46 replies to this topic

[Kintamayama]

Twins are joining Dewanoumi. With these words, I may be mentioning the next sumo sensation for the first time, or maybe not. For these twins are half-American, sons of a Navy person stationed in Miyagi Prefecture. They lived there till they were in Junior high, when they moved to Montana, where they played American football and wrestled. They learned about Sumo from the Internet and decided to join. Fluent in English and good looking, they are 順 Jun (Ari?) and Ray (礼) Saito. Jun is 1.90 meters and weighs 123 kilos. "I wanted to learn more about Sumo, Japan's culture", he explained. His brother is also 1.90 meters but weighs 146 kilos. "I am Japanese, and I have been yearning for this", he added.

But will they last??

Edited by Kintamayama, 28 August 2009 - 17:44.

[Asashosakari]

Just to add, they're 22 years old. (And I think the internet thing is about their choosing Dewanoumi-beya, not sumo generally.)

I'm guessing they're the Jun (215 lbs category) and Rei (275 lbs) Saito who are listed in these wrestling results from 2005.

Edit: And on this HS football roster from 05/06.

Edited by Asashosakari, 28 August 2009 - 19:16.

[Kintamayama]

I think the internet thing is about their choosing Dewanoumi-beya, not sumo generally.

Correct...

[Kintamayama]

Am I assuming to much in thinking they have dual citizenship?

AFAIK it's not possible with a Japanese citizenship, but there probably are ways.. They will definitely be regarded as Japanese for all Sumo intents and purposes.

[yamaneko]

Very interesting.

THe last half American, Marvin Lee Sano had a promising career derailed by injuries. These guys do not have the sumo experience that marvin had, but have good size, and contact sport experience. This could be interesting.

[Sumo Menko Man]

Awesome! What is the Japanese media saying about them, if anything?

[Kintamayama]

Awesome! What is the Japanese media saying about them, if anything?

Just what I wrote so far, at least online.

[kaiguma]

Am I assuming to much in thinking they have dual citizenship?

AFAIK it's not possible with a Japanese citizenship, but there probably are ways.. They will definitely be regarded as Japanese for all Sumo intents and purposes.

Anyone can feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but...

Half-Japanese children who have a parent of another nationality can be issued dual citizenship. By Japanese law they are supposed to choose one over the other at the age of 20 but there seems to be very little follow-up to make sure that they have done so. In fact, there may be no legal avenue for the Japanese government to do so. However you can be nailed for this at customs if you do not use the same passport for entering and exiting Japan. Even so the punishment is not harsh and apparently only raises the issue at which point you could be "ordered" to renounce one citizenship or the other. Of course the latter scenario may have become more harsh in the past few years as immigration policies have apparently undergone some drastic reforms.

I am certain that most of this is true for half-Japanese children born on foreign soil. Both of my children have dual citizenship. I would assume the reverse is true, as in their case. And definitely so if they were born on an American base.

[yamaneko]

Two things.....impressive that they learned fluent japanese if they were from a military family, even with a Japanese mother, that doesnt always happen. Did they move to the states with their mom? Why do they have a japanese surname?

I wonder why they never gave amasumo a try.

The new Bulgarian will also be in this maezumo right? I hope someone can take some video if possible and upload

[Orion]

Am I assuming to much in thinking they have dual citizenship?

AFAIK it's not possible with a Japanese citizenship, but there probably are ways.. They will definitely be regarded as Japanese for all Sumo intents and purposes.

Indeed. Since the Kyokai has had for some time the 'one foreigner per stable' rule, there is no doubt whatever that they are being treated as Japanese; Dewanoumi already has its one foreigner, Mongolian Dewahikari. And if they had been American, even twins wouldn't have been allowed into the same heya. I'll ask them about their parents when I get a chance. Keiko resumes at Dewanoumi tomorrow, as the new keikoba was consexcrated today. As I passed Kasugano this morning there was a sound of thwacking from within, so they were remaking their own keikoba today. (These two heya for sure use the same tools, and I believe take it in turns to go frst.)

Catch question: are there still any heya that have more than one foreigner, dating from a time before the number was reduced?

