Could Asashoryu become the best of all time?

[Oikeassa 0]

It seems to me that evidence is accumulating that Asashoryu could possibly turn out to be the best sumotori of all time. He's certainly not there yet--and much could happen to derail his progress, but consider these recent factors:

(1) He is dominating this basho. Domination, of course, is relative to the competition--and the quality of competition is not that great right now. (However, would more competition make him even more dtermined and committed?)

(2) As described by Thierry on the SML, Asashoryu--despite his current dominance--probably trains harder than any other sumotori. No one on the scene seems able to match his combination of strength and agility. He's training against himself and continuing to improve.

(3) Most of the others seem to really fear him--and that gives him an advantage before the match even starts. Fear is not just of injury (a la Takamisakari) but also of embarrassment (a la Kotomiksuki--who's currently in second place in the yusho race despite being droped like a sack of potatoes).

(4) His attitude, concentration, and yokozuna "presence" all seem to have greatly improved.

(5) He's 24.

Almost all of you know more about Sumo than I do. What do you think?

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

"Best of all time" is a very subjective matter, but there is hardly any doubt that Asashoryu COULD reach a level where he is part of the discussion on that issue (although someone will always drag out Tanikaze or Raiden however dominating Asashoryu is the next 10 years...). However, it's not as if he is the first one fulfilling the criteria above and while some of them who did are among the ones seen as the best, not everyone by far. Time will simply have to tell and a lot can happen during the period Asashoryu will have to accumulate some 30 more yusho. The odds are quickly going down on him being the dominating figure of the first decade of the 3rd millenium though.

Edited January 22, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Kashunowaka 300]

(5) He's 24.

Almost all of you know more about Sumo than I do. What do you think?

I think Asashoryu is 23.

[Yoma 0]

Most of what you say doesn't make him the best of all time but merely the best of today.

Others have won several zensho-yusho, others were younger when they were promoted to yokozuna, all great yokozuna were feared by their opponents and they all have trained hard.

IMHO he'll win 15-25 yusho, but he won't become the best of all time.

[Fujisan 533]

He can certainly go on to be one of the greatest if not the greatest,he still has some learning to do but he has the time.

All the great Yokozunas where successful in their early 20s.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Sekitori fear each other?

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

It's far too early to tell. He's already in a good, select group. But to approach some of the people mention on the "Top 20" thread in this forum, he needs to continue at this level for at least another 7-8 years I think.

[Mark Buckton 1]

The only possible answer to the question is YES - he could. Will he? Now that's a different question entirely and enough of the linguistic hair splitting for now.

Asa isn't good. Asa is bloody good. Asa today is great. I hope he goes the whole hog and is still around when those who dislike him for what he is on the YDC are pushing up daisies.

Good luck to the man. Of the rest of Sanyaku - all now too old to ever consider themselves a possibility for such honors.

Saying that - you boys heard of the 16-year-old Shibuya-kun in Sandanme. Blazing a trail at 5-1 (S92/93?)

Now if he ever becomes a hot number ANR is going to be able to say - 'there goes the bloke that cleaned my bicycle and held my brolly when it rained.

If only.

ANR

[Tony 16]

Who knows? But a yokozuna is not only on the dohyo. Out it's also very important.

[Oikeassa 0]

If I might rephrase my question in a different way: At this point of his career, is Asashoryu the best of all time? Some comparisons seem to refute it.

Looking at some of the leading yusho winners of all time (and assuming Asashoryu wins this current yusho for his #5), at what age did some of those the other top yusho winners get their #5?

Takanohana: Won #5 at age 21. His last (#22) came at age 28.

Kitanoumi: Won #5 at age 22. His last (#24) came at age 31.

Chitonofuji: Won #5 at age 26. His last (#31) came at age 35.

Taiho: Won #5 at age 21. His last (#32) came at age 30.

I guess that answers my question: Asashoryu has fallen behind and better get it in gear if he is to make it in this business!

[Yoma 0]

Who knows? But a yokozuna is not only on the dohyo. Out it's also very important.

Considering that, the last few weeks weren't Asa's most sucessful ones in his career so far. So many little mistakes....

(Oops! ) Missed Former Takasago's funeral

(Oops! ) Didn't show up for keiko

(Oops! ) Didin't show up for tsunauchi-shiki

(Oops! ) went out wearing a suit instead of traditional clothes

;-) :-D :-D

Edited January 22, 2004 by Yoma

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

Who said these were mistakes?

