Christian wrestlers.

[Lucius Flavonius 0]

Are there any Christian wrestler in Ozumo?

Any information would be welcome.

[Burainoan 0]

Are there any Christian wrestler in Ozumo?

Any information would be welcome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kokkai is Christian, presumably Russian Orthodox. I've seen him cross himself on the hanamichi on a number of occasions, and he declared "the protection of Jesus Christ" as his "treasure" in the "I Am A Rikishi" book. I haven't heard anything about the Ossetian brothers or Oshu, but it seems reasonably likely.

[Lucius Flavonius 0]

Kokkai is Christian, presumably Russian Orthodox.  I haven't heard anything about the Ossetian brothers or Oshu, but it seems reasonably likely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Kokkai's Georgian Orthodox. Georgians have been autocephalous since the 5th century A.D. with some interruptions. Roho and Hakurozan are probably Orthodox. So is Kotooshu, perhaps.

Any Japanese rikishis who profess Christianity?

[Zuikakuyama 1]

So is the performance of the shinto ritual by these rikishi considered heretical?

[Burainoan 0]

So is the performance of the shinto ritual by these rikishi considered heretical?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would be very interested to hear one of the rikishi in question - particularly Kokkai - address that issue. but i suspect they consider it a simple routine and ignore the religious implications. probably at least some of the Japanese rikishi think the same way.

statistically, there should have been at least one or two Christian Japanese rikishi, but being good Japanese, they likely kept quiet about it.

[Manekineko 200]

I think Kasugao is Christian... wasn't there some mention about it when they intreviewed him with his mom, in time of Korean koen?

Edited May 24, 2005 by Manekineko

[Guest gounoiwa]

Any Japanese rikishis who profess Christianity?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Terao (now Shikoroyama Oyakata) used to cross himself in a rather Christian manner during the shikiri (specifically, just before he threw the salt). Does anyone know if he professes to be Christian?

[Manekineko 200]

Terao (now Shikoroyama Oyakata) used to cross himself in a rather Christian manner during the shikiri (specifically, just before he threw the salt). Does anyone know if he professes to be Christian?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think someone mentioned that it looked that way because he "salted" his once-injured shoulders to ward off further injury...

[Kaikitsune Makoto 210]

Are there any Christian wrestler in Ozumo?

Kotomitsuki once gave an interview where he said something like "with the help of God"/"thanks to God" or something similar. Regardless of the actual quote, when I read it, it seemed very strong and if someone would say similar phrase in Finnish, one would easily suspect the person to be religious to some degree. I believe there was a comment by Jonosuke (if it was his translation) or some other Japanese person at least who commented it by saying "Very unusual comment by a Japanese rikishi". So I suppose it is possible that Kotomitsuki would be Christian. This is not robust info though and my memory might be wrong although I doubt that.

Terao (now Shikoroyama Oyakata) used to cross himself in a rather Christian manner during the shikiri (specifically, just before he threw the salt). Does anyone know if he professes to be Christian?

*

I think someone mentioned that it looked that way because he "salted" his once-injured shoulders to ward off further injury...

Terao also has a congenital heart valve defect and in some context it was said somewhere that the salt sprinkle onto his chest was due to this.

[sumofan 6]

So is the performance of the shinto ritual by these rikishi considered heretical?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i was going to write a whole rant about the cruel and power obsessed institution that is the katholic church (but also other christian and islamic religions), but i will skip that.

...

...

let's just say i think most organized religions are bastions of hypocrisy, and the cause of most of all misery on our world today.

EDIT: PLEASE read my reply to Kintamayama below.

Edited May 25, 2005 by sumofan

[Kintamayama 47,132]

i was going to write a whole rant about the cruel and power obsessed institution that is the katholic church (but also other christian and islamic religions), but i will skip that.

let's just say i think most organized religions are bastions of hypocrisy, and the cause of most of all misery on our world today.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So instead of ranting, you summarized. Religious discussions are a no-no on this forum, sir!

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

So instead of ranting, you summarized. Religious discussions are a no-no on this forum, sir!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So is this thread itself out of line? Or just sumofan's post.

sumofan: There are other forums where you can discuss religion to your heart's content.

