi? Uchidate might care a lot about sumo but she is just as lacking in hinkaku as those she regularly criticizes.

Nishinoshima,

I had asked eariler in this discussion whether the lady (not just because she is a lady) had to have permission to visit the heya or could she or any other of the members of the board could just walk in with out asking permission.

I received no replies. So would I be right according to your post that any member can go to any heya they want, with no invitation?

Thanks for any reply.i

[paolo 0]

Asashouryuu has made it clear he wishes to spend the New Year holidays in Mongolia. "When I will be asked I will think about it, but my intention is not to allow it..", said Takasago Oyakata. Asa gave the reason he wants to return. "I have promised my children. It is not a selfish thing. I have bought some Disney clothes I would like to give them". The keiko at Takasago ends on the 28th and re-opens on the January 3rd. "I intend to consult the Oyakata and then go on holiday when the heya does and return before the keiko restarts on the 3rd", said Asa. He has been returning to Mongolia these last years at the end of the year, but this year it was pretty obvious he wouldn't be, as he himself said he won't be going.. It turns out nothing is obvious.

"I have a Goofy t-shirt."

Just to know:

1. do all heya close for New Year holidays ?

2. what do the other foreigners do ? do they go home or do they stay ?

(of course the idea behind these question is: is Asashoryu asking for something "normal" or for something "exceptional"?)

Thanks

[Kintamayama 47,236]

Just to know:

1. do all heya close for New Year holidays ?

2. what do the other foreigners do ? do they go home or do they stay ?

(of course the idea behind these question is: is Asashoryu asking for something "normal" or for something "exceptional"?)

Thanks

The exceptional thing is that he is asking.. I don't think any of the foreigners go home for the holidays, because they (the holidays.. ) are just too short. The press is probably into this because everyone associated with the Asa scandal, from Asa himself to Takasago to Kitanoumi, said that there is no remote chance of Asa going back to Mongolia in the near future. Now, it looks like he will be going after all. As for normal, the situation itself is not normal, so who can say?

[Coo-cook 0]

Asa is by no means the perfect yokozuna, and I agree with a lot you are saying, but she's become somewhat obsessed with this in my mind. As you say, she is dragging the other YDC members into her mode of thinking. Asa will "bend" just so much till he eventually snaps. I think she could cut him some slack in these dificult times for him-let himbreathe for a few months, get his act together, and then see what's what./

The idea of Uchidate cutting Asashoryu more slack is really 'out there,' especially when it appears she's winning. The way things are lining up right now, reminds me of something I posted back on September 4th in the 'Asa in hot water, thread 2.' I won't repeat the entire post, but this was the last part:

Asashoryu correctly recognized that life isn't fair for the foreign rikishi. He incorrectly thought he could overcome the 'injustice' in an unconventional way. As for his future, whether he's right or wrong or depressed or cunning is really not relevant because the people who run ozumo will change only when they are convinced the Japanese people want them to, and that will take a long long long time. The bottom line is that regardless of how it ends, his future in ozumo can be measured in days or weeks or months, not years.

I still believe this - that Asashoryu's days in Ozumo are numbered - primarily because he won't be able to come onto the dohyo anymore with the same 'stick it' attitude that he's used to motivate himself in the past. They just won't let him, and he can't (or won't) change, as Jonosuke has accurately pointed out. And without that special motivation, he won't be able to post enough wins to retain his rank. There are too many things working against him, in addition to just trying to get himself back into top physical form. It would take a superman to handle all of this, and as good as he has been, he's never been Superman.

If he could (and would) change his ways, it would be wonderful for sumo, but of course, he won't...and so he's a goner, IMHO.

Agree 100%. Without that rebelious attitude Asa is no more Asa himself.

And, maybe it's the only way he can remain "winner" is to quit sumo..... sooner the better.

He went to Japan to become a sumo wrestler.... and to sell his soul or become a shinto follower wasn't in his agenda, I believe.

I respect the Asian cultures, but, it was always this distaste of mine (and many Mongolians) for the Asian (or Confucian?) values (like that Master and Schooler thing, ...fake apologize, fake subordination)...

