Tochiazuma pic-Dewanoumi or Tamanoi debate

[Mark Buckton 1]

Picture from above session:

Absolutely no fault of Kinta-san here but this could actually be a pic from Tamanoi.

The teppo pole seems a little close to the wall but the positioning of Tochi, what he's doing and even the black lines (edge of wall / Ooyakata's viewing are seem right)

(Punk rocker...) to much of the J media that 'reports' on sumo

[Chienoshima 0]

(Punk rocker...) to much of the J media that 'reports' on sumo

This one should be fit Jonosuke's translation.

Cordialement,

Chienoshima

[Kintamayama 47,134]

This one should be fit Jonosuke's translation.

Cordialement,

Chienoshima

Actually, I got the picture from the article that Jonosuke translated.. This picture is from the Houchi article, which is a diferent article on the same subject. Jonosuke's is at http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/sports/news/20041103ie34.htm.

In any case, it's supposed to be Dewanoumi's keiko-ba in Kyushu and there is a strong possibility that it actually is.

Edited November 5, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

The wall looks to be the same in both pics - especially where it joins the floor...the shots were in all likelyhood taken at the same keiko-ba (where that training ground is - that's up in the air).

The facility looks nicer the the ones I've checked out in Nagoya and area...granted, I only saw Sadogatake, Azumazeki, Miyagino, Tokitsukaze, and Minato. Only 5 of 55 or so... (In love...) There's always next year for more :-)

Edited November 5, 2004 by Otokonoyama

[Chienoshima 0]

In any case, it's supposed to be Dewanoumi's keiko-ba in Kyushu and there is a strong possibility that it actually is.

Humm, not sure... Look at the wooden walls at the background of the pictures.

[Mark Buckton 1]

In any case, it's supposed to be Dewanoumi's keiko-ba in Kyushu and there is a strong possibility that it actually is.

Because?

More than a few times I have actually been at an asageiko from start to finish (Tamanoi / Kasugano / Takasago mainly) and have seen it reported on and translated on in the press the next day.

Odd thing though is that NO press were there during the practice. (In love...)

Second picture is definitely not Tamanoi. The wall is flush around Tamanoi. It is darker thn the wall in pic 2 AND - the rikishi in he background is not a Tamanoi man. Could be a visitor of course.

Edited November 5, 2004 by Adachinoryu

[Mark Buckton 1]

Actually, very best example of a dodgy media was about 2 years ago when Tochi was reported / pictured in either Osaka or Nagoya pre-basho according to the reader of a J paper . Funny because he was in the supermarket near his stable that day - as was I. (In love...)

[Kintamayama 47,134]

In any case, it's supposed to be Dewanoumi's keiko-ba in Kyushu and there is a strong possibility that it actually is.

Because?

Well, since we both are kinda guessing, and that picture was part of the article (I know it doesn't mean anything..), it just seems to me that way. Pretty hard to tell the places apart, just by looking at a teppo and a background wall that looks identical in all keikobas. Now, the blue barbells are another thing. Does Tamanoi have blue barbells?

The second wall could be the other side. No?

Edited November 5, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 47,134]

In any case, it's supposed to be Dewanoumi's keiko-ba in Kyushu and there is a strong possibility that it actually is.

Humm, not sure... Look at the wooden walls at the background of the pictures.

The wooden walls don't necessarily have to be the same all around a heya. I've seen places where everything looked glued together.

[Kintamayama 47,134]

Actually, very best example of a dodgy media was about 2 years ago when Tochi was reported / pictured in either Osaka or Nagoya pre-basho according to the reader of a J paper .  Funny because he was in the supermarket near his stable that  day - as was I. (In love...)

Was that "reader of the J paper" me?

Edited November 5, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Mark Buckton 1]

Actually, very best example of a dodgy media was about 2 years ago when Tochi was reported / pictured in either Osaka or Nagoya pre-basho according to the reader of a J paper .

[Mark Buckton 1]

Well, since we both are kinda guessing, and that picture was part of the article (I know it doesn't mean anything..), it just seems to me that way. Pretty hard to tell the places apart, just by looking at a teppo and a background wall that looks identical in all keikobas. Now, the blue barbells are another thing. Does Tamanoi have blue barbells?

