Aki 2014 Banzuke

[Asashosakari 19,669]

Hakuho (Y1e 13-2 Y) Y1 Kakuryu (Y2e 11-4)

Harumafuji (Y1w 10-5) Y2 ---

Kotoshogiku (Ow 12-3) O1 Kisenosato (Oe 9-6)

--- O2 Goeido (Se 12-3)

Myogiryu (M6w 11-4) S Takekaze (M4w 9-6)

Jokoryu (M7w 10-5) K Chiyotairyu (M8e 10-5)

Terunofuji (M6e 9-6) M1 Endo (M5w 8-7)

Takayasu (M11w 11-4) M2 Toyonoshima (M10w 10-5)

Aoiyama (Kw 6-9) M3 Yoshikaze (M2w 7-8)

Takarafuji (M9e 9-6) M4 Osunaarashi (M3w 7-8)

Toyohibiki (M8w 8-7) M5 Ikioi (M1e 5-10)

Aminishiki (Ke 3-12) M6 Kaisei (M3e 5-10)

Shohozan (M1w 4-11) M7 Chiyootori (M5e 6-9)

Tochiozan (Sw 2-6-7) M8 Arawashi (M17e 10-5)

Tamawashi (M4e 3-12) M9 Tochinowaka (M7e 5-10)

Ichinojo (J3w 13-2) M10 Kitataiki (M9w 6-9)

Chiyomaru (M16w 8-7) M11 Takanoiwa (J3e 12-3)

Sadanoumi (M11e 6-9) M12 Sadanofuji (J1w 9-6)

Homasho (M2e 1-5-9) M13 Sokokurai (M13w 7-8)

Kyokutenho (M12e 6-9) M14 Azumaryu (M14w 7-8)

Kyokushuho (M12w 6-9) M15 Okinoumi (M13e 6-8-1)

Tokitenku (M15w 7-8) M16 Kagamio (M14e 6-9)

Extra tough treatment for both Tochiozan and Homasho after their injury withdrawals, I guess...

Edited August 31, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,669]

Juryo:

Tokushoryu (M10e 4-11) J1 Amuru (J6e 10-5)

Homarefuji (J4w 9-6) J2 Sotairyu (J1e 7-8)

Shotenro (J4e 8-7) J3 Gagamaru (M15e 5-10)

Tosayutaka (J8w 11-4) J4 Kotoyuki (J5w 8-7)

Wakanosato (M16e 5-10) J5 Tochinoshin (J12e 13-2 Y)

Tamaasuka (J2w 6-9) J6 Fujiazuma (J9w 8-7)

Asasekiryu (J6w 7-8) J7 Masunoyama (J2e 5-10)

Tokushinho (J7e 7-8) J8 Chiyoo (J7w 7-8)

Daieisho (J12w 8-7) J9 Satoyama (J9e 7-8)

Sakigake (Ms1e 6-1) J10 Seiro (J5e 5-10)

Asahisho (J8e 6-9) J11 Yoshiazuma (Ms2w 5-2)

Daido (J10e 6-9) J12 Kitaharima (Ms4e 5-2)

Akiseyama (J11e 6-9) J13 Chiyonokuni (J11w 6-9)

Kyokutaisei (J13w 7-8) J14 Wakakoyu (Ms3e 4-3)

I'm sure Tochinoshin's thrilled with that ranking.

Makushita-joi:

Tenkaiho (J10w 5-10) Ms1 Tochihiryu (J14w 7-8)

Dewahayate (Ms4w 4-3) Ms2 Iwasaki (Ms9e 6-1)

Kotoeko (Ms5e 4-3) Ms3 Tatsu (Ms7e 5-2)

Kawabata (Ms6e 4-3) Ms4 Horyuyama (Ms1w 3-4)

Higonojo (Ms2e 3-4) Ms5 Wakanoshima (J13e 4-11)

Rikishin (Ms50e 7-0 Y) Ms6 Ishiura (Ms11e 5-2)

Horikiri (Ms11w 5-2) Ms7 Kizenryu (J14e 4-11)

Onosho (Ms10e 4-3) Ms8 Masunoumi (Ms21e 6-1)

Takatoshi (Ms22w 6-1) Ms9 Musashiumi (Ms5w 3-4)

Yamatofuji (Ms16w 5-2) Ms10 Keitenkai (Ms13e 4-3)

Daishoiwa (Ms14e 4-3) Ms11 Sensho (Ms19e 5-2)

Kawanari (Ms7w 3-4) Ms12 Kotomisen (Ms15e 4-3)

Chiyoshoma (Ms8e 3-4) Ms13 Ryuonami (Ms32w 6-1)

Kisenoyama (Ms8w 3-4) Ms14 Sagatsukasa (Ms3w 2-6)

Terutsuyoshi (Ms22e 5-2) Ms15 Kotokobai (Ms18e 4-3)

Uncharacteristically, this section actually looks quite sensible...