Not only Asa, ....some Russians and Hawains have ( had) trouble following Japanese rules and behaviors.... and I can understand them.

Of course, low rankers have much easier "schedule"....and Hakuho and Musashimaru have tolerating this with various reasons, I guess.

[yoda 0]

I agree with Coo-Cook. Asashoryu is such a bright and unique Yokozuna and will be remembered, rather than hated, for a long time.

I think, those who beleive that a hungry bully from Ulaanbaatar streets come to Ozumo to earn some bucks are showing their disrespect to different cultures and people. I have an impression from my Mongolian friends that ordinary people, especially those who are hungry, never become wrestlers in Mongolia. Wrestlers in Mongolia are like living gods and they never have to worry about money, not alone go hungry. But they are thirsty for power and domination.

Asashoryu was neither accident nor luck. He wasn't accidentally picked by some scout from Japan. He was groomed and prepared to be a wrestler, be it mongolian, Judo, or free style. He was up to something when he came to Japan. People may hate him for his misconduct, but they can't hide from his majestic sumo.

I hope, Asashoryu will at least get few more Yousho before he goes on to his next adventure.

[Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj 0]

Asashoryu was neither accident nor luck. He wasn't accidentally picked by some scout from Japan. He was groomed and prepared to be a wrestler, be it mongolian, Judo, or free style. He was up to something when he came to Japan.

True that he was up to something. Grand Champion of Mongolian National Wrestling Kh. Bayanmenkh was not happy with decision of Asa becoming sumo wrestler in Japan. There were several interview that Mr Kh. Bayanmenkh said that he was predicting Asa to be future Champion in Mongolia

[Kintamayama 47,236]

Let's review Asashouryuu's keiko so far:

７th- butsugari with under Makushitas-lent his chest twice

８th- rest

９th -butsugari and then 16 bouts with Makushita and under

１０th- 9 bouts with Makuuchi Asasekiryuu, denied keiko at Tomozuna-beya　　　　　

１１th- Kasugano degeiko, 14 bouts with sekitori

１２th- rest

１３th- butsugari -new committee comes to watch keiko

１４th- Kasugano degeiko-13 bouts with sekitori

１５th～２１th- rest

２２th- Makuuchi Asasekiryuu -20 bouts

２３th- Kasugano degeiko- 10 bouts with sekitori

２４th- rest

Edited December 24, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Shomishuu 0]

He went to Japan to become a sumo wrestler.... and to sell his soul or become a shinto follower wasn't in his agenda, I believe.

'Selling one's soul' and 'becoming a shinto follower' are extreme characterizations, but even if one bought into them, one still must deal with the reality that they are part of the deal when one goes to Japan to join ozumo. Those dictums have always been part of the agenda, and everyone understands that when they go. As for the fans, anyone who says they like sumo must like what they are watching or they wouldn't claim to like it. And when you watch sumo, you are seeing the manifestation of these values that so many like to bash. Sumo as we know it would not have survived without them and would look like something else. It's easy to be critical of 'wrong-headed' thinking by the NSK buffoons, and sure, I can pick things apart myself very easily. But it must be accepted that ozumo got to where it is because of the thinking of these buffoons and those buffoons that came before them. They must have been doing something right or we wouldn't be so addicted to it.

I can guarantee that without the 'Master and Schooler'...fake apology, fake subordination, and other cultural aspects of sumo, it wouldn't look anything like the sumo we see today, and that most of the regulars on this Forum would have never become fans to begin with. I can also guarantee that there are aspects of my own and other cultures that are more distasteful than 'Master and Schooler,' et al.

So take a good look at everything that goes on when you see sumo. Do you like what you see? If you don't, how can you call yourself a fan? If you do, then give some credit to the 'buffoons' that made it look that way. They've never been, and still aren't perfect, but they are the creators of the spectacle we love to watch.

[Jakusotsu 6,394]

So take a good look at everything that goes on when you see sumo. Do you like what you see? If you don't, how can you call yourself a fan?

As we discovered already, there are fans of sumo, and there are fans of Asashoryu. Not everybody around here is both (although some prominent members are, of course).