Orion

[Asojima]

Catch question: are there still any heya that have more than one foreigner, dating from a time before the number was reduced?

Orion

Takasago comes to mind real quick.

[Kintamayama]

Catch question: are there still any heya that have more than one foreigner, dating from a time before the number was reduced?

Orion

Takasago comes to mind real quick.

Finally my now defunct foreigner site comes in handy..
3 (!!) for Hanakago-Kouryuu, Arawashi and Ryuukiyama (who just switched back to being a foreigner, which to me is weird they allowed it..)
Ooshima- Kyokushoehorn and Kyokutenhou (Yeah, I know he has citizenship-, but he's still listed as Mongolian)
Hakkaku- Hoshihikari and Hoshizakura
Kiriyama- Tokusegawa and Hanasegawa
Miyagino- Hakuhou and Ryuuou
Shikihide- Senshou and Taika
Kokonoe starting this basho, with Aoiyama and Chiyohakuryuu, who now has citizenship.

I probably missed one..

Edited by Kintamayama, 30 August 2009 - 08:26.

[ilovesumo]

Ahm, no other shindeshi?

[Kintamayama]

Ahm, no other shindeshi?

Nothing written so far.

[Raishu]

Catch question: are there still any heya that have more than one foreigner, dating from a time before the number was reduced?

Orion

Takasago comes to mind real quick.

Finally my now defunct foreigner site comes in handy..
3 (!!) for Hanakago-Kouryuu, Arawashi and Ryuukiyama (who just switched back to being a foreigner, which to me is weird they allowed it..)
Ooshima- Kyokushoehorn and Kyokutenhou (Yeah, I know he has citizenship-, but he's still listed as Mongolian)
Hakkaku- Hoshihikari and Hoshizakura
Kiriyama- Tokusegawa and Hanasegawa
Miyagino- Hakuhou and Ryuuou
Shikihide- Senshou and Taika
Kokonoe starting this basho, with Aoiyama and Chiyohakuryuu, who now has citizenship.

I probably missed one..

Tatsunami - Mokonami and Daionami

And Aoiyama belongs to Tagonoura beya. The new Mongolian kid at Kokonoe is Shoma.

[Asashosakari]

Ahm, no other shindeshi?

Deadline's September 3rd, so unless there's another high-profile guy we probably won't hear/read anything about the total number until then.

Oh, and Tomozuna (Kaisei, Kaishin). Kaishin wasn't registered as Brazilian for some time in between, was he? (The DB says he was, but that doesn't match my memory...)

Edited by Asashosakari, 30 August 2009 - 11:51.

[Kintamayama]

Tatsunami - Mokonami and Daionami

And Aoiyama belongs to Tagonoura beya. The new Mongolian kid at Kokonoe is Shoma.

Right-senile error..

[Kintamayama]

Oh, and Tomozuna (Kaisei, Kaishin). Kaishin wasn't registered as Brazilian for some time in between, was he? (The DB says he was, but that doesn't match my memory...)

My Emmanuelle foreigners' archives says Kainohama has Brazil as shusshin all the way, though he has citizenship.

[Kotoviki]

Two things.....impressive that they learned fluent japanese if they were from a military family, even with a Japanese mother, that doesnt always happen. Did they move to the states with their mom? Why do they have a japanese surname?

I wonder why they never gave amasumo a try.

The new Bulgarian will also be in this maezumo right? I hope someone can take some video if possible and upload

The new Bulgarian did his maezumo in Nagoya. I missed it because they had so few that they finished the maezumo before Harry & I ever got to Nagoya. I only have his dohyoiri pics! sorry!

As for the new twins.. (disclaimer I am no expert on this just have lots of experience with American military kids & other foreigner kids in Japan) "why do they have Japanese Surnames..?" I have seen that with most families kids take mothers (usually I'm seeing Japanese mother/foreign father) last name if they go to Japanese school or if they live away from a military base. This is because it is easier to register them in Japanese school with Japanese last name.. it is also the case when Japanese spouse registers husband & kids on her family's register at the City office. The cases I know both names are listed on birth certificate they can choose the one they want to use in each situation. They may very well have used their father's name in the states? I don't know.

