Bench Euro 2012

[Jakusotsu 6,402]

The most 'boring' matches featured Jakusotsu, with an average of 1.33 goals per match. (Yawning...)

Some people call Hakuho's sumo boring. I can live with that. B-)

Cheers for all your hard work, mate!

[Jejima 1,498]

Okay my rule changes for all future Bench Football Tournaments (all but confirmed - unless someone gives a good counter-argument.)

1. (As previously mentioned), in the knock-out stages, the special rules for ® and © teams only apply for extra time, if extra time has actually been played for the corresponding real match. I.e. E.T. ® teams do not have the chains broken if no extra time is played, and E.T. © teams do not score a goal if no extra time is played.

2. (New) For the semi-finals and finals, instead of being forced to make the first time occurrence in a line-up of such an ® or © team, the player is allowed to choose in which slot to play his 'joker'.

E.g. Current rules....

Player: 1. Spain ® 4, 2. Spain 2, 3. Spain 1, 4. Spain 5, 5. Spain 4

® team has to be in the first slot.

New rules....

Player: 1. Spain 4, 2. Spain 2, 3. Spain ® 1, 4. Spain 5, 5. Spain 4

® team has been selected for the third slot.

The same principal would apply for © teams. This allows for a little more tactical positioning for the players who still have their © and/or ® teams left in the competition.

[Jejima 1,498]

Discussion:

1. For the Bench World Cup 2010, players were allowed to pick an additional team in both the ® and © groups. For the Bench Euro 2012, players were only allowed to pick an additional team for the © group.

So, which is the best option?

a) Allow an extra team from both groups

b) Allow an extra team from just the © group

c) Allow no extra teams from either group.

I think I am currently in favour of option b), as it seemed to work well for this tournament.

Having said that, I note that Rubensan (with World Cup champions Spain ®) won the Bench World Cup 2010 - suggesting that having the best ® team, plus an additional 'good pick' gave him an advantage - meaning that option a) might have given him an edge.

Then Chabonowaka has just won the Bench Euro 2012 with Euro champions Spain ©, suggesting that having the best © team, plus an additional 'good pick' (namely Germany), gave him an advantage - so perhaps option b) gave him the edge....

Perhaps, option c) is the fairest? Please discuss ;-)

2. Extra teams

I am strongly in favour of having exactly one extra team pick, for the first round of the knock-out stages for competitions involving 16 teams - so would like to keep that rule.

However....

a) For competitions involving 24 teams (as for the next Euro competition in 2016), and 32 teams (the World Cup), I think I would like to strongly suggest, we allow two extra picks (once before the round of 16, and again before the quarter-finals).

My reasoning for the above two, being the restricted number of Yokozuna and Ozeki picks that we are allowed at the start of the game. I fear too many players would have no teams left in their squads by the time they get to the finals.

3. Special rules for 'Extra Teams'

For this, I am unsure, so would really appreciate feedback.

I can think of 3 options - if you have any other ideas, please suggest.

a) We keep things as they are, and (E) teams are the same as (N) teams.

b) As previously suggested (a long time ago!), (E) teams are weaker than (N) teams. They would (in principal - tables would be made to show all permutations), have their chains broken with a draw (like ® teams), but can only potentially score one goal with a win.

c) Have (E) teams as defensive blocks. They can never score goals (even with a win), but they can stop their opponents from scoring a goal (if the opponent has a © or (N) team), or restrict the opponent to just one goal with an ® team, should they win (and his opponent wins in the same slot.) They would also be able to break chains (with a win or draw) vs a losing team, and break the chain of an ® or © team, if both lose.

Although I like the idea of having special rules for (E) teams, I think I prefer option a) in order to keep things simple.

This is because....

i) It seemed to work this tournament (so why change something that isn't broken?)

ii) It would add yet more complexity to every game - and as we have seen, already the matches are not easy to referee.

iii) It would require yet more tables to account for all possible permuations!