[yoda 0]

No need for very enlightening count of Asa's keiko Kintamayama. As I stated in the earlier post of mine, the 2 basho ban has effectively sealed Asa's retirement. He will be ashamed if he slips even one bout, will be hated for faking his numerous injuries if he goes zensho. The trap is there in any case. On top of this, he will be watched for his every single move, including his basic reflections such as eyelid movements, and facial muscle twitching. He can't win convincingly, that would amount to a barbaric non-sumoish, un-civilized behavour. He can't win easy, because that would be ignoring of Japanese fans' high expectations, and will amount to a yacho.

[Asashosakari 20,253]

But it must be accepted that ozumo got to where it is because of the thinking of these buffoons and those buffoons that came before them. They must have been doing something right or we wouldn't be so addicted to it.

And, arguably, sumo has changed quite a bit over the decades (well, centuries). Quite obviously some fans want sumo to be more like a professional martial arts league of some kind, with strictly defined rules and procedures. What's frequently overlooked is just how far sumo has come from its roots, when it was pretty much the 19th-century equivalent of pro-wrestling or the circus, with results playing very little role in a rikishi's ranking over the years, and giant child rikishi performing dohyo-iri as a special attraction. I don't think anyone wants a return to those days, as entertaining as it might have been. Contemporary sumo tries to strike a delicate balance between entertainment, sport and tradition, and as much as there may be to criticize, let's acknowledge that it's probably pretty hard to do that over the long run.

And let's not forget that sumo was considered hopelessly outmoded around 1868 as well (perhaps a good comparison to today as far as the speed of change in society goes)...it bounced back then, and it had to bounce back several more times since. I'd almost say it's a defining characteristic of sumo that it's always this close to being outdated. Newer fans invariably act like the current problems are the biggest that sumo has ever faced, and worse, that they're the only problems sumo has ever faced, and that the current administration must be a bunch of doofuses for not getting it fixed already, whatever "fixed" would mean.

Who knows, maybe sumo will get another guy like Takasago-oyakata (the first one, that is; not the current bumbler) who'll push through and institute wholesale reforms in "benevolent dictator" style. I just don't think it's very likely; the Kyokai is a very mature organization at this point in time and those tend to change veeery slowly. In addition, even if sumo isn't exactly healthy right now, it's not doing badly enough (yet) that calls for drastic changes will find a majority. At this point entrenchment and re-emphasis on tradition are much more likely, I think.

Edited December 25, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 47,236]

It's an abort. Asashouryuu was convinced by Takasago Oyakata to abandon his trip to Mongolia. "I'll be going for holidays somewhere in Japan..', said a smiling Asashouryuu. "Reflection on one's deeds is not an easy thing. In order that everyone will understand that he is reflecting, he shouldn't be going to Mongolia at this point. He still does not understand the full meaning of the word "reflection".

"I'm not going. I won't be seeing my children. Why are you all so worked up about this? "asked Asa of the reporters.

The changing of sunlight to moonlight.

Edited December 25, 2007 by Kintamayama

[paolo 0]

Let's review Asashouryuu's keiko so far:

７th- butsugari with under Makushitas-lent his chest twice

８th- rest

９th -butsugari and then 16 bouts with Makushita and under

１０th- 9 bouts with Makuuchi Asasekiryuu, denied keiko at Tomozuna-beya　　　　　

１１th- Kasugano degeiko, 14 bouts with sekitori

１２th- rest

１３th- butsugari -new committee comes to watch keiko

１４th- Kasugano degeiko-13 bouts with sekitori

１５th～２１th- rest

２２th- Makuuchi Asasekiryuu -20 bouts

２３th- Kasugano degeiko- 10 bouts with sekitori

２４th- rest

If I read correctly, in 5 of the seven days from 15th to 21st he practised at a gym, so not so bad. Anyway they are 5 rest days and 13 work days. Not many practice days for a professional sportsman, all the more for one that has to come back and convince everybody that he is back... But just to know: when he has 20 bouts with Asasekiryu, for example, doesn't he do anything else ? Warming up, practice with the pole, gym, whatever ? Do the other rikishi practice every day or do they take days off ? And do they practice longer and harder than Asashoryu ?

