TochiHenkaZuma

[Iwagakki 0]

In the interest of fair play, and courtesy, I am going to define "Henka" for all you poor clueless people out there.

Article A: Conditions in which an official Henka can occur.

1. A henka can only occur on odd numbered days, in the months of June, July and October.

2. Similar tactics which occur, or are employed, at times other than those listed above, will not be considered Henka by the Japan Sumo Association, and will rather be recognized as "UHLM," or "Unidentified Henka-Like Maneuvers."

3. A Henka can only occur when the party of the first part, hereafter referred to as "the Henker" and the party of the second part, hereafter referred to as "the Henkee" both meet the following conditions:

a. The "Henker" must outweigh the "Henkee" by at least 64 Kilograms, according to the latest available data published by the Japan Sumo Association Department of Weights and Heights.

b. The "Henkee" must be more than 13.5 centimeters taller than the "Henker"

c. In which case neither conditions are met, a Henka may still take place if the following conditions are met.

1. The "Henkee", is ranked lower than the "Henker," and;

2. The "Henker" is ranked lower than the "Henkee," and;

3. The "Henker", is left handed, and;

4. The Gyoji is above the age of 29.

4. Additionally, a henka may occur in contradiction to Article A, rules 1, and 3a, and 3c (1) and (3) in the following circumstances:

a. The "Henker" is both Higher ranked , and less popular than the "henkee"

b. The "Henkee" is both Higher Rated and more popular than the "Henker"

c. Both conditions 4a and 4b exist.

5. Under no circumstance should Article A, Section 4 be considered to supersede Article A Section 3, or vice-versa.

Article B: Conditions under which an official Henka can not occur.

1. A recognized henka can not occur on odd numbered days in the months of August, January and April.

2 A recognized henka can not occur on Christmas, New Years Eve, or on February 30th.

3. A recognized Henka can not occur on the Emperors birthday, or the days immediately before, or after the Emperors birthday.

4. A Henka can not occur on the evening of the Full moon.

5. A henka can not occur when the "Henker" is more handsome than the "Henkee" unless the "Henkee" is more handsome than the "Henker" according to the Japan Sumo Association Department of Handsome-ness and Popularity.

Article C: Procedure for Determining Henka Probability by Japan Sumo Association Department of Tactics Analysis and Categorization.

1. Upon completion of a "Just Cause" inquiry, by the Committee on Henka Inquiries, a maneuver will be referred to the Japan Sumo Association Commission on Henka Arbitration, for review as to whether it conforms to Article A.

2 If a Maneuver is found to conform to Article A, it will be referred to the Japan Sumo Association Office of Article B Regulation, for review.

3. Upon Completion of the review by the office of Article B Regulation, a determination will be made on whether to investigate the incident as a Henka, or as some other "UHLM"

Article D: The Definition of Henka

1. If all the above conditions above are met, the determination of whether a Henka has indeed occurred, will be conducted on the following definition of henka.

a. the "Henker" intentionally moves to the left, at any time up to 17.3 seconds after the tachiai.

b. The "Henker" moves to the right at any time up to 12.1 seconds after the tachiai, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

c. The "Henkee" has intentionally moved forward at the tachiai with a force equal to or greater than 37 percent of the total force that the "henkee" is capable of exerting, according to the Japan Sumo Association Department of Forceful Exertions.

d. The "Henker" touches the Neck, Left arm, or Right thigh of the "Henkee" whether intentionally or unintentionally.

e. The "Henker" intentionally moves forward with an amount of force that is equal too or less than 61 percent of the force that the "Henker" is capable of of exerting, according to the Japan Sumo Association Department of Forceful Exertions.

f. The "Henkee" touches the calf, ankle, foot or Mawashi before the "Henker", meets the requirements of section D 1 (d) above

Well, there you have it, the definitive proof that Tochiazuma did commit a Henka. Oh, wait a second, No he didn't. Wait now, yeah, according to...uh, yeah, no, he did(n't)

:-D

have a nice day everyone.

[Asashosakari 20,223]

I asked my Japanese inlaws about this one and they say henka.

The fact that heads meet in no way effects the sideways motion used to avoid full contact.The screen shots shown display sideways motion.Infact it may indicates a poor henka attempt as the head could not avoid contact.

Either poor, or unplanned, or if planned, perhaps obstructed by Miya's tachiai being even worse than 'azuma expected...who knows.

The Japanese I talk with have not a problem with henka.It is an established sumo technique.The reason for the henka is more important.i.e. Is he using his greater mobility?Is he injured?Is he scared? e.t.c.