The dual citizenship thing is "foggy" at best! As someone mentioned you are supposed to give up the passport of one or the other but I know many who don't. There is still no "real" punishment that I'm aware of. Just keep them straight which you use to enter & come back as someone else mentioned. In the US I was told that you are supposed to decide your citizenship by the time you are 18 if you don't go to school. 23 if you are a full time student. What were they doing since high school? IN that case they have time to decide.

Even adults I know who changed to Japanese citizenship are keeping US passports as well.

Another thing as someone asked "any more recruits" there may not be... There were only a few in Nagoya.

At the risk of totally embarrassing myself I have to say that I actually asked a friend who is manager of a heya "why are there so many recruits in March & so few in July?" He looked at me like I was losing my mind.. as a teacher I should have clearly realized...

graduations are in February those that don't go on to high school or college jump in then...
There aren't so many at the other basho because they are either in school or working.. not many of them will have started school & decided to drop out and join sumo after their parents paid tuition!

[Asashosakari]

Oh, and Tomozuna (Kaisei, Kaishin). Kaishin wasn't registered as Brazilian for some time in between, was he? (The DB says he was, but that doesn't match my memory...)

My Emmanuelle foreigners' archives says Kainohama has Brazil as shusshin all the way, though he has citizenship.

Thanks...memory fail on my part, then. That'll teach me not to doubt the DB. I guess it's Kaishin holding the citizenship that allowed Kaisei to join as well? I honestly don't remember either way now, which is odd (either the controversy or non-controversy should still be with me).

On another topic, what's with all the twins joining lately? Already the fifth pair in just the last two and a half years...

The cases I know both names are listed on birth certificate they can choose the one they want to use in each situation. They may very well have used their father's name in the states? I don't know.

No, as mentioned up-thread they used Saito in the States as well. (Of course, it is possible that the father's name is Saito.) In any case, while apparently they spent their first ~15 years in Japan, I find it somewhat difficult to believe their father was stationed there all the way through, so they were presumably living primarily with their mother anyway.

Edited by Asashosakari, 30 August 2009 - 14:30.

[Kotoviki]

The cases I know both names are listed on birth certificate they can choose the one they want to use in each situation. They may very well have used their father's name in the states? I don't know.

No, as mentioned up-thread they used Saito in the States as well. (Of course, it is possible that the father's name is Saito.) In any case, while apparently they spent their first ~15 years in Japan, I find it somewhat difficult to believe their father was stationed there all the way through, so they were presumably living primarily with their mother anyway.

Well that is true, the father could be Saito.. My doc at the military base is a 3rd generation Japanese American with name of Tanaka... so who knows? I had forgotten they were Saito in the states as well..

As for the time in Japan, I have many friends who have been staying in Japan for more than 10 years or even longer. If their jobs are able to promote & stay they can. Some military jobs they have to move to another base in order to get promoted but I know an Air Force guy who stayed long enough for all his kids to grow up here & then he moved to an embassy in Egypt when the kids were gone to college. So it is possible.
What I'm wondering is the Miyagi thing.. there are no bases in Miyagi unless I've lost my mind so he had to be stationed at a Japanese base as a joint service or?? something else. Possible as I had another friend who did 3 years US base as pilot, 3 years at a Japanese base as an instructor pilot, came back to the original base for 3 years & extended for 3 more (that is quite common) & then back to another Japanese base.. so he was here over 12 years.

It will be interesting to find out.....


PS one more on the passport citizenship thing..
I was told by someone that there is no cooperation between countries to check who has both passports so that it is your own responsibility to turn in your passport & say "no thanks I want to have xx citizenship now" but as long as you keep your passport (s) current & file tax papers and the like the passport offices do not talk to each other!

[kaiguma]

I thought I'd also add what I know about Birth Registration and Birth Certificates in Japan and the US.

If you are born outside of Japan with citizenship, your birth is registered at your mother's "county seat" and as far as I know you are only allowed to use your mother's surname. And that will be only in Kanji so it can only be a Japanese name. Even when married to a foreigner in Japan, a Japanese woman cannot change her registry to a foreign name.