4. A small change to the penalty rules for competitions involving 'real' 3rd vs 4th play-off games....

a) For the World Cup (and for the Olympics - see later post), there are real matches for 3rd vs 4th. Therefore, the rules for the final round of matches in normal and Extra Time for such competitions would be identical to the current rules for Semi-Final matches.

However, the order requested for penalty takers at the last World Cup, was to predict 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 4th (and the time of the first goal). (The reasoning being to get players to predict the winners of the final two matches). However, at the time, this confused several players, as it is a little counter-intuitive. Therefore, I strongly suggest that it is changed to 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, (and time of the first goal) as we would expect.

5. Automation / Semi-Automation

As someone mentioned, this game would be great if it were to be automated ;-) But I fear that only one of us has the full skills (Doitsuyama (I am not worthy...) ) to be able to do this - and as he is already very busy with updating / automating / looking after several sumo games and the sumo reference, it would be far too much to ask him to automate this game as well - especially if it is played so rarely. (I may be wrong - if there is another player with such skills, please announce yourself!)

But, I think there could be a 'compromise' semi-automation, for players making their picks. I.e. they would have drop-down tables in which to make their initial entry, and then to make their entries for each round. (Also entry forms for penalty takers for each round would be a big bonus.) These could then be accessible to the referees, who would then just have to calculate the results. This would avoid possible entry errors for the players - and would make the referees jobs much easier. I think (although I am not one), that a few of us have such skills to create this semi-automation - although some thinking would be required about how to incorporate ®, © and (E) teams into something that would otherwise be (I think) quite straight forward. Any thoughts?

Edited July 3, 2012 by Jejima

[Jejima 1,498]

I seem to have been working on these posts all day (checks watch - yes I have!), but this is the final one (for the time being) on this thread.....

When to play the next Bench football tournament (presuming enough players would like to keep playing....)?

I can see four options.....

In order of time....

1) The men's football at the upcoming Olympics.

This would involve 16 teams (again), and so would be identical (albeit with whatever rule changes) to the just finished Bench Euro 2012 - with the exception that for the final round of matches (when there is a 'Bronze Medal' play-off match), we would use the 'semi-final' rules. Looking at the schedule for the matches, it would be even easier to run (time-wise) than for the past Euro 2012 (and certainly easier than for the World Cup 2010, when the early rounds 'over-lapped' a little.)

The drawbacks with the above are....

• Does anyone actually care about Olympic football? (Coming from England, we never usually* enter a team - as it has to be Great Britain** or nothing, so we choose nothing - so personally, I am not normally interested.)
  
• It helps if you have a 'personal stake' in the competition (i.e. your home team is playing) - and I am not sure if that would be the case. Many of our players are from Germany, but Germany will not be taking part, for example. (The 16 teams are.... Group A: Great Britain, Senegal, UAE and Uruguay, Group B: Mexico, South Korea, Gabon and Switzerland, Group C: Brazil, Egypt, Belarus and New Zealand, Group D: Spain, Japan, Honduras and Morocco). Although, I suppose, if you were playing this game, it might make this championship more interesting ;-)
  
• I plan to be travelling for the whole summer, so would not be able to run it. This would mean that someone / some people would need to volunteer to take over my executive referee role.
  

A 'plus' for the above suggestion, would be that if there were only 12 players 'up for it', we could still hold a competition, but use the Women's Football Competition at the Olympics. (Group E: Great Britain, New Zealand, Cameroon and Brazil, Group F: Japan, Canada, Sweden and South Africa, Group G: USA, France, Colombia and North Korea) Or if there were more than 16 players wanting to play, we could use both the Men's and the Women's competitions, with some players having teams in both, to make up the numbers.....

2) The 2012 - 2013 UEFA Champions League

I like this idea, as the matches are nicely spread out - so plenty of time to do administration. There is also plenty of time to make entries before each round, so 'lack of computer access' should not be a problem. There are plenty of teams that we might have a 'personal stake' in. (All of the German players would (hopefully) not all be after the same team, for example ;-)) Also (a big plus in my mind), there are double the number of group stage matches, which I think are the best aspect for this game.