The second wall could be the other side. No?

To be honest - with the Tamanoi / Takasago / Kasugano backgrounds I am definitely not guessing. Have them all in the memory banks as solid as gold. Azumazeki too to the extent of 90%

All teppo have different positions / backgrounds / depths / colorations etc.

Also - Tamanoi inside - TOTALLY that first pic color. And, second pic, taken against the daylight, even with flash doesn't match so not the same.

Tamanoi's blue barbels btw - usually outside in the alley but odd times inside.

[Mark Buckton 1]

In any case, it's supposed to be Dewanoumi's keiko-ba in Kyushu and there is a strong possibility that it actually is.

Because?

Actually Kinta-san - what is the strong evidence?

[Kintamayama 47,134]

In any case, it's supposed to be Dewanoumi's keiko-ba in Kyushu and there is a strong possibility that it actually is.

Because?

Actually Kinta-san - what is the strong evidence?

Strong POSSIBILITY. Not EVIDENCE. I have no proof.

In any case, if you are positive it's Tamanoi, and know every corner of it, as opposed to me never being there, who am I to argue?

Edited November 5, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 47,134]

my mistake - nope I don't but the strong possibility then - it is.....?

I retract my initial supposition. I take your word for it.

[Kintamayama 47,134]

ANR: I fully believe that you know every wrinkle in Tamanoi-beya facility... in Tōkyō, this is... or do you know the regional facilities in Kyūshū, Nagoya and Ōsaka just as well? I'm asking because I got the impression that the report was from Kyūshū... actually, it is explicitly mentioned that Tochiazuma already arrived.

Actually, not to complicate things, it's supposed to be Dewanoumi in Kyushu. ANR maintains this picture was taken at Tamanoi in Tokyo, and has nothing to do with the article.

Doitsuyama's post, which I mistakenly deleted..

ANR: I fully believe that you know every wrinkle in Tamanoi-beya facility... in Tōkyō, this is... or do you know the regional facilities in Kyūshū, Nagoya and Ōsaka just as well? I'm asking because I got the impression that the report was from Kyūshū... actually, it is explicitly mentioned that Tochiazuma already arrived.

Edited November 5, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Mark Buckton 1]

Doits-san - how the devil do you put those line things above the letters in Tokyo etc? (In love...)

[Mark Buckton 1]

Hang on lads - this is now showing me as the thread starter - but I didn't - can someone start in my place? (In love...)

Merely answered an already posted question.

[Kintamayama 47,134]

Hang on lads - this is now showing me as the thread starter - but I didn't - can someone start in my place? (In love...)

Merely answered an already posted question.

I just moved this to another thread, as it was veering away from the topic.. Not to worry.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Picture from above session:

Absolutely no fault of Kinta-san here but this could actually be a pic from Tamanoi.

The teppo pole seems a little close to the wall but the positioning of Tochi, what he's doing and even the black lines (edge of wall / Ooyakata's viewing are seem right)

(In love...) to much of the J media that 'reports' on sumo

This one should be fit Jonosuke's translation.

Cordialement,

Chienoshima

Compare the above photos with this one taken from the Tamanoi-beya website:

I think it's the same wall (look closely at the point where the wall/floor join)...same place for all 3 photos, I'd wager :-)

Edited November 5, 2004 by Otokonoyama

[Mark Buckton 1]

Did this mochi making a few years back - got plastered. (no connection to Tamanoi - family only)

Anyhow - this is in the centre of the dohyo by the looks of it. - Give the Gods a headache that way. All the women who prepped it were sat behind the photographer. Doors pulled off making the kitchen / viewing area one big place - as much as Tamanoi can be!

[Sasanishiki 57]

Picture from above session:

Absolutely no fault of Kinta-san here but this could actually be a pic from Tamanoi.

The teppo pole seems a little close to the wall but the positioning of Tochi, what he's doing and even the black lines (edge of wall / Ooyakata's viewing are seem right)

(In love...) to much of the J media that 'reports' on sumo

This one should be fit Jonosuke's translation.