[kuroimori 1,634]

Tochinoshin at J5W after a 13-2 Yusho at J12E? -Gimme a break!!!

[chishafuwaku 476]

Scandalous!!!

And the difference between Amuru and Tosayukata does not seem fair...

chishafuwaku

[Gurowake 4,109]

So do they throw darts, or have a political back-and-forth give-and-take thing going on? Some of these decisions seem patently ludicrous and borderline inconsistent. It seems the only rule they won't break is having people in the same order as the previous banzuke if they get the same record, and ahead of anyone below them with a worse record. Everything else is up for debate, and identical situations in different parts of the banzuke will receive different treatment. I personally think the transparency in the process is way way too low; aren't they supposed to be basically a public institution now? Ah yes, their prejudice against foreign rikishi is clear now: they have to promote the sport for the Japanese and break every possible decision against the foreigners as much as possible. They have absolutely no duty to promote the sport beyond the borders of Japan, no matter how popular it gets with foreigners. They're as cold as ice and I'm hot blooded. It's urgent that they stop playing these head games. They should take a journey to Kansas via the river Styx.

[Gurowake 4,109]

Apparent Shikona changes:

Tanahashi -> Inaburmaru sd35w

Asaueno -> Asatodoroki sd77e

Juban -> Banjaku sd80w

Kaisho -> Kaiseio jd13w

Kotokudo -> Kotorikisen jd21e

Saito -> Kisensho jk22e

Shusshin is not listed the same as what's in the DB for the last one, but there's little doubt it's the same rikishi.

[evilwaldo 11]

From Endo up through the Komusubi and Sekiwake has me confused.

[Chiyozakura 148]

I do not see anything scandalous about the banzuke. The top half of Juryo is crowded and so there had to be some tough decisions. That is why people talk about the luck of the banzuke. Tochinoshin had bad luck and Chiyotairyu had good luck as there were no strong candidates for the second Komusubi slot. These things have always happened and will continue to do so in the future. I do not see anyone ranked above Tochinoshin who deserves to be ranked below him. There are some 50/50 cases but there is no unfair treatment. I remember Chiyotaikai going 11-4 as Juryo #2 and only making it to #1. A little later he went 9-6 as #1 and just moved from West to East. These things are bound to happen.

[Kintamayama 45,534]

Tochinoshin's rank seemed strange at first but upon closer investigation, not that bad. How were 13-2 J12 rikishi treated in the past?

[Jakusotsu 6,050]

How were 13-2 J12 rikishi treated in the past?

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=j12&form1_wins=13

[alaninjapan 18]

M10e rank doesn't seem to have helped Tokushoryu much. How does Kagamio with 6 wins from four whole ranks lower survive higher than Tokushoryu. Ah well, back to usual with no Nara boys in the big league.

[Kintamayama 45,534]

How were 13-2 J12 rikishi treated in the past?

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=j12&form1_wins=13

Sagatsukasa is not a good example for obvious reasons. The other two were a long time ago. Interesting.

[Kintamayama 45,534]

How does Kagamio with 6 wins from four whole ranks lower survive higher than Tokushoryu.

Exactly. Any way you look at this, it is nuts. Precedence?

[Asashosakari 19,669]

I do not see anyone ranked above Tochinoshin who deserves to be ranked below him. There are some 50/50 cases but there is no unfair treatment.

Seriously? For starters, there's no way Kotoyuki should be ranked ahead of him. Even simply switching these two would already improve things markedly. Yes, that would mean Kotoyuki goes J5w 8-7 -> J5w, but obviously they have no problem with extreme under-promotions elsewhere so this should also be fair game.

Edit: In any case, the comparison to Chiyotaikai's treatment back in 1996/97 is invalid because they had a lot more degrees of freedom to work with this time. Taikai was literally put into the best spot that was available at all, so that was simply a case of bad luck. Tochinoshin isn't the victim of bad luck here, but simply of very questionable decision-making. (By the way, back in that 1996 banzuke session, they actually did keep an 8-7 score at the same rank...)