The drawbacks are as follows:-

• It would require 32 players - it may be hard to drum up this amount of support for the game. (It was a little difficult to get the 32 players necessary for the previous World Cup).
  
• It lasts for the best part of a year. Some players may have family / work / whatever issues, which might mean they would be forced to drop out before the competition's completion - leading to some drones.
  
• I don't think there are any other drawbacks....
  

3) The 2012 - 2013 English premiership

Another idea that I quite like, as all players would face each other exactly twice. We would also have a nice league table. I choose the English Premiership (although it could just as easily be another major division) not because I am English, but because it is (I think) the most popular league around the world. It also 'more competitive' than a number of the other leagues. (I.e. There are probably (these days) 4 or 5 teams with a realistic chance of winning it, plus another 4 or 5 decent teams with an outside chance of winning.... And the mid-level teams (such as Stoke City) can sometimes cause big upsets).

We would only need 20 players for this competition - which I think is achievable. It would be one entry (roughly) every week, which I think is acceptable.

The drawbacks are:-

• Some players might not care less about English football!
  
• Due to postponements of matches (for commitments to other competitions, and perhaps the weather (although rarely the case for most Premiership grounds these days), there might be a lot of delayed results for each round of matches, and a lot of 'overlapping' between the rounds, as teams try to 'catch up'.
  
• It lasts for the best part of a year (see drawback above.)
  

4) The World Cup 2014

This should work just fine - I think - as we have tested the game, and it seems solid (as long as we have enough referees to help out.). (If none of the other ideas above are supported, I will try and remember to resurrect this game in good time before then.)

The drawbacks are:-

• It is a long way, away, so we will have all forgotten the rules. (Like I had done for this competition.)
  
• It is a long way, away, so we miss the opportunity to play this (fun, I hope) game more regularly.
  
• It requires 32 players, which may be difficult to drum up (as for the reason given above.)
  

I think the easiest way to determine support would be to hold a poll.... I will set one up shortly (Aaah! Still another post to make on this topic!).

Okay, here is the poll. (Please can everyone reading this thread take the time to vote - even if you did not play in the Bench Euros, or even the earlier Bench World Cup - we want your votes too!) --> http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=29901&st=

* Okay, we are entering one this year, as we are hosting it.

** Although in reality, it is the United Kingdom*** - not sure why the wrong name is used....

*** There is a real difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom ;-)

Edited July 3, 2012 by Jejima

[Kameumi 1]

Discussion:

1.

I'm all for c) as I find it by far the most balanced of the provided options! Two teams from the same "ranking group" can make the squads unnecessarily 'unbalanced' in my eyes.

2.

I'm actually in favor of NO extra team as I find it somewhat deludes the squads and makes the different squads a bit to homogeneous as most players will have more or less the same opinion about the teams strengths after three played games.

No extra teams would also make players even more invested in the teams of there squads as they know those are the once they have to put there hope in for the entirety of the competition.

The problem with "no teams left to play with" if such would occur, could be solved with simply having more "low and mid ranked teams" in the original squad. Making the entire squad 10, 12 or 14 but with the same number of "top ranked teams" picked for each squad as have been so far (or possibly even less).

3.

If we are to have extra team (which I'm not for) I would prefer option c) here as it have the least effect of my above mentioned worries from the provided options.

4.

No real opinion here

5.

Would obviously be grand, but atleast I got no such skill. Lets hope someone else do. ^^

[Kameumi 1]

When to play the next Bench football tournament (presuming enough players would like to keep playing....)?

Personally I don't really see the Premiership (or any other domestic league) really working duh to the complex and changing and heavy schedule. It would also demand an over average interest in the particular nations top league that I'm guessing is not available.

The Olympics should work purely from an scheduler point of view, but as you pointed out is an really "meh" tournament.

Not many really cares about it, as it's not even played with the top players.