[paolo 0]

It's an abort. Asashouryuu was convinced by Takasago Oyakata to abandon his trip to Mongolia. "I'll be going for holidays somewhere in Japan..', said a smiling Asashouryuu. "Reflection on one's deeds is not an easy thing. In order that everyone will understand that he is reflecting, he shouldn't be going to Mongolia at this point. Hes till does not understand the full meaning of the word "reflection".

"I'm not going. I won't be seeing my children. Why are you all so worked up about this? "asked Asa of the reporters.

The changing of sunlight to moonlight.

The more I look at it, the more I am convinced that the comedy is going on... The two actors are playing their parts well: in this case: Asashoryu "asks" his Oyakata, Takasago "manages the situation", "explains" and "let Asashoryu understand", Asashoryu "reflects" and "obeys". The same is when Asashoryu practices: Takasago calls Asashoryu and "explains" and "gives suggestions", Asashoryu "respectfully listens" and "puts the advice into practice". Who thinks that really Takasago has much to teach Asashoryu about sumo technique ? But the actors play on.....Fascinating !

[paolo 0]

No need for very enlightening count of Asa's keiko Kintamayama. As I stated in the earlier post of mine, the 2 basho ban has effectively sealed Asa's retirement. He will be ashamed if he slips even one bout, will be hated for faking his numerous injuries if he goes zensho. The trap is there in any case. On top of this, he will be watched for his every single move, including his basic reflections such as eyelid movements, and facial muscle twitching. He can't win convincingly, that would amount to a barbaric non-sumoish, un-civilized behavour. He can't win easy, because that would be ignoring of Japanese fans' high expectations, and will amount to a yacho.

I think you are right, but his pride tells him not to give all of them the satisfaction of not seeing him around without even giving it a try. In a way he is right: if he does not succeed he will have lost nothing in comparison to the current situation. If he succeeds he will have achieved an incredible result. And he is still in time to send them all to hell if he likes....

[Kintamayama 47,236]

Asashouryuu went to Kasugano for degeiko today. He had moshi-ai with the lower rankers. Then, he proceeded to have 20 bouts against the assembled sekitori, concluding with a butsugari session with new sekitori Kimurayama and Tochinoshin. Unlike two days ago, Asa went out of his way to hold a thorough keiko session today.

"So the Rabbi says to the Priest.."

Young rikishi: "They want me to chop off this little finger here because I was 5 minutes late.."

Other young rikishi standing: "My, that water looks good.."

[Kintamayama 47,236]

But just to know: when he has 20 bouts with Asasekiryu, for example, doesn't he do anything else ? Warming up, practice with the pole, gym, whatever ? Do the other rikishi practice every day or do they take days off ? And do they practice longer and harder than Asashoryu ?

He probably does all the warm-up stuff and foundation regimen, but reporters don't count that. Every reporter has his own take about what a good training session is made of, as do the various oyakata. What the reporters are after is more a good story than anything else, of course. This Asa practice table was taken from a Sanspo article . Looking at the raw numbers, it can create a feeling of a somewhat insufficient approach by the returning and relatively out of shape Yokozuna. That is what the reporter wanted to convey. with some success. You don't have to be a sumo expert to see that it doesn't seem very serious. OTOH, we've still got more than two weeks, so what's the hurry, right?

Edited December 25, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 47,236]

Takasago calls Asa on his imaginary phone and tells him he refuses to let him go home for the holidays:

[Kintamayama 47,236]

More from today's degeiko:

After coming for 20 minutes and pissing the Oyakata off two days ago, Asashouryuu stayed for an hour and a half, and then bowed to Kasugano before he left. The 20 bouts ended 18-2.

As for Asa's holiday plans, it will be the first time since he became Yokozuna that he will not be going home for the holidays. "Going back?? I'm not going back, not going back, not going back, not going back. I won't be seeing the children!", he answered.