Edited September 1, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,669]

How does Kagamio with 6 wins from four whole ranks lower survive higher than Tokushoryu.

Exactly. Any way you look at this, it is nuts. Precedence?

I don't understand. That's one of the few things about this banzuke that's perfectly normal.

[Kintamayama 45,534]

How does Kagamio with 6 wins from four whole ranks lower survive higher than Tokushoryu.

Exactly. Any way you look at this, it is nuts. Precedence?

I don't understand. That's one of the few things about this banzuke that's perfectly normal.

It's normal for a 4-11 from 10 to go down 5 slots while a 6-9 from 14 goes down 2? Didn't check, but seems weird to me.

[Kintamayama 45,534]

OK, queried- of the last 4 to go 6-9 at 14E *(since I am checking tendencies of late-before that more stayed, but..), 3 were demoted, one wasn't. Guess who he was.. Azumaryuu was demoted because it was imperative to promote an 8-7 Sadanoumi from Je4. Really?

Of the last 4 to go 4-11 at 10E (since we had 42 rikishi in M), 3 stayed, one was demoted.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 19,669]

OK, queried- of the last 4 to go 6-9 at 14E *(since I am checking tendencies of late-before that more stayed, but..), 3 were demoted, one wasn't. Guess who he was.. Azumaryuu was demoted because it was imperative to promote an 8-7 Sadanoumi from Je4. Really?

Of the last 4 to go 4-11 at 10E (since we had 42 rikishi in M), 3 stayed, one was demoted.

It's not about what happened in other tournaments under completely different circumstances. In this specific case it's simply: Somebody had to be demoted to make room for Sadanofuji, and the choice was between Tokushoryu and Kagamio. Their ranks/records are basically identical in quality (difference of 2 wins and 4 ranks), and they decided to give preference to the guy who had more wins, so Tokushoryu goes to juryo. Nothing unusual about it. (Except that a foreign rikishi profited from it. ;-)) The stranger part is that they didn't simply drop Kagamio as well, although it's not hugely surprising, given that there wasn't any further juryo rikishi with a strong claim.

(Personally though, I still think M16w should have Tochinoshin's name on it now. I hope he goes 15-0 just to demonstrate how retarded it was to keep him in juryo at all, regardless of the further insult they added by putting him so low.)

[Kintamayama 45,534]

OK, queried- of the last 4 to go 6-9 at 14E *(since I am checking tendencies of late-before that more stayed, but..), 3 were demoted, one wasn't. Guess who he was.. Azumaryuu was demoted because it was imperative to promote an 8-7 Sadanoumi from Je4. Really?

Of the last 4 to go 4-11 at 10E (since we had 42 rikishi in M), 3 stayed, one was demoted.

they decided to give preference to the guy who had more wins, so Tokushoryu goes to juryo. Nothing unusual about it.

Is it normal that they decide on a guy who had more wins when the records are pretty much the same as in this case? The fact that Sadanofuji had to be promoted is true, but why Tokushouryuu got the demotion and not Kagamiou (for the second time in three bashos, BTW) is still beyond me, regardless of the speculation that it's because he had less wins. Is Kagamiyama a banzuke- making Oyakata?

Edited September 1, 2014 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 19,669]

Is it normal that they decide on a guy who had more wins when the records are pretty much the same as in this case? The fact that Sadanofuji had to be promoted is true, but why Tokushouryuu got the demotion and not Kagamiou (for the second time in three bashos, BTW) is still beyond me, regardless of the speculation that it's because he had less wins.

It's "normal" in the sense that there's no right or wrong answer in these close cases. The majority of the 23 oyakata must have felt that Kagamio deserved to stay more than Tokushoryu did, and that's that. It would be okay if they had decided the other way, too.

By "second time", I guess you mean after Hatsu basho? Who else should have got that spot there? All the demoted rikishi were clearly worse than Kagamio, and there was no other promotion candidate.

Is Kagamiyama a banzuke- making Oyakata?

He left the committee after Haru basho.

[Chiyozakura 148]

I do not see anyone ranked above Tochinoshin who deserves to be ranked below him. There are some 50/50 cases but there is no unfair treatment.

Seriously? For starters, there's no way Kotoyuki should be ranked ahead of him. Even simply switching these two would already improve things markedly. Yes, that would mean Kotoyuki goes J5w 8-7 -> J5w, but obviously they have no problem with extreme under-promotions elsewhere so this should also be fair game.