That's pretty much what the thread was actually about in the beginning, I guess (before the, erm, slight degeneration :-D )...the rigid automatism of "henka = bad" vs. "it depends on the circumstances". Looks like at least your Japanese inlaws and acquaintances agree with the latter, so maybe this forum as a whole isn't quite so far off the mark, after all. And maybe we'll even call it a henka next time it happens. :-D

[Asashosakari 20,223]

2.

Edited September 16, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

There's a silly (to me) little game called pes

Edited September 16, 2003 by Kotoseiya Yuichi

[Ryunokaze 0]

Lets just say he moved in a manner so to avoid full contact.Call it henka or not.Thats what he did.(tochiazuma).

Ship...Juryo`s on.seeya.

All the best.

[Chiyozakura 163]

Now we have the classic situation again...he is still in the kokugikan so it is no henka...ok!

The pictures show that Azuma is already moving to the right so it is a henka. He does not face Miyabi head on. This is not entertaining sumo. But it is a win for Azuma, and for a kadoban Ozeki this is what counts. I can fully understand his henka as he is fighting for his rank with the toughest guys still to come. But it is not good sumo, and if he wants to establish himself as a good Ozeki he should do less henka...

Btw: I am no Tochiazuma fan and I still think that his henka in that play-off was the worst thing he could have done. But he also is an outstanding rikishi and I hope that he comes back to his old form and fights for Yusho again, maybe winning one decisively.

[Ryunokaze 0]

I think it is close to pointless to argue the merits of henka.It is sumo as surely as the use of yotsu is sumo.Its a lot like saying it wasn`t yotsu(or any other technique)so it wasn`t good sumo.

The use of henka often disapoints, as do other techniques.

I think it needs to be remembered that there are two rikishi in every sumo bout.

If a rikishi looses due to henka isn`t the loosing rikishi just as guilt?

Which rikishi`s sumo is poorer?

[Chiyozakura 163]

Which rikishi`s sumo is poorer?

Both sides' sumo is poor, but the guy committing the henka gets a win for it...

[Ryunokaze 0]

The question was/is; which rikishi`s sumo is poorER? :-D

Edited September 16, 2003 by Ryunokaze

[Tokimori 0]

The question is: Who cares?

(Hypnotic...) :-D

This subject is exhausted...

[Chiyozakura 163]

The question is: Who cares?

I do. I am a sumo fan. I want to watch interesting sumo. I don't want rikishi to win because their sumo was not as poor as their opponents' but because they did good and exciting sumo.

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

Apparently a lot of people care (not me though :-D )

What I care about more is what Fujisan-zeki said, and I completely agree:

I am allowed my opinions and should be free to express them,without worrying who I offend.

Obviously Im only talking opinions on sumo and not unrelated subjects though.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

[Ryunokaze 0]

The question is: Who cares?

(Hypnotic...)  (Whistling...)

This subject is exhausted...

If you don`t care,why post?

I don`t take any of this personally and dont mind either way.

I dont mind if every bout is won in an exciting manner or not.Then again I enjoy cricket very much too.Probably says a lot about me.

All the best.

(Enjoying a beer...)

[Zenjimoto 40]

My view:

Of course it was a henka. Tochiazuma may have crossed the line first or at the same time, but he did that at a 45-degree angle! It's obvious from the view angle that can't be seen on the feed or Dale's videos, which is the one from behind 'Azuma. He darts to the right from the instant they start. And just because there is body contact doesn't mean that it's not henka. You'd be hard pressed not to touch your opponent at all and still win in most cases, although in this instant it would probably have happened anyways. But IMHO that doesn't excuse it.

I've been saying now for a while that Tochiazuma's sumo as an Ozeki has been absolutely atrocious, and this somewhat adds to that. At least this time, he seems to have a halfway decent record. But I sure hope he shows some better sumo soon, and not pull another single digit win number. Do I really need to post his record over the last year and a half again? :-) That said, I thought his henka against Taikai for the Yusho was brilliant, after getting pummeled the way he did in their match before! (Whistling...)

I like 'Azuma on a personal level, and would like to see him do well (which is IMHO all a "fan" would need to do, win or lose), but his sumo has been a disgrace, which has made me focus my attention on more interesting rikishi.