Phones calls were coming in to the Kyokai offices regarding Asa's holiday plans. Not as many as in the height of his scandal when the phone lines collapsed, but nevertheless, three officials were answering the phones. The number of fans who were all for letting Asa go home for the holidays were the majority this time, albeit not an overwhelming majority, but still.. There were quite a few calls criticizing Ms. Uchidate's surprise visit to Takasago beya and what transpired afterwards as well.

Look at this - Asa rolls into Kasugano's lap after throwing Futenou - picture of the year?:

Sweat- " I knew that turtle soup was a bit too much for breakfast..'

Well, SOMEONE seems to be pleased with himself.. (R U avin' a laff? Is 'e 'avin a laff?)

Guy kneeling on the floor : "You gotta stop with the jokes.. you're killing us..'

Asa: "Did I tell you the one about the Yokozuna asking his oyakata for permission to go home for the holidays?? This will REALLY kill you.."

Edited December 25, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Washuyama 662]

OK guys, When I pull on my ear like this, act like I'm the boss... Do some shiko or somethin'.

[Washuyama 662]

Hey look! Somebody put gum under this table!

[HenryK 38]

Being a member of the British royal family must be a piece of cake compared to being Asashoryu. Whatever move he makes that displeases some self-righteous functionary or journalist -- and be it only his alleged eye expression -- leads to immediate anxious calls for his retirement.

Asashoryu just made the recent jungyo a smashing success all by himself, coming at the heels of an all-time dreadful Kyushu basho. Mobbing him out of Ozumo seems a rather self-defeating strategy.

Edited December 26, 2007 by HenryK

[Kintamayama 47,236]

After he got back from Kasugano beya yesterday, Asashouryuu intended to get cleaned up and ask permission to go to Mongolia from Takasago Oyakata. As he entered the bath area, he was in for a surprise- his shisho was already in the bath.

T: "Hey Shouryuu, it's better you don't go to Mongolia..

A, caught totally off guard: "Huh? But there is no keiko at the end of the year, so I just want to return on those days.. "

T: "This is a time for purification. The apology interview isn't enough-society still hasn't forgiven you. It's better you fulfill your duties on the dohyo in January, and then go back home!"

A: "Yes, I understand, shisho.."

So it was a naked discussion and decision. I have pictures, but I will need a small fee for them..

Later, Asa phoned Takasago "I have told the press I will not be going home. Just for confirmation, may I go to an onsen during the holidays?" "Sure, no problem", answered Takasago.

Edited December 26, 2007 by Kintamayama

[paolo 0]

5 of the seven days from 15th to 21st he practised at a gym, so not so bad.

Maybe for Asashoryu but gym work does nothing to help the lower rankers in the heya and in the sumo world only sumo keiko counts in the minds of most people. Anything outside the traditional sumo exercises is regarded with suspision and distain (on the surface at least) despite the fact that almost all rikishi use gyms and weight rooms. You'll never hear an oyakata say "yeah he's been doing great things with the deadlift and rowing machine this week".

Agreed. But I think that everybody cannot but understand (admit it or not) that in this moment this Yokozuna situation is not the normal one. Asashoryu's main goal can only be to try to come back and win, otherwise why has he been allowed to stay within Sumo ? And a not good result will not be forgiven. Even if he wins he will have problems for a while, imagin if he gets a 12-3 or worse (that unfortunately I personally think is probable, given the circumstances). If he feels he needs gym, he must practice in a gym, if he thinks he needs rowing machine exercise he must do that. If his training is now and then somewhat different from what is expected from a Yokozuna , they all should turn a blind eye for THIS basho. Nobody can think that a sportsman can leave his sport for four months without problems. Asking from him that he immediately achieves his top level and not allowing him to behave consequentely would be contradictory (not that the Kyokai has shown a great ability in understanding and managing people and situations, to tell the truth....).

[Hananotaka 8]

Asashoryu certainly needs to do good in Hatsu 08. But 12-3 will not be a problem, nor 11-4, or even 10-5. I make this guarantee - the Yokoshin will NOT make a recommendation for retirement if Asa wins double digits. They may make some snarky comments, but really, after the long (Kyokai approved) layoff, the minimum is 10-5, and anything better than 11-4 is gravy. Hell, 12-3 is Yusho territory.