As for Tony-zeki's remark that

Who knows? But a yokozuna is not only on the dohyo. Out it's also very important.

I agree that has traditionally been the case: the yokozuna is expected to hold a high stand of honor, integrity, respect, and sportsmanship. At least one yokozuna didn't abide by these standards and was "asked" to resign. Adachinoryu-zeki's market research in the "Top 20" thread also agrees with this.

But here we might have a case of Asashoryu thinking:

- I'm the only yokozuna and best sumotori

- The population of the sport is dwindling, they need a yokozuna

- So I can do pretty much what I please as long as my actions on the dohyo speak for themselves

As Asashoryu is not Japanese, I doubt his bond to sumo tradition as as strong. It's more of a profession to him than it is to some others.

These are all my thoughts, I obviously don't know Asashoryu or any other rikishi personally, but this seems possible, no?

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

As Asashoryu is not Japanese, I doubt his bond to sumo tradition as as strong.  It's more of a profession to him than it is to some others.

I think the ethnical issue is emphasized too much. Futahaguro showed similar faults and he was Japanese. Some features don't have to do with where you're born.

Edited January 22, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Who said these were mistakes?

You honestly think they aren't, huh?

[Kintamayama 47,188]

I think the ethnical issue is emphasized too much. Futahaguro showed similar faults and he was Japanese. Some features don't have to do with where you're born.

I wouldn't compare Asa's indiscretions to Futahaguro's just yet, although we may eventually get there.... And of course, Futa was promoted without ever winning a Yusho for whatever reasons deemed fit back then, so not only was he unsuited out of the dohyo, but he was far from suited in the dohyo.

[Takanobaka 0]

It's far too early to tell. He's already in a good, select group. But to approach some of the people mention on the "Top 20" thread in this forum, he needs to continue at this level for at least another 7-8 years I think.

Nah, using the parameters set by that list (i.e. only rikishi who were active after starting 6 Basho format), he can be in the top 20 by the end of the year. If he wins his fifth today or tomorrow (it will be before the end of the Basho), then he's already won as many Yusho as a couple of the guys up there, and is definately more dominant for this period than any of those guys were for their periods. I guess it also depends on what else happens though. If he wins 4 Basho this year, then gets critically injured and has to retire, he'd be on the list. If he wins 4 Basho this year and then gets booted for smashing up Rijicho's car with a baseball bat, then probably not....

[Jesinofuji 11]

Sure, Asashoryu could easily finish his career strong enough to be a part of all time best discussions. Barring a miracle, he will have his 5th yusho being just barely 23. Compareable to the other greats. 2004 might just be a sweep year for him. Yes, thats right, he could easily win all 6 yusho this year! And who knows, next year could be the same. Unless he is injured, he should be the favorite going into all of them.

As for his "mistakes"? I think its just a case of the zealous Japanese media trying to make a story. Didn't show up for funeral --a simple mistake with timing. He thought the funeral was a different time. Who here has never made mistakes like that? No keiko? Well, looks like he didn't need them now did he? Going outside in a suit? Oh the horror!

Asashoryu is a very respectable human being and a godlike sumotori. People who hate him that much can just bug off. He's SPOILER EDIT OUT... He will be an all time great both in the dohyou and out.

Edited January 22, 2004 by Jesinofuji

[Zentoryu 154]

Asashoryu is a very respectable human being and a godlike sumotori. People who hate him that much can just bug off. He's SPOILER EDIT OUT... He will be an all time great both in the dohyou and out.

If he doesn't get himself kicked out of the Kyokai in the meantime. Or if he doesn't get so sick of the critisism that he quits...

I don't think he'll win every single Yusho for the next two years. That's being overly optimistic. But I can picture him winning at least three or more per year, barring injury.

He could be the best of all time, the question is will he?

[Mark Buckton 1]

Who knows? But a yokozuna is not only on the dohyo. Out it's also very important.

Considering that, the last few weeks weren't Asa's most sucessful ones in his career so far. So many little mistakes....

(Oops! ) Missed Former Takasago's funeral

(Oops! ) Didn't show up for keiko

(Oops! ) Didin't show up for tsunauchi-shiki

(Oops! ) went out wearing a suit instead of traditional clothes

;-) :-D :-D

I've quoted Yoma-san above but will say the following.

The mistakes are bad in the world of sumo BUT, and this is from a monster huge sumo fan who doesn't really like Asa, is a Japanese friend and whose reading of Japanese is a million times better than ANR of course.