Yes, seriously. I see nothing wrong in promoting Kotoyuki one rank. I would not have disagreed if they had switched positions but both ways seem reasonable to me. No matter how they turn it one guy would have been unlucky and this time it was Tochinoshin.

[Asashosakari 19,669]

Yes, seriously. I see nothing wrong in promoting Kotoyuki one rank. I would not have disagreed if they had switched positions but both ways seem reasonable to me.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. As far as I'm concerned it's simply insane that 5 additional wins don't compensate for a 6.5 rank difference. Heck, that they didn't compensate for the 8 rank difference to Shotenro is already pretty exceptional.

Just curious, how high would Tochinoshin's Nagoya rank have to have been for you to determine that he should definitely be placed ahead of Kotoyuki?

No matter how they turn it one guy would have been unlucky and this time it was Tochinoshin.

That's just not true. It's easily possible to arrange it so that everybody in the J1-J5 area receives roughly equal shares of the bad banzuke luck, instead of dumping almost all of it on Tochinoshin and Tosayutaka.

And more generally speaking, to dump bad banzuke luck on the best-performing rikishi involved in a crunch is pretty stupid in its own right. Guess they haven't learned anything from the yaocho scandal.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,669]

This is mere speculation, but IIRC Tochinoshin was in trouble a couple times with his oyakata some years back over going out partying dressed in civilian attire or some such thing. He was suspended from the keikoba for a time after the second incident. Later he fell down the banzuke due to injury. Could this bad banzuke luck be a lingering effect of his earlier independent streak? The nail that sticks up gets hammered down sort of treatment? Oyakata have long memories, and perhaps hold grudges. He may be being reminded in a kinda sorta not so suble way that he must continually toe the line, as there will be no breaks of any kind, no quarter given.

Quite possible, but I'd argue that doing such a thing via the banzuke-making would make a mockery of the competition side of Ozumo. They should have fired Tochinoshin outright back then if he's such a thorn in their side. If you let rikishi compete, you've got to provide a fair treatment of the results they achieve. (And for all the focus on Tochinoshin - Tochiozan and especially Homasho have plenty of reason to be upset, too.)

For my own sanity, I prefer to believe that they're simply lazy and/or incompetent rather than vindictive.

[Gurowake 4,109]

No matter how they turn it one guy would have been unlucky and this time it was Tochinoshin.

That's just not true. It's easily possible to arrange it so that everybody in the J1-J5 area receives roughly equal shares of the bad banzuke luck, instead of dumping almost all of it on Tochinoshin and Tosayutaka.

And more generally speaking, to dump bad banzuke luck on the best-performing rikishi involved in a crunch is pretty stupid in its own right. Guess they haven't learned anything from the yaocho scandal.

Yeah, some people have to get screwed somehow, but it makes more sense to screw everyone a little than one guy a lot, unless as mentioned above they have reasons to dislike the guy they're dumping. Asashosakari and I independently came up with guesses for Juryo that I think were 5 one-space swaps off. The actual results differ from those guesses by far more, and mainly with respect to the two mentioned rikishi: we had Tochinoshin in Makuuchi and Tosayutaka ahead of Gagamaru, Shotenro, and Sotairyu. Given the general pattern of how things go, there really shouldn't be any reason why Tosayutaka should be ranked behind those guys. It only makes sense if they literally don't have any boundaries whatsoever at making their decisions besides the obvious.

Of course, there are arguments to be made that financially you're better off getting poor banzuke luck so long as you're not in line for promotion. If Tochinoshin can make it back to sanyaku the few ranks might have cost him one basho, but that's probably 3 basho off at least that he'll have somewhat weaker opponents to make up for it and be generating more mochikyuin credits than he otherwise would have. And the prize money for the Juryo Yusho more than makes up for the missed Makuuchi salary.

[Gurowake 4,109]

For my own sanity, I prefer to believe that they're simply lazy and/or incompetent rather than vindictive.

Having done enough research to try to make sense of the lower division banzuke process, this absolutely is the case. For the Makuuchi banzuke I was generally leaning more towards "Old men arguing about who's better", but this time it's so disgusting that it's far easier to just ascribe it to incompetence. They probably have one guy work on it for 15 minutes, go over it making sure its consistent, but don't bother with whether it's actually fair.