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Kintamayama

Scandal fallout

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I can't imagine how the Kyokai will come up with concrete measures to combat "the problem" until we can define just what the real problem is. And I don't know how they are going to figure that out if they are spending all of their time and energy on trying to hold a basho.

Now that the door has slammed shut on live broadcasts, it may not open again for a very long time...

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Now does it exist beyond doubt? Is it rumored to exist? I mean, if the yakuza is into it, there must have been a market big enough , so there should me more than just rumors.

Reminder-illegal gambling within sumo was just a rumor a few weeks ago as well.

I was under the impression that many people in Japan knew that illegal baseball betting existed, and that there is a large baseball betting marekt run by yakuza. The only news was that sumotori were participating in those bets. Or did I get it all wrong, and rikishi were more or less the only people in Japan who gambled on baseball results?

No, you got it absolutely right. Just like rumors on sumo betting exist, so did rumors on baseball betting by rikishi exist. These rumors turned out to be true. Perhaps in the future, the sumo yaocho rumors would turn out to be true as well. I'm pretty sure that it's more than rumors. I would be bold enough to say that many people in Japan know that betting on sumo exists. Baseball is far more popular than sumo, so it's probably less people who know, but still..

Reminder: I was 100% sure NHK would broadcast.

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I can't imagine how the Kyokai will come up with concrete measures to combat "the problem" until we can define just what the real problem is. And I don't know how they are going to figure that out if they are spending all of their time and energy on trying to hold a basho.

Now that the door has slammed shut on live broadcasts, it may not open again for a very long time...

Except that their boss said it was a one-off thing during the press conference.

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Incidently, Kotomitsuki's name is nowhere to be found on the sumo.goo.ne.jp website banzuke. Have they ever removed a name that was on the official banzuke before?

Yes, Roho and Hakurozan were on the printed banzuke but got removed from the online version.

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I think that they were quicker about removing the Russians. Kotomitsuki was there when I imported the banzuke into my own database, and that wasn't until quite late in the day Japanese time.

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I can't imagine how the Kyokai will come up with concrete measures to combat "the problem" until we can define just what the real problem is. And I don't know how they are going to figure that out if they are spending all of their time and energy on trying to hold a basho.

Now that the door has slammed shut on live broadcasts, it may not open again for a very long time...

Except that their boss said it was a one-off thing during the press conference.

We shall see.

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I think that they were quicker about removing the Russians.

FWIW, Doitsuyama's banzuke post for Aki 2008 still featured the brothers, nearly 48 hours after the banzuke release. (Of course it's possible it was imported earlier than that.)

They were also on the Nikkan Sports banzuke initially, which comes out a week after the real thing, then removed a few days later. I don't recall when exactly the brothers were dismissed, so I'm not sure if Nikkan was simply slow.

Edit: It was Sep 8, a week after the banzuke release.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Musashigawa has fallen ill again due to high blood pressure and is confined to his house.

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Incidently, Kotomitsuki's name is nowhere to be found on the sumo.goo.ne.jp website banzuke. Have they ever removed a name that was on the official banzuke before?

Not totally correct... he was there when I grabbed the banzuke for Sumo Reference yesterday, just as it was online. I believe it was a dumb move not to white him out, like they did several times recently. I think I will let him stay on the Sumo Reference banzuke, since he is on the printed banzuke...

from what I think I understand by the gyoji who talked to me is that the banzuke was done and printed already. They would have had to white each one out. In other times it was not actually printed and they were able to white out the names.

**again this is just what I understood in the conversation... I could be wrong. It makes sense though. **

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from what I think I understand by the gyoji who talked to me is that the banzuke was done and printed already. They would have had to white each one out. In other times it was not actually printed and they were able to white out the names.

**again this is just what I understood in the conversation... I could be wrong. It makes sense though. **

Too lazy or too frugal to print it a second time? I don't believe it couldn't be done if they really wanted to go through with it.

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from what I think I understand by the gyoji who talked to me is that the banzuke was done and printed already. They would have had to white each one out. In other times it was not actually printed and they were able to white out the names.