I've been a member of this one:

http://forum.darwinawards.com/

(The main page is www.darwinawards.com but the link to the forum isn't very obvious)

[Kintamayama 47,132]

So instead of ranting, you summarized. Religious discussions are a no-no on this forum, sir!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So is this thread itself out of line? Or just sumofan's post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, come now, Mr. Rascal, you know what I mean. Till Sumofan's post, a question was asked if any rikishi was or wasn't Christian. No view was expressed. Sumofan expressed a view, and a very strong view at that. Can you not see the difference? Or is the fact that his view is somewhat close to yours clouding your judgement?

Edited May 25, 2005 by Kintamayama

[sumofan 6]

So instead of ranting, you summarized. Religious discussions are a no-no on this forum, sir!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Oops! )

Ok I apologise, but the topic was religious anyway.

the question that was posed queried the feelings / emotions a christian wrestler could have when paying respect to the rituals in Sumo.

the fact that one needs to ask if christian wrestlers should feel guilty or not indicates control / conditioning about something that should not be a problem to anyone.

paying respect (Being thrown tomatoes at...) to someone / something in the ways of that person / federation / country should never induce guilt or discomfort in yourself.

like the saying goes: When in Rome...

to end this post i offer my apologies to anyone who was discomforted with my post.

Have a nice day.

EDIT: and i will be more careful in the future.

Edited May 25, 2005 by sumofan

[Kintamayama 47,132]

So instead of ranting, you summarized. Religious discussions are a no-no on this forum, sir!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Oops! )

Ok I apologise, but the topic was religious anyway.

the question that was posed queried the feelings / emotions a christian wrestler could have when paying respect to the rituals in Sumo.

the fact that one needs to ask if christian wrestlers should feel guilty or not indicates control / conditioning about something that should not be a problem to anyone.

paying respect (Being thrown tomatoes at...) to someone / something in the ways of that person / federation / country should never induce guilt or discomfort in yourself.

like the saying goes: When in Rome...

to end this post i offer my apologies to anyone who was discomforted with my post.

Have a nice day.

EDIT: and i will be more careful in the future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the above post would have been your original one, it would have been great, because you convey your idea without detouring into something that may or may not be offensive to certain members.

Thanks for your understanding.

[Lucius Flavonius 0]

So do you allow the possibility that there might be "closet" adherents?

[Burainoan 0]

Which brings us back to the Kotomitsuki question. what did he say in Japanese? i have heard some Japanese say something like "Kamisama, arigatou," and mean more of a general "gods" rather than a specific Judeo-Christian/Islamic God/Yahweh/Allah.

i would be very curious to know if anyone has any additional info along those lines about Mitsuki, or any of the others....

[Manekineko 200]

So do you allow the possibility that there might be "closet" adherents?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, about as closet as Christians in Japan usually are (disclaimer: never been to Japan, all I know I learned from manga and books, such stuff) would be my guess, ie. not expressing their faith publicly but not hiding it particularly either. I personally don't think it should be any problem for a practicing Catholic (disclaimer 2: cannot speak for other Christian denominations) to chuck salt, clap hands, and show his mawashied butt to bored ladies in the front row... as long as he doesn't consider it warding off of demons, calling on divine assistance, and embarrasing. (Whistling...)

[rizarudo 0]

I'll add my opinion, after having avidly follwed this thread since the first post.

The New Testament gives an example by discussing if Christians should eat meat sacraficed in temples to "the gods". The reply given is that they can choose to eat that meat or not - as long as it does not prove to be a stumbling block for other Christians. So a Christian in general has to worry not only about maintaining their own salvation, but also the example they give to other Christians and - since the Christian faith is about evangelising to others - potential Christians.

Are the rituals/behavior/actions performed by rikishis in the course of their wrestling considered worship to a god/gods besides the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit)? If they are then it's a no no, as the Ten Commandments clearly indicate that the Christian (Jewish in the Old Testament when the Commandments were given) God is a jealous God and you shall worship no God but Him (paraphrase).

If it is more of a tradition stemming from religion but not worship in and of itself, like if you go to Iran as a woman you must (unless you're crazy) cover you hair, then it is up to the individual Christian to decide whether this action is hurting his own faith or preventing him from being a good example to other Christians. If it is, then he shouldn't. If it isn't then he is free and clear - but should probably have a ready explaination for how/why he does this as a Christian (the "when in Rome" defense someone mentioned earlier, perhaps).