That seems to conflict with what Viki writes, so I could have that wrong or I misunderstood her. So in the case of being born outside of Japan, a child could have two completely separate and totally different names, from beginning to end, and each could be considered valid on its own turf. Maybe this is what she meant about being able to pick and choose...

However if you are born outside of America, I believe the information from a Foreign Birth Registry is translated directly into a Foreign-Born Certificate and there may not be a chance to "pick a new name." I suppose transliteration of kanji would provide a chance to "cheat" that process but I digress.

Or if they waited to create the birth certificate until they were older, such as to facilitate moving to and settling down in America, it may have just been natural to go with the name they'd been called by all their lives. After all, in Japan, the position of the family name is usually before the given name so they have always thought of themselves as 'Saito.'

[yamaneko]

How many banzuke gai guys going to compete in maezumo? if not enough, might we have the twins face each other?

[Kotoviki]

I thought I'd also add what I know about Birth Registration and Birth Certificates in Japan and the US.

If you are born outside of Japan with citizenship, your birth is registered at your mother's "county seat" and as far as I know you are only allowed to use your mother's surname. And that will be only in Kanji so it can only be a Japanese name. Even when married to a foreigner in Japan, a Japanese woman cannot change her registry to a foreign name.

That seems to conflict with what Viki writes, so I could have that wrong or I misunderstood her. So in the case of being born outside of Japan, a child could have two completely separate and totally different names, from beginning to end, and each could be considered valid on its own turf. Maybe this is what she meant about being able to pick and choose...

However if you are born outside of America, I believe the information from a Foreign Birth Registry is translated directly into a Foreign-Born Certificate and there may not be a chance to "pick a new name." I suppose transliteration of kanji would provide a chance to "cheat" that process but I digress.

Or if they waited to create the birth certificate until they were older, such as to facilitate moving to and settling down in America, it may have just been natural to go with the name they'd been called by all their lives. After all, in Japan, the position of the family name is usually before the given name so they have always thought of themselves as 'Saito.'

Hi! May be time for me to do a little chatting with friends now that my curiosity is peaked! It has been awhile since I really talked to any foreigners married to Japanese about the specifics of a birth certificate.. but I do know that my friend said that for the family register even he took his wife's name to get listed on it! He is not American, not that it matters.. but anyway his kids are using his last name as their middle names on birth certificates, wife's as last name.. if I do remember correctly. For school they are just registered with wife's last name but their first names are all in romanji as they have western names like Richard, Naomi (yes a Japanese name but they are treating it like Western style with no kanji).. etc.

Anyway they have dual citizenship now with Japan & Ghana...

With my old Military friends I do remember that my friend said that because the kids were born on Japan soil they were eligible for dual citizenship, some took it most did not. The ones with Japanese spouse always took dual but when there was no Japanese spouse some did just for fun but said the cost of the extra passport wasn't worth it... & true they were never going to live in Japan...after their tours were up.

They had Japanese birth certificates & American ones issued by the military hospital. But I don't know exactly what was on the birth certificates for names. I really do need to get in touch with someone who has a kid in that situation & ask! Because now my curiosity is peaked!!
I do have a friend who just divorced his Japanese wife & took his kids to the US. In Japan they went to school with the Japanese first names, American middle names & Japanese last names. But in the US he is not using his ex-wife's name, he was using his..They are small like 4 & 6 so he just said "I'm cutting all ties with the exwife so hope they get used to using my last name.. "

Anyway... it is an interesting subject!!!

[Orion]

I do have a friend who just divorced his Japanese wife & took his kids to the US. In Japan they went to school with the Japanese first names, American middle names & Japanese last names. But in the US he is not using his ex-wife's name, he was using his..They are small like 4 & 6 so he just said "I'm cutting all ties with the exwife so hope they get used to using my last name.. "
Anyway... it is an interesting subject!!!

Very interesting indeed. It's very rare for a foreign father to get his kids out of the country and cut off all ties with the Japanese mother; overwhelmingly it's the other way round. Two of my acquaintances are currently trying to get back into their children's lives; and there's actually an association of foreign fathers trying to buck the Japanese legal system, which favors the Japanese mother.

Orion wildly off-topic by now