The Champions League could be really successful if the competition starts from first group-stage. As it both a higher level and more international then the domestic league it should be easier to find interested players as-well as the many times better schedule. I can see this one working out really well.

The world-cup is no-brainer for me. Works great, and should definitely be played again. But that does not disqualify other events as the World and Euro cup is so seldom played.

/Two Cents

[Achiyama 1,272]

I seem to have been working on these posts all day (checks watch - yes I have!), but this is the final one (for the time being) on this thread.....

When to play the next Bench football tournament (presuming enough players would like to keep playing....)?

I can see four options.....

In order of time....

1) The men's football at the upcoming Olympics.

This would involve 16 teams (again), and so would be identical (albeit with whatever rule changes) to the just finished Bench Euro 2012 - with the exception that for the final round of matches (when there is a 'Bronze Medal' play-off match), we would use the 'semi-final' rules. Looking at the schedule for the matches, it would be even easier to run (time-wise) than for the past Euro 2012 (and certainly easier than for the World Cup 2010, when the early rounds 'over-lapped' a little.)

The drawbacks with the above are....

• Does anyone actually care about Olympic football? (Coming from England, we never usually* enter a team - as it has to be Great Britain** or nothing, so we choose nothing - so personally, I am not normally interested.)
  
• It helps if you have a 'personal stake' in the competition (i.e. your home team is playing) - and I am not sure if that would be the case. Many of our players are from Germany, but Germany will not be taking part, for example. (The 16 teams are.... Group A: Great Britain, Senegal, UAE and Uruguay, Group B: Mexico, South Korea, Gabon and Switzerland, Group C: Brazil, Egypt, Belarus and New Zealand, Group D: Spain, Japan, Honduras and Morocco). Although, I suppose, if you were playing this game, it might make this championship more interesting ;-)
  
• I plan to be travelling for the whole summer, so would not be able to run it. This would mean that someone / some people would need to volunteer to take over my executive referee role.
  

A 'plus' for the above suggestion, would be that if there were only 12 players 'up for it', we could still hold a competition, but use the Women's Football Competition at the Olympics. (Group E: Great Britain, New Zealand, Cameroon and Brazil, Group F: Japan, Canada, Sweden and South Africa, Group G: USA, France, Colombia and North Korea) Or if there were more than 16 players wanting to play, we could use both the Men's and the Women's competitions, with some players having teams in both, to make up the numbers.....

2) The 2012 - 2013 UEFA Champions League

I like this idea, as the matches are nicely spread out - so plenty of time to do administration. There is also plenty of time to make entries before each round, so 'lack of computer access' should not be a problem. There are plenty of teams that we might have a 'personal stake' in. (All of the German players would (hopefully) not all be after the same team, for example ;-)) Also (a big plus in my mind), there are double the number of group stage matches, which I think are the best aspect for this game.

The drawbacks are as follows:-

• It would require 32 players - it may be hard to drum up this amount of support for the game. (It was a little difficult to get the 32 players necessary for the previous World Cup).
  
• It lasts for the best part of a year. Some players may have family / work / whatever issues, which might mean they would be forced to drop out before the competition's completion - leading to some drones.
  
• I don't think there are any other drawbacks....
  

3) The 2012 - 2013 English premiership

Another idea that I quite like, as all players would face each other exactly twice. We would also have a nice league table. I choose the English Premiership (although it could just as easily be another major division) not because I am English, but because it is (I think) the most popular league around the world. It also 'more competitive' than a number of the other leagues. (I.e. There are probably (these days) 4 or 5 teams with a realistic chance of winning it, plus another 4 or 5 decent teams with an outside chance of winning.... And the mid-level teams (such as Stoke City) can sometimes cause big upsets).

We would only need 20 players for this competition - which I think is achievable. It would be one entry (roughly) every week, which I think is acceptable.

The drawbacks are:-

• Some players might not care less about English football!
  
• Due to postponements of matches (for commitments to other competitions, and perhaps the weather (although rarely the case for most Premiership grounds these days), there might be a lot of delayed results for each round of matches, and a lot of 'overlapping' between the rounds, as teams try to 'catch up'.
  