Now I don't want to set the list aflame or anything. And I have tried my best not to express an opinion. What I have done is made my best effort to present a hopefully clear explaination of the biblical position on the matter of whether Christian rikishis are heretical by doing sumo rituals. Obviously you can disagree or agree, and this will probably not be how all - or maybe even most Christians think on the matter. It is one take (not exhaustive) on what the bible has to say on the question. I hope it has been clarifying.

I think that's as much disclaimer I can muster for now.

[_the_mind_ 0]

God is a jealous God and you shall worship no God but Him (paraphrase).

i do not think the word JEALOUS should ever be said of God. it isnt a matter of worshiping another God, its a matter of not allowing other things to rule your life as if it is God. as if you were to be an alchoholic dont worship the bottle or anything of that sort. yes the 10 commandments say to worship the God who decreed those commandments but the word "jelous" is out of line given that most religions in this day and age are NOT politheistic. that is the nature of monotheisim.

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

Kintamayama: Yes, I see the difference. I also agree that this forum is not a place for strong religious opinions. Questioning the thead itself is because even bringing the topic up is a slippery slope, and sumofan seems to have slipped down it, showing that there is indeed a slippery slope. ;-)

My views might be similar, although I don't care for purposefully misspelling the name of a religion to indicate derision. Or the name of a country, for that matter. It seems petty to me. I prefer a respectful critique to a polemic.

rizarudo: I'm no expert, but I don't think there's anything in the Bible that says a woman can't cover her head, so that shouldn't cause a problem. I think there are a lot of things that the old testament prohibits, but the vast majority of Christians ignore. OTOH, it expressly permits divorce (Deuteronomy 24:1) but the Catholic Church doesn't allow it, even though the Bible says it's OK.

Manekineko: I don't think Christains are too shy here. I see a lot of young women wearing cross pendants these days, although I can't say for sure if it actually means they are Christain, or is just a fashion statement. I've also had Japanese Jehovah's Witnesses come to my house. More often than when I lived in the US in fact.

Disclaimer: I neither endorse nor condemn any of the beliefs described above.

Edited May 27, 2005 by Araiguma_Rascal

[rizarudo 0]

God is a jealous God and you shall worship no God but Him (paraphrase).

i do not think the word JEALOUS should ever be said of God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exodus Chapter 20 verse 5 "... for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..."

Exodus Chapter 34 verse 14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"

Deuteronomy Chapter 4 verse 24 "For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God."

Deuteronomy Chapter 5 verse 9 "Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..."

and there are many more but I got tired of typing. Like I said - it's not my opinion but a paraphrase of the bible - which anyone is certainly entitled to vehemently disagree with. And I certainly don't want to turn it into a religious back and forth on opinion - just provide what I thought was a reasonable objective take on what the bible literally has to say on the matter.

Forgive me if I am getting off topic all and I will shut up now.

Rascal - I gree we are now hurdling headlong down the slippery slope of this topc and I apologize for the part I played in that. Perhaps the topic should be closed and we'll all go out and get a drink together? :)

Edited May 26, 2005 by rizarudo

[Manekineko 200]

Please, no extensive quoting of scriptures...

The Mind and rizuardo, if you have theological bones to pick there is PM. This thread is dangerously close to being locked, but the original question is interesting so I'm giving it a benefit of a doubt. Don't make me regret it... ;-)

[Cammy 0]

I think that it is a very intersting question, and would be curious to know also. I am a Christian(Cumberland Presbetarian) and I would have no problem doing any of the sumo rituals. To me it is part of the sport and it would be very disrespectful not to do the rituals. Just how I feel on the topic...not going to get into a big argument over religion on a forum...I save those for my friends...in person.

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

Which brings us back to the Kotomitsuki question.  what did he say in Japanese?  i have heard some Japanese say something like "Kamisama, arigatou," and mean more of a general "gods" rather than a specific Judeo-Christian/Islamic God/Yahweh/Allah.

i would be very curious to know if anyone has any additional info along those lines about Mitsuki, or any of the others....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Japanese language is convenient in that it does not make a commitment either way as to whether "Kamisama" is singular or plural. However, there is a form that is unambiguously plural, "Kamigami."

From such a quote alone, I don't think one could judge whether or not Kotomitsuki is religious or which religion. Even a non-religious person may say "thank God," because it's just a regular expression appropriate for certain occasions when we are feeling thankful for some good fortune.