Ultimately, it is bad for sumo. Miyabiyama vs. Tochiazuma is one of the top-billings of the day's action, and the already sparse spectators are "treated" to yet another 0.5-second bout, which you might be willing to accept with Asanowaka, but sure as heck don't wanna see when two respectable sanyaku have at it. They were showing lots of old bouts as part of the NHK 50-year anniversary, MAN, where those some fascinating bouts! I long for those days, even though I wasn't born (Enjoying a beer...)

One thing is for sure, I HATE hatakikomi! :-)

Cheers

Zenjimoto

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

My problem with the henka is that it fundamentally violates what I reckon to be the essence of sumo. Masculinity and mutual respect of the combatants. One can yearn for a dose of masculinity in the world without resorting to machismo.

I want to see a tachiai. Proper tachiai with four fists decisively hitting the clay and two brave men surging towards each other. What could be more distinctive to a sumo bout than a tachiai? In my mind a rikishi and even more pronouncedly a sekitori owes his opponent a proper tachiai. Yes, even, say, Mainoumi against Konishiki. After that all that falls within rules is OK by me.

Naturally a small rikishi is disadvantaged in such a situation. So is, say, a relatively tall or heavy Grand Prix driver so it's naturally not unique to sumo to have sportsmen with inherent advantages and disadvantages. One just needs to adjust to the situation.

Barely sweeping the dohyo with your other hand is cheap. So is avoiding contact as I reckon it to be cowardly abusing the trust of your opponent. I don't mind a less than perfectly straight contact as long as the contact is hard enough to stop adequately the forward motion of the opponent so that he's not in excessive danger of falling flat on his face.

I interpret Miya's loss to have happened because of his inability to put a foot forward. He came in carelessly too low, too fast. Tochiazuma (or whatever you happen to call him nowadays) met him between the shikiri lines, possibly already in an angle towards right. As a combination of the said things Miya fell down.

If that's enough for someone to call a henka, so be it. But it's not indisputable. If somewhere, here's a grey area. Some say henka, some don't. Both might be right or wrong or perhaps no one is. I admit I haven't seen the view from behind but I seriously doubt - judging from two sideways views - Tochiazuma could have been excessively off the imaginary center line. That's enough for me personally to put the blame on Miyabiyama for his loss.

[Kintamayama 47,179]

My view:

They were showing lots of old bouts as part of the NHK 50-year anniversary, MAN, where those some fascinating bouts! I long for those days, even though I wasn't born (Enjoying a beer...)

Oh, come now dear chap.. they prolly showed 15 bouts max ( Max? Pun?) from 50 years of Sumo. OF COURSE they would show the most exciting ones they can find. I don't think Sumo in the "good old days" was better. There are bouts and there are bouts. Citing a 10 minute potpouri of great bouts held in a span of fifty years as proof of better days of yore is ..well..unfair..

[Kintamayama 47,179]

I want to see a tachiai. Proper tachiai with four fists decisively hitting the clay and two brave men surging towards each other. What could be more distinctive to a sumo bout than a tachiai? In my mind a rikishi and even more pronouncedly a sekitori owes his opponent a proper tachiai. Yes, even, say, Mainoumi against Konishiki. After that all that falls within rules is OK by me.

Oh, then if you would have been introduced to Sumo way back when I was , you wouldn't be a fan. The guys were going at it from a completely standing position, including greats like Taiho and Kashiwado. And I mean UPRIGHT. no casual swishing with one hand on the shikiri-nothing anywhere near it. If anything, the kyokai has clamped down on this in recent years, although I have a feeling it's falling apart again..Just watch a random Touki tachi-ai from this basho..

I don't really mind if two hands are fully touching the earth. If there's a clash, I don't really care what the starting position was..

OTOH, I love henkas. I like variations. If every single bout went the same way, I'd opt for cricket.

Edited September 16, 2003 by Kintamayama

[Zenjimoto 40]

My view:

They were showing lots of old bouts as part of the NHK 50-year anniversary, MAN, where those some fascinating bouts!  I long for those days, even though I wasn't born (Enjoying a beer...)

Oh, come now dear chap.. they prolly showed 15 bouts max ( Max? Pun?) from 50 years of Sumo. OF COURSE they would show the most exciting ones they can find. I don't think Sumo in the "good old days" was better. There are bouts and there are bouts. Citing a 10 minute potpouri of great bouts held in a span of fifty years as proof of better days of yore is ..well..unfair..

Yes and no. But it also became obvious that sumo has changed a lot over the past 50 years, in terms of the wrestlers' physiques and techniques used. I think its safe to say that there were a lot more interesting throws and such, and definitely less of my most hated kimarite, the hatakikomi, which seems to surface more and more these days, due to the increased fatness of the rikishi... The leaner, more technical style shown back then only a handful of sekitori are even capable of any more.