• It lasts for the best part of a year (see drawback above.)
  

4) The World Cup 2014

This should work just fine - I think - as we have tested the game, and it seems solid (as long as we have enough referees to help out.). (If none of the other ideas above are supported, I will try and remember to resurrect this game in good time before then.)

The drawbacks are:-

• It is a long way, away, so we will have all forgotten the rules. (Like I had done for this competition.)
  
• It is a long way, away, so we miss the opportunity to play this (fun, I hope) game more regularly.
  
• It requires 32 players, which may be difficult to drum up (as for the reason given above.)
  

I think the easiest way to determine support would be to hold a poll.... I will set one up shortly (Aaah! Still another post to make on this topic!).

Okay, here is the poll. (Please can everyone reading this thread take the time to vote - even if you did not play in the Bench Euros, or even the earlier Bench World Cup - we want your votes too!) --> http://www.sumoforum...topic=29901&st=

* Okay, we are entering one this year, as we are hosting it.

** Although in reality, it is the United Kingdom*** - not sure why the wrong name is used....

*** There is a real difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom ;-)

I don't know about the Olympics - the teams are usually made of young players, and I don't think it will be interesting.

Instead of the Premier League, maybe a better option is the UEFA Europa League - but there are more teams than the UEFA Champions League, because after the groups - the knock-out phase starts with a round of 32, 16, 1/4, 1/2 and Final.

I would toss in the mix:

1.) The Africa Cup of Nations - it is held every 2 years in odd years - 2013, 2015..etc (16-team format)

There are some good African teams, and many African players are members of elite European club teams.

Just to note, not to mistaken this competition with the African Nation Championships, which are held in even years 2012, 2014 etc. This competition is not so interesting, because players who play in clubs in other countries (even in other african countries) are not allowed to participate.

2.) The Copa America (South American Championships) - held in 4 years cycle, - so the next competition is in 2015 (12-team format - 3 groups of 4 teams).

Edited July 4, 2012 by Achiyama

[Asashosakari 20,290]

Instead of the Premier League, maybe a better option is the UEFA Europa League - but there are more teams than the UEFA Champions League, because after the groups - the knock-out phase starts with a round of 32, 16, 1/4, 1/2 and Final.

Third-placed Champions League teams get shuttled down to the Europa League after the group stages, which would mean 8 automatic drones (without team selections!) in the EL knockout stages unless for some reason players would actually want to join the game at that stage.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Asashosakari

[Doitsuyama 1,263]

Instead of the Premier League, maybe a better option is the UEFA Europa League - but there are more teams than the UEFA Champions League, because after the groups - the knock-out phase starts with a round of 32, 16, 1/4, 1/2 and Final.

Third-placed Champions League teams get shuttled down to the Europa League after the group stages, which would mean 8 automatic drones (without team selections!) in the EL knockout stages unless for some reason players would actually want to join the game at that stage.

Where's the problem? Since the CL will surely be played (if the EL is getting action) just let the third placed teams go the Bench EL...

Edit: On second thought, team selections still are a problem for both groups of EL finalists.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Doitsuyama

[Asashosakari 20,290]

Where's the problem? Since the CL will surely be played (if the EL is getting action) just let the third placed teams go the Bench EL...

I made the bold assumption that it's CL or EL that would be played, not both.

Free of all constraints, I really like the idea of playing a domestic league since I share in Jejima's impression that group stage play is vastly superior to knockout play. Unfortunately, as mentioned in the poll thread, I do have that "don't actually care about league football" constraint, so the question is moot for me.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Asashosakari

[Achiyama 1,272]

Where's the problem? Since the CL will surely be played (if the EL is getting action) just let the third placed teams go the Bench EL...

I made the bold assumption that it's CL or EL that would be played, not both.

I asumed that CL will be played. EL I proposed to repalce the Premier League game, which Jejima was offering for discussion.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Achiyama