**again this is just what I understood in the conversation... I could be wrong. It makes sense though. **

Too lazy or too frugal to print it a second time? I don't believe it couldn't be done if they really wanted to go through with it.

We just had a couple of Banzuke with an empty spot a few bashos ago, no (Tokitsuumi?)? Which means not only can it be done, but it actually was.

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We just had a couple of Banzuke with an empty spot a few bashos ago, no (Tokitsuumi?)? Which means not only can it be done, but it actually was.

The old Tokitsukaze was banished less than two weeks after the banzuke meeting, so the new (original) banzuke wasn't even completed. In any case, it was a different situation: The Tokitsuumi gap was a true empty spot because they didn't want to have him twice on the banzuke, so it was based on administrative measures; all the other cases of empty spots (including a hypothetical Kotomitsuki now) involve "outlaws".

As for those cases: Wakakirin also was dismissed very shortly after a basho. The closest case was that of Wakanoho, dismissed 22 days after the banzuke formation meeting, 11 days before the banzuke publication. I have no idea how long it takes to print 423,000 banzuke sheets, or how long in advance such a large print job needs to be arranged, but I doubt it can be done over a single weekend. The investigation committee's decision to demand Kotomitsuki and Otake's dismissal was only a couple of days before the original banzuke release date, so obviously the whole run had been printed already. Perhaps there would have been time to re-do it, assuming it takes less than 7 days, but that would have required the Kyokai leadership to be sure they wouldn't find a way around that demand (and also that these two would remain the only people to be fired).

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We just had a couple of Banzuke with an empty spot a few bashos ago, no (Tokitsuumi?)? Which means not only can it be done, but it actually was.

The old Tokitsukaze was banished less than two weeks after the banzuke meeting, so the new (original) banzuke wasn't even completed. In any case, it was a different situation: The Tokitsuumi gap was a true empty spot because they didn't want to have him twice on the banzuke, so it was based on administrative measures; all the other cases of empty spots (including a hypothetical Kotomitsuki now) involve "outlaws".

As for those cases: Wakakirin also was dismissed very shortly after a basho. The closest case was that of Wakanoho, dismissed 22 days after the banzuke formation meeting, 11 days before the banzuke publication. I have no idea how long it takes to print 423,000 banzuke sheets, or how long in advance such a large print job needs to be arranged, but I doubt it can be done over a single weekend. The investigation committee's decision to demand Kotomitsuki and Otake's dismissal was only a couple of days before the original banzuke release date, so obviously the whole run had been printed already. Perhaps there would have been time to re-do it, assuming it takes less than 7 days, but that would have required the Kyokai leadership to be sure they wouldn't find a way around that demand (and also that these two would remain the only people to be fired).

a huge print job indeed!!!! there wasn't enough time I'm assuming and from the official dismissal & the new banzuke date I don't think there was time... or that is what I understand....

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No broadcast? No sponsors. Coca Cola and Zen-noh will not be presenting yusho trophies in Nagoya. Additionally, all house arrest sekitori's nobori were removed from the venue.

Edited by Kintamayama

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First off - I have no concrete insider knowledge. What I do have is years of hearsay from insiders - mainly beat reporters. But it is hearsay about other topics that has in most cases turned out to be true.

So while I can't say that yaocho and betting on sumo are reality, I'd say that there is a large likelihood of betting and related matchfixing in sumo.

Why? Because the environment for it to thrive is already there:

1) Existing relationships between wrestlers/stables and illegal gambling syndicates/mobsters.

2) Strong financial reasons - whether to pay off gambling debts or to line their mawashi - for sekitori to cooperate.

3) The absence of what in business would be called the NSK's 'corporate philosophy' or something like that. The NSK has shown time and again that it puts money above ethical considerations. Wrestlers have few incentives to behave otherwise.

4) Huge possibilities and little risk. A wrestler goes down/steps out/flubs their tachiai and no one knows.

It's not going to be reported because no one will go on the record, ever. But rationally, it has to exist.

Edited by James H

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First off - I have no concrete insider knowledge. What I do have is years of hearsay from insiders - mainly beat reporters. But it is hearsay about other topics that has in most cases turned out to be true.