Cheers

Z.

[Gaijinohana 0]

I have only six years of sumo fandom under my belt but I know a henka when I see one. So do several others.

I love this comment. This whole discussion reminds me so much of the a US court's attempts to define pornography. I think that the judge's quote went something like "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it." This henka/no henka seems like exactly the same thing.

It's that time in the thread when someone needs to hint that this discussion may be a dead horse...

But I still think like Fujisan that it is entirely silly that anyone would leave the forum because of some of the comments in here. Ya'll do take some things a little too personally....

[Kintamayama 47,179]

Yes and no.  But it also became obvious that sumo has changed a lot over the past 50 years, in terms of the wrestlers' physiques and techniques used.  I think its safe to say that there were a lot more interesting throws and such, and definitely less of my most hated kimarite, the hatakikomi, which seems to surface more and more these days, due to the increased fatness of the rikishi...  The leaner, more technical style shown back then only a handful of sekitori are even capable of any more.

Cheers

Z.

Yes. Less hatakikomis. But nothing else really has changed. There were always the four- five guys who were lean and mean, most of them high maegashira-sanyaku dwellers.There were adept technicians who were always full of surprises, but lost most of the time, just like the present... There were the little guys who lived by their henkas, there were the blobs who were just there- nothing has changed. I can compile a fine 20 minute showreel that would have you at the edge of your seat crying "wwwwoooow" just from the last two -three years, from RA files I have on my computer. We'd impress anyone's pants off..

Edited September 16, 2003 by Kintamayama

[Zenjimoto 40]

I can compile a fine 20 minute showreel that would have you at the edge of your seat crying "wwwwoooow" just from the last two -three years, from RA files I have on my computer. We'd impress anyone's pants off..

DUDE! What are you waiting for?? (Shaking head...) Get started already! (Shaking head...)

Cheers

Z.

[Ryunokaze 0]

Ultimately, it is bad for sumo.  Miyabiyama vs. Tochiazuma is one of the top-billings of the day's action, and the already sparse spectators are "treated" to yet another 0.5-second bout, which you might be willing to accept with Asanowaka, but sure as heck don't wanna see when two respectable sanyaku have at it.  They were showing lots of old bouts as part of the NHK 50-year anniversary, MAN, where those some fascinating bouts!  I long for those days, even though I wasn't born :-(

Cheers

Zenjimoto

I don`t think it is frequent or infrequent use of henka that has the fans bums on seats.I think this is more to do with many other factors.

I mean it`s more likely many Japanese just don`t have a feeling of history in the making at the moment, as they did not so long ago with the `nohana brothers and the rise of Akebone as the first foriegn Yokozuna e.t.c.

I think if Asashoryu was to start a zensho-run then people would prick-up and start taking notice.People would say"Wow, look something is happening in sumo.I want to be part of that."Sumo tickets would slowly be harder to come by as the run increased.People would also become aware of other rikishi and start following them and so the ball rolls.

I would wager if a study on the use of henka, in it`s broardest meaning,was done for the entire history of sumo at all levels then it`s use would prove to be fairly constant and probably would not coincide with the rise and fall in popularity.(Don`t look at me.No way am I taking that on.Just putting it out there).

All the best. (Enjoying a beer...)

[Ryunokaze 0]

I want to see a tachiai. Proper tachiai with four fists decisively hitting the clay and two brave men surging towards each other. What could be more distinctive to a sumo bout than a tachiai? In my mind a rikishi and even more pronouncedly a sekitori owes his opponent a proper tachiai. Yes, even, say, Mainoumi against Konishiki. After that all that falls within rules is OK by me.

Yes,however if this were to happen then how would you have a feeling for it being "good". It`s the ying and yang(buggered if I spelt that right.I hope you know what I mean)thing.You need something to measure it by.Some type of contrast.Perhapes for you and others henka is that contrast?I dont know,just putting to you for the reason of discussion...

All the best.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Yes, however if this were to happen then how would you have a feeling for it being "good".

Instinctively.

[Ryunokaze 0]

Mmmmm...Instinct is a funny thing it often needs to be built-up and/or fine-tuned and doesn`t just exist by virtue of being.

I think the over-all enjoyment of sumo is greatly inhanced by henka.If all tachiai were as you described, it would be much more one dimensional or predictable.Would it not? :-D