Homosexuality in Ozumo - redux

[勝 Katsu 20]

I know this post is several years old, but I felt the urge to reply to everyone who posted originally.

1st thing, yes, I'm gay...yes...I find Sumo wrestlers incredibly attractive.

2nd, any members who might also like Bara Manga can send me a pm as I've got a site I'm building specifically for this purpose.

Now...to the topic Homosexuality in Ozumo;

Manekineko: Yes, but 10% is a conservative estimate. The gay community rates it between 10-20% of the human (and animal) population.

(and Stallone is an idiot)

Mark Buckton: Yes, Asian countries maintain a generalized "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy and in freer countries like Japan no one is bothered by bisexual leanings. (I know you know but many of the members don't live over here so...)

Thanks for your later answer ;

Amanogawa: Moto-Asashio was definitely saving face for the rikishi.

It is impossible that there are no gay ozumo and that "bisexual" activities do not occur in the heya.

MongolPower:

Having read your thoughts on this matter I have to say your ignorance saddens me.

This is my favorite quote: "I always believed homosexuality is for the rich people with time, money, and boredom. Has anyone heard of people being homosexual in the third world? "

Please someone tell me he was trolling....cuz...damn!

Stephanoshima:

Yah, but due to the lack of support in many countries to the GLBT community, I think it's important to have an open conversation about gays in every walk of life. If (and perhaps even encouraged by this forum discussion) a rikishi were to come out, it would be a win for our community and for Sumo in general! See?

Cavewoman: Please see above answer.

Kaikitsune Makoto: If Asashoryu announced he is queer...I'd probably just faint....whata man, whata man, whata mighty good man! :)

Kintamayama:

(kiss) :)

Edited August 4, 2012 by Otokonoyama
added link to old topic

[shumitto 418]

Hi,

I think you are replying to many people no longer visiting this forum - or at least not regularly.

Yes, there should be lots of homosexuals all around. Boys are brought up by mommy and female teachers, which orients them to a more 'sissified' personality formation. That coupled with the inherently efeminate politically correct ideology and you have got the unmanly man recipe. Western societies have been in the process of narrowing the gap between boys and girls for ages. Equal rights for almost equal people.

In that spirit, girls are educated in the same schools, practice the same sports, have their own career goals, and want to assert themselves now. Boys have to tone down their masculinity in order to maritally be able to live with those girls. But, of course, homosexuallity is nothing new and althoguh aggravated of late, many of its roots are exteremly old.

If you are dominated in a relationship by a boss, a teacher, or someone hierarchically superior - as most are - you will feel it has emasculating effects. Sumotori have oyakata and senpai. The rather 'passive' roles of kohai and deshi should prompt one to live it up and explore sexually what they feel in the other aspects of their pratical lives. Maybe that would help explain why the more older brothers you have, the bigger are the chances of your becoming homosexual. There are simply too many people trying to play the same role in the same house. The weakest(s) link(s) eventually change teams.

What I should add is that in parts of Asia the difference between men and women (hormonally) is less clear than elsewhere and it might have significant implications as far as the sexual development is concerned. In Singapore I recently noticed many people whose gender was not clear from distance; while a colleague laughed I tried to play the politically correct bore, but it happens.

Sumotori are partially affected by western values, have bosses and not as much testosterone as Africans or Europeans do.

Unfortunatelly, with the shadows cast over this topic it is hard to get by good and not irredeemably biased works on the matter.

Edited August 4, 2012 by shumitto

[Igordemorais 75]

I never thought of it, but the all-male environment with the steep hierarchy, the close contact fighting, the testosterone, all together makes it rather likely that sumo might have a gay element to it.

[勝 Katsu 20]

Hi Shumitto,

I’m pretty sure you’re not trying to be offensive...so I’m going to answer your statement as delicately as I can.

1. I knew that I was answering people from an old post, it doesn’t much matter that they are still here,

the things I said were for anyone who would ever read this post.

2. Using words like “sissified” and “unmanly” are offensive because if you know anything about gender studies, you’d know that being homosexual has nothing to do with “masculine” or “feminine” personality traits as “masculine and feminine” are up for debate culturally.

2a it’s roots are nothing new? Uhmmm...there have been gay people as long as there have been people.

3. The myth of the “many brothers” (or even many sisters) perpetuates the theory that environment is the cause of homosexuality... we’re born this way. period.

It is much more accurate to say “the more children one has, the more likely it is that one of those children will be gay” because 10-20% of ALL humans and animals display homosexual tendancies.

3a "The weakest(s) link(s) ..." This is offensive because you’re implying that gay people are weak.

4. Your last statement on sumotori and testosterone is false for 2 reasons;

One, it implies that the level of male hormones dictates sexual preference, and

Two, it implies a difference in race...like the myth of African men having an extra

muscle in their legs so they run faster.

Again, I don’t think you’re trying to be offensive and I’m answering these statements because the ideals you discussed are somewhat common amoung Str8 people all over the world.

Basically, heteros don’t know and they don’t really have to care...so when the topic comes up they end up talking nonsense that came out of the 1950‘s.

[Igordemorais 75]

Is that Goro Daimon on your Av?

[Mark.Buckton 68]

Katsu, I have taught in gender studies at university level and find a number of erroneous statements in your comments.

The main area in which you err is on what you deem 'offensive' - on a couple of occasions above. Are you able to speak for all homosexual men and women in the world in saying what is, and what is not offensive?

In gender studies this is the first hurdle on the first day of class to get over - individuals 'representing' all others with sweeping statements.

You do also claim the classic 'ALL' animals etc display homosexual tendencies when this is neither true nor can it be true from either a biological or linguistic standpoint.

[勝 Katsu 20]

Hi Mark,

MY point was not to try and represent "all homosexuals", however, as a professor who has taught gender studies, surely you must agree that speaking out for an under-represented population is neccesary in a climate of intolerance.

I would amend my statement on all animals to mean all mammals.

[勝 Katsu 20]

Is that Goro Daimon on your Av?

No...heh heh...it's a photoshop'd illustration by Jiraya (famous Japanese queer illustrator)

[shumitto 418]

1. I knew that I was answering people from an old post, it doesn’t much matter that they are still here,

the things I said were for anyone who would ever read this post.

I get your point and I was not actually complaining about it. It was more of a reminder.

2. Using words like “sissified” and “unmanly” are offensive because if you know anything about gender studies, you’d know that being homosexual has nothing to do with “masculine” or “feminine” personality traits as “masculine and feminine” are up for debate culturally.

I unfortunately have been through gender studies. As a graduate in social sciences I was made read the new theories about gender roles and how we should incorporate new categories into our work so as to encompass a new gamut of genders and so on and so forth. I've read about many cases of men who change their genitalia in order to engage in homosexual relations with woman, only to mention one stance. I for one, latch on to the concept that although culturally debatable, gender roles have a biological aspect underlying all its developments. Man is bio-cultural after all. If I say 'unmanly' as 'without qualities thought to befit a man' it might hold depending on the culture. 'Sissy' is bad, I admit it.

2a it’s roots are nothing new? Uhmmm...there have been gay people as long as there have been people.

Yes, we agree on that.

3. The myth of the “many brothers” (or even many sisters) perpetuates the theory that environment is the cause of homosexuality... we’re born this way. period.

It is much more accurate to say “the more children one has, the more likely it is that one of those children will be gay” because 10-20% of ALL humans and animals display homosexual tendancies.

This 'myth' that I am backing up as well as you are your 10-20 % doesn't perpetuate that theory per se. Enviroment might be a factor, not the factor.

All animal species display homosexual tendencies ? Where ? You know that animal species are many ?

3a "The weakest(s) link(s) ..." This is offensive because you’re implying that gay people are weak.

It is not in fact offensive, but in some contexts the weakest link play the passive role in some homosexual relationships. Of course there is much more to it and people high up the social pyramid with power in their hands also enjoy this role. Given that people with otherwise similar lives might be completely opposite with their sexual lifes, I was by no means trying to put forward any 'law' on this difficult matter; rather, it was one example of how some people make that choice.

4. Your last statement on sumotori and testosterone is false for 2 reasons;

One, it implies that the level of male hormones dictates sexual preference, and

Two, it implies a difference in race...like the myth of African men having an extra

muscle in their legs so they run faster.

I never used the word 'dictate'. Libido and hormones are connected. Of course, hormones don't give you orientation and how this drive will be satisfied. Still, I would be eager to know how many men with high testoterone levels are homosexuals in comparison to others. A million things should be factored in, and It might turn out to be statiscally insignificant, but an interesting question nevertheless.

Again, I don’t think you’re trying to be offensive and I’m answering these statements because the ideals you discussed are somewhat common amoung Str8 people all over the world.

Curiously enough, you complain about street people saying "amoung Str8 people". I am not trying to be picky here, but I hope you get the point.

Basically, heteros don’t know and they don’t really have to care...so when the topic comes up they end up talking nonsense that came out of the 1950‘s.

I care. It is simply too important a topic not to have any opinion about. And why the things from 1950's no longer hold on ? By that time the Politically Correct was fledging and slowly setting the tone. If you want to bash on a homophobic time - from a mainstream point of view - you should have referred to some time before. I mean, if you randomly picked the 50's.

the cause of homosexuality... we’re born this way. period.

Myth.

I would like to make something clear. I personally have nothing against homosexuals. They have been promoting their agenda and that is good. Every group does that. But in this effort many important things have been said and many absurds. I hope some middle ground will be found.

Edited August 5, 2012 by shumitto

[勝 Katsu 20]

Yah, str8= straight...it's homo-slang for heterosexuals.

No, I didn't pick the 50's at random. The 50's were when the American Psychology field really started trying to define homosexuality in opposition to heterosexuality. The things you said (like "weakest" unmanly....etc...) are all prevailing words that were used in Psychology and the general public during that era.

I know you're not trying to be offensive, but "weakest" IS offensive...because I am offended...and to answer both you and Mark, if you sent this post to The Advocate, Pink News or even The New York Times...you'd get a truckload of fuh-q letters and be called a homophobe etc...etc...

I'm not calling you a homophobe, I'm simply saying that ideas like "unmanly" simply don't apply to the GLBT community and whether you're trying to be or not, it's offensive. I'm also kind of weirded out by str8 people who think they can speak on whether or not gay people are born this way...I mean, dude...you're not gay....how could you possibly have anything to say about this?

Anyway...

the reason that I decided to redux this conversation is that (as I mentioned before) it is impossible that Ozumo is gay-free.

There must be gay wrestlers just as there are gay teachers, lawyers, doctors, governors, trash collectors, artists, and gas station attendants.

Even if we use the conservative estimate...that's still "1 out of every 10 rikishi is queer". period.

[Gernobono 442]

There must be gay wrestlers just as there are gay teachers, lawyers, doctors, governors, trash collectors, artists, and gas station attendants.

so, what?

[Igordemorais 75]

That's obvious. And that's not interesting. So there's homos everywhere.

What is interesting is to discuss whether there is any homoeroticism intrinsic to sumo culture and to the sport itself.

When I hear stories about tsukebito being forced to wipe their elders' asses I really wonder how far that abuse can go, and how sexual it can become.

[Dr.Radical 16]

the cause of homosexuality... we’re born this way. period.

Myth.

I would like to make something clear. I personally have nothing against homosexuals. They have been promoting their agenda and that is good. Every group does that. But in this effort many important things have been said and many absurds. I hope some middle ground will be found.

Got anything to back this up? I don't really want to stray off the topic, but you can't say something like that without backing it up.

[Kuroyama 715]

On second thought, I shouldn't get involved in this. I should know better than to engage the impervious, particularly when wrapped in an academic cloak.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Kuroyama

[勝 Katsu 20]

so...when board members, Japanese media and famous rikishi say "no homos here!" we can say...."sponge bob liar pants!"

[勝 Katsu 20]

the cause of homosexuality... we’re born this way. period.

Myth.

I would like to make something clear. I personally have nothing against homosexuals. They have been promoting their agenda and that is good. Every group does that. But in this effort many important things have been said and many absurds. I hope some middle ground will be found.

Got anything to back this up? I don't really want to stray off the topic, but you can't say something like that without backing it up.

Hmmm...well, all I can say is that I'm not a fan of science really...and I have seen genetic studies done (a recent one where they "switched on" some chromosome in a mouse and it suddenly preferred the company of male mice) but I can tell you from personal experience: I've always preferred guys and I knew when I was really little that "I wasn't like the other boys"

by contrast, my younger brother (who had exactly the enviroment and upbringing I did) is way-str8, has a wife and 2 kids...

Personally, I believe it's a spiritual matter....:)

[勝 Katsu 20]

That's obvious. And that's not interesting. So there's homos everywhere.

What is interesting is to discuss whether there is any homoeroticism intrinsic to sumo culture and to the sport itself.

When I hear stories about tsukebito being forced to wipe their elders' asses I really wonder how far that abuse can go, and how sexual it can become.

I'm sure in some cases even the Rikishi would consider it abuse but the Japanese have a different idea of sexuality than Western countries and bathing with and scrubbing ones superior/boss/etc...is considered normal.

You can try:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Japan

but it doesn't quite answer your question. I mean...to us, a no-females allowed environment where men literally spend every minute of their day together, walking around in loincloths, wrestling, and bathing each other sounds...well....reallllllly gay but the str8 to gay ratio is probably the same as anywhere else and those activities are not viewed as sexual, just cultural.

[勝 Katsu 20]

Kuroyama...your Sumo cat makes me smile. :)

[Dr.Radical 16]

the cause of homosexuality... we’re born this way. period.

Myth.

I would like to make something clear. I personally have nothing against homosexuals. They have been promoting their agenda and that is good. Every group does that. But in this effort many important things have been said and many absurds. I hope some middle ground will be found.

Got anything to back this up? I don't really want to stray off the topic, but you can't say something like that without backing it up.

Hmmm...well, all I can say is that I'm not a fan of science really...and I have seen genetic studies done (a recent one where they "switched on" some chromosome in a mouse and it suddenly preferred the company of male mice) but I can tell you from personal experience: I've always preferred guys and I knew when I was really little that "I wasn't like the other boys"

by contrast, my younger brother (who had exactly the enviroment and upbringing I did) is way-str8, has a wife and 2 kids...

Personally, I believe it's a spiritual matter....:)

I wasn't referring to your comment when I said that, I was referring to Shumitto's, hence why I quoted him and not just you to provide context. His response to your statement was more or less, "Nope. Wrong." without pointing to anything that would support that. Looking at Wikipedia, it seems like there isn't a current consensus among scientists about what causes homosexuality and that it's probably a mix of things, genetics being part of it. Anyway, I'm just trying to make sure he's not trying to say that it's a choice, because that is a load of horseshit.

Edit: And again, I apologize for taking things off topic. It's just upsetting/scary to me that Americans are bombarded with non-tolerant garbage every day and that for some reason we haven't gotten past this yet so I'm kind of sensitive to that sort of thing. A lot of people are supposedly into "liberty" and "freedom" just as long as someone different from them enjoying it doesn't make them uncomfortable. Anyway, that's the last I'll talk about it. This is a sumo forum, after all.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Dr.Radical

[Igordemorais 75]

That's obvious. And that's not interesting. So there's homos everywhere.

What is interesting is to discuss whether there is any homoeroticism intrinsic to sumo culture and to the sport itself.

When I hear stories about tsukebito being forced to wipe their elders' asses I really wonder how far that abuse can go, and how sexual it can become.

I'm sure in some cases even the Rikishi would consider it abuse but the Japanese have a different idea of sexuality than Western countries and bathing with and scrubbing ones superior/boss/etc...is considered normal.

You can try:

http://en.wikipedia....uality_in_Japan

but it doesn't quite answer your question. I mean...to us, a no-females allowed environment where men literally spend every minute of their day together, walking around in loincloths, wrestling, and bathing each other sounds...well....reallllllly gay but the str8 to gay ratio is probably the same as anywhere else and those activities are not viewed as sexual, just cultural.

I am a brazilian jiu jitsu practitioner, so I'm no stranger to desexualizing close physical contact with sweaty dudes (and women, though rarely). As a matter of fact when it comes to gayness, I think BJJ is the gayest sport there is:

My issue is more like.... if the hierarchy allows for you to command someone to wipe your ass, how far away is that from "suck my dick"?

I'm not sure.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Igordemorais

[勝 Katsu 20]

I've been trying to keep us "on topic" by continuing to point at the Ozumo and saying,

"私は相撲に同性愛者がいることを知っている！" but obviously there is still some intolerance and bigotry on the forum so of course, I have to address that as well.

Thanks to those who are speaking out!

Here's to hoping queer rikishi can eventually come out of the oshiire!

[Mark.Buckton 68]

I've been trying to keep us "on topic" by continuing to point at the Ozumo and saying,

"私は相撲に同性愛者がいることを知っている！" but obviously there is still some intolerance and bigotry on the forum so of course, I have to address that as well.

Thanks to those who are speaking out!

Here's to hoping queer rikishi can eventually come out of the oshiire!

why do many gay clubs / pubs ban non-gay men from entering? why do some that do allow straight men in ban women when with a guy? Why do lesbian bars ban men?

I have been to a number of these places over the years to cover gay issues in print and have found just as much intolerance in the mind of homosexual men and women.

That old chestnut about cake and eating it comes to mind when I hear cries of unfair etc et from the gay community from time to time.

Rikishi can come out today if they want. To not do so is a choice. Their choice.

To blame society for a homosexual feeling unable to do something like 'coming out' is ridiculous and like me blaming my physics teacher for my inabilities regarding kinetic and potential energy difference. If I cannot do something as I want - my responsibility to change that in myself first.

Look at the issues with race relations too as this is very similar. People are afraid of a word beginning with N. Why? Why does a friend from Niger get annoyed with (mostly) black Americans oversensitivity on this issue? Perhaps because when he was born his nationality was listed as Nigger. No negativity whatsoever.

In recent decades even this has been a victim of political correctness as his government now refer to their people as Nigerians.

Just as homosexuals try to force their modern day views on a society that has evolved as is - rightly or wrongly - is a personal take, so too do many others in various 'groups'.

For me as a straight white guy should I be offended that there is no International Straight Folk Day? No Respect White Culture month? No International Mens' Day?

Maybe, but I should perhaps blame gay people / black people / women for not allowing me to say so openly and thus living in fear of 'coming out' with honest views for fear of reprisals!

Please stop the oppression of straight white men!

What next in this increasingly silly PC world?

[shumitto 418]

the cause of homosexuality... we’re born this way. period.

Myth.

I would like to make something clear. I personally have nothing against homosexuals. They have been promoting their agenda and that is good. Every group does that. But in this effort many important things have been said and many absurds. I hope some middle ground will be found.

Got anything to back this up? I don't really want to stray off the topic, but you can't say something like that without backing it up.

Too much for a sumo forum already, but just one more post lest I would leave this loose end.

I have no answer for that. And this question -along many others - better be left opened for discussion than responded, closed and forever labelled as a social taboo.

@ Katsu - My evidence is anedoctical as yours but a former college mate was homosexual and he lived with another lad for a long time. The last time I saw him he was engaged to a woman and looking forward to marriage, much to my surprise. I am not denying your inborn instincts, however, sometimes it is not as clear-cut as you wish.

[Dr.Radical 16]

For me as a straight white guy should I be offended that there is no International Straight Folk Day? No Respect White Culture month? No International Mens' Day?

Maybe, but I should perhaps blame gay people / black people / women for not allowing me to say so openly and thus living in fear of 'coming out' with honest views for fear of reprisals!

This is a silly and kind of oblivious line of reasoning. Every month is "Straight White Culture Month" in America or Britain. In my hometown of Indianapolis, there's a Black Expo every year. The often told joke goes "Why isn't there a White Expo? There already is. It's called the State Fair." It's kind of silly that you begrudge gays or black people for having one day or month of the year devoted to being aware of what they've contributed to societies dominated by straight white guys or the kind of shit they (still) have to put up with in a lot of places.

As for your second point, coming out of the closet or standing up for your rights as a gay person or black person has historically carried a much larger risk of violence, harassment, ostracism, etc than whatever views a straight white person probably has. Just because you can't run roughshod over everyone any more doesn't mean you're being oppressed. Think about it from someone else's point of view for a second, please.

[Mark.Buckton 68]

For me as a straight white guy should I be offended that there is no International Straight Folk Day? No Respect White Culture month? No International Mens' Day?

Maybe, but I should perhaps blame gay people / black people / women for not allowing me to say so openly and thus living in fear of 'coming out' with honest views for fear of reprisals!

A. This is a silly and kind of oblivious line of reasoning. Every month is "Straight White Culture Month" in America or Britain.

B. As for your second point, coming out of the closet or standing up for your rights as a gay person or black person has historically carried a much larger risk of violence, harassment, ostracism, etc than whatever views a straight white person probably has.

A. Can you explain why every month is as you claim? And perhaps what white culture is?

B. If something for one person carries a 'larger' risk, that does not remove the existing risk for other does it?

As Katsu alluded to near the start of this thread, had he posted opinions differing to his own to gay sites, there would have been reprisals against straight people. Is this any better than gay-bashing?

Also. interesting to see the cases of homosexual discrimination was not referred to.