So while I can't say that yaocho and betting on sumo are reality, I'd say that there is a large likelihood of betting and related matchfixing in sumo.

Why? Because the environment for it to thrive is already there:

1) Existing relationships between wrestlers/stables and illegal gambling syndicates/mobsters.

2) Strong financial reasons - whether to pay off gambling debts or to line their mawashi - for sekitori to cooperate.

3) The absence of what in business would be called the NSK's 'corporate philosophy' or something like that. The NSK has shown time and again that it puts money above ethical considerations. Wrestlers have few incentives to behave otherwise.

4) Huge possibilities and little risk. A wrestler goes down/steps out/flubs their tachiai and no one knows.

It's not going to be reported because no one will go on the record, ever. But rationally, it has to exist.

Your four reasons are well received and all. But as I understand the biggest question is if there really is a big enough (to make yaocho worth the risk) illegal betting on Sumo going on in Japan. You didn't exactly help to bring light to that - just assuming it as a premise. Maybe you can elaborate on that as I think it shouldn't stay just an undiscussed premise?

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I think that they were quicker about removing the Russians.

FWIW, Doitsuyama's banzuke post for Aki 2008 still featured the brothers, nearly 48 hours after the banzuke release. (Of course it's possible it was imported earlier than that.)

They were also on the Nikkan Sports banzuke initially, which comes out a week after the real thing, then removed a few days later. I don't recall when exactly the brothers were dismissed, so I'm not sure if Nikkan was simply slow.

Edit: It was Sep 8, a week after the banzuke release.

It serves me right for not even checking. I just "remembered". D'oh.

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Now does it exist beyond doubt? Is it rumored to exist? I mean, if the yakuza is into it, there must have been a market big enough , so there should me more than just rumors.

Reminder-illegal gambling within sumo was just a rumor a few weeks ago as well.

I was under the impression that many people in Japan knew that illegal baseball betting existed, and that there is a large baseball betting marekt run by yakuza. The only news was that sumotori were participating in those bets. Or did I get it all wrong, and rikishi were more or less the only people in Japan who gambled on baseball results?

apparently you got it wrong and only rikishi gamble on baseball.

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It appears that none of the prizes, not even the Emperor's Cup, will be presented to the winner on Senshuraku. Yet another first for this most auspicious of basho.

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It appears that none of the prizes, not even the Emperor's Cup, will be presented to the winner on Senshuraku. Yet another first for this most auspicious of basho.

All prizes declined by the Kyokai itself.

Edited by Kintamayama

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Great one.....what about Jonokuchi-boy?

Won't he get his certificate? (Applauding...)

if so->...reactionary BS IMHO

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It appears that none of the prizes, not even the Emperor's Cup, will be presented to the winner on Senshuraku. Yet another first for this most auspicious of basho.

All prizes declined by the Kyokai itself.

I just don't understand. Does the Kyokai really think that holding the basho is so important that it is worth all of this grief and embarrassment?

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I just don't understand. Does the Kyokai really think that holding the basho is so important that it is worth all of this grief and embarrassment?

Yes. Duh.

I suppose much like their geriatric fans they're made of "sterner stuff" than you want to give them credit for. What's this little crisis to an organization that continued with its tournaments behind closed doors during a war, eh?

Edited by Asashosakari

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It appears that none of the prizes, not even the Emperor's Cup, will be presented to the winner on Senshuraku. Yet another first for this most auspicious of basho.

All prizes declined by the Kyokai itself.

Do you think that part of the problem could be that without tv coverage there is no reason to hand out prizes on tv as the prize sponsors won't get any advertising?

Keep in mind I have not watched Senshuraku on TV in so many years that I don't know how much of the prize part is covered on TV. Honestly can not remember.

Or because many sponsors of the prizes are withdrawing and instead of reporting how many are gone it is less embarrassing to go with none??

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Great one.....what about Jonokuchi-boy?

Won't he get his certificate? (Applauding...)

if so->...reactionary BS IMHO

he'll get it I'm sure just in the shitakubeya...

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