The funeral. Asa had left BEFORE the guy died!

The suit. Was apparently worn in Mongolia!

Can't confirm #2 but #1 was seemingly confirmed by English lang media here if I remember!

ANR

Edit - #2 confirmed in Eng lang J/newspapers

Edited January 22, 2004 by Adachinoryu

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

If he wins 4 Basho this year and then gets booted for smashing up Rijicho's car with a baseball bat, then probably not....

That might make me change my mind about the guy though ;-)

[Oikeassa 0]

"Take advantage of the 'Akebono boom'", "refuses to be naturalized", "low kicks and other fouls" "eats at the lodging house of the Japan Professional Wrestling Association", . . . Oh, god!

From www.japantoday.com

Bad boy Asashoryu has sumo world worried

Asashoryu, the Mongolian-born sumo grand champion, can't seem to shake off his bad-boy image. There is even a prevailing rumor that he might be turning to the world of K-1.

At the end of last year he didn't show up for the funeral of stablemaster Takasago, preferring to stay in Mongolia. He also skipped the first three days of training and the weaving of rope ceremony earlier this month.

Asashoryu is now widely recognized as skating on thin ice. Japan Sumo Association (JSA) official Tsuneo Watanabe declared that Asashoryu will have to fall in line or face forced retirement.

According to one JSA member, "Everybody in the sumo association is upset. They are concerned that Asashoryu might take advantage of the 'Akebono boom' and quit sumo for wrestling. That would leave sumo without a yokozuna. Most people think Asashoryu has been spoiled too much. He also refuses to be naturalized, contrary to the rules of becoming a grand champion."

One senior wrestler said: "Asashoryu is known for his Spartan training of younger wrestlers, but at the same time for frequently used punches, low kicks and other fouls. I believe he can't tell the difference between the sumo and K-1 rings."

The rumors of Asashoryu turning to K-1 come from his close ties with the Japan Professional Wrestling Association. His brother wrestles under the name of "Blue Wolf."

"In fact, Asashoryu more often eats at the lodging house of the Japan Professional Wrestling Association than at his sumo stable," said a member of the Takasago stable. "He even injured his neck once while he was sparring with pro wrestlers and had to pull out of a tournament."

Asashoryu's worship of Akebono, a former sumo grand champion, is also fueling the JSA's concern. "Akebono and Asashoryu are sort of like brothers, being foreign participants in sumo. I think Akebono counted on Asashoryu's ties to the professional wrestling world to get started as a wrestler."

Now there are rumors that Akebono is trying to establish a new group of wrestlers with Asashoryu, and that Asashoryu said while having dinner with a TV sports executive that he wants to join the TV world as Akebono did. Maybe we are seeing the birth of K-1's newest bad boy. (Translated by Emiko Ichikawa)

January 22, 2004

[Kintamayama 47,188]

"Take advantage of the 'Akebono boom'", "refuses to be naturalized", "low kicks and other fouls" "eats at the lodging house of the Japan Professional Wrestling Association", . . . Oh, god!

From www.japantoday.com

etc..

Translated from a famous rag of course.. So much nonsense in one article that it's quite funny actually..

OTOH, when the time comes, I'm completely, totally convinced he won't remain a second in the folds of the Kyokai, and will go after the big money rolling around out there, whether it be proresu, K1 or rodeo.

[Naganoyama 6,028]

Who knows? But a yokozuna is not only on the dohyo. Out it's also very important.

Considering that, the last few weeks weren't Asa's most sucessful ones in his career so far. So many little mistakes....

(Oops! ) Missed Former Takasago's funeral

(Oops! ) Didn't show up for keiko

(Oops! ) Didin't show up for tsunauchi-shiki

(Oops! ) went out wearing a suit instead of traditional clothes

:-D :-P :-S

You missed an important one. He embarrassed his Oyakata. He will need Takasago's support in full measure in the days to come to absorb some of the heat from the YDC. Best not to alienate him.

[Naganoyama 6,028]

... and then gets booted for smashing up Rijicho's car with a baseball bat, then probably not....

For various reasons, some of them obvious, Kitanoumi Rijicho has often come out in support of Asashoryu. Now alienating HIM would, as you suggest, be suicidal!

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

Hmm.. I see your arguments, and they make sense. But which would be more "suicidal" (I'm not happy with the term): for Asashoryu to alienate Takasago-oyakata, or for the NSK to make its only Yokozuna retire?