Cordialement,

Chienoshima

Compare the above photos with this one taken from the Tamanoi-beya website:

I think it's the same wall (look closely at the point where the wall/floor join)...same place for all 3 photos, I'd wager :-)

Sorry Otokonoyama, I think there is some faulty logic in comparing the three photos and assuming they are the same place. I am making an educated guess based on what I see in the photos only, although I have been to Tamanoi-beya in Tokyo once recently.

In the first two pictures you will see that the white around the bottom of the wall is uniform, and thus seems to be some sort of skirting board. In the third picture (making mochi) the paler section of the wood panels is actually not uniform and is caused by water seeping into the walls (I have observed this in person and can verify it is not skirting board).

The second reason to differentiate pictures one and two (if indeed htey are from the same place) from picture 3 is the light. You will notice in the last picture that beyond the window is the side of a building that is obscuring a lot of light. However, in the second picture the light seems to be streaming in, which would not be possible with a building letting only a small amount in.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Sorry Otokonoyama, I think there is some faulty logic in comparing the three photos and assuming they are the same place. I am making an educated guess based on what I see in the photos only, although I have been to Tamanoi-beya in Tokyo once recently.

In the first two pictures you will see that the white around the bottom of the wall is uniform, and thus seems to be some sort of skirting board. In the third picture (making mochi) the paler section of the wood panels is actually not uniform and is caused by water seeping into the walls (I have observed this in person and can verify it is not skirting board).

The second reason to differentiate pictures one and two (if indeed htey are from the same place) from picture 3 is the light. You will notice in the last picture that beyond the window is the side of a building that is obscuring a lot of light. However, in the second picture the light seems to be streaming in, which would not be possible with a building letting only a small amount in.

Having looked at some old pics I am more sure than ever that this first one IS Tamanoi.

Didn't realise but Sasanishiki-san's comments suddenly clicked (causing the check).

There is no skirting board - concrete comes up 6 odd inches to the bottom of the wood.

Water seepage - possible behind the mochi maker as this is an outside wall / alley / bit of a garden.

(NB for later - also, there is a building covering that part of daylight's access to the window)

Teppo pole area (and wall behind) - inside wall (stairs / from kitchen behind it as well as food storage areas. No water seepage seen matches this.

Also, on the light part - building layout behind matches perfectly (see below as other bits don't) - thus some light on the left as we look (near the tap / tape / bin area) is blocked. Right side is brighter which fits.

HOWEVER - not flush all along is still strange - feel the second pic - considering Tochi's position at right angles to standard starting posoton in Tamanoi is weird too.

Don't recognise the rikishi behind either - and if Tamanoi - Tochi would usually have Yoshiazuma / Ohidake / Tooyama in that general area.

Anybody on that Rikishi - is it Lee Harvey Oswald's secret accomplice?

[Ivan Sergeyevich 1]

(Applauding...)

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Sorry Otokonoyama, I think there is some faulty logic in comparing the three photos and assuming they are the same place. I am making an educated guess based on what I see in the photos only, although I have been to Tamanoi-beya in Tokyo once recently.

In the first two pictures you will see that the white around the bottom of the wall is uniform, and thus seems to be some sort of skirting board. In the third picture (making mochi) the paler section of the wood panels is actually not uniform and is caused by water seeping into the walls (I have observed this in person and can verify it is not skirting board).

The second reason to differentiate pictures one and two (if indeed htey are from the same place) from picture 3 is the light. You will notice in the last picture that beyond the window is the side of a building that is obscuring a lot of light. However, in the second picture the light seems to be streaming in, which would not be possible with a building letting only a small amount in.

Speaking of faulty logic...(Applauding...)

The off-white at the bottom of the wall is likely concrete (the wood paneling over the concrete walls doesn't extend to touch the floor - probably best to have a bit of clearance when a clay floor is used). The fact that it appears uniform is likely because whoever put the wood paneling over the concrete wall did a decent job of it). But if we both were to be completely LOGICAL, we'd say it's pretty tough to tell either way from the pics...could be a base-board, could be naked concrete - who knows (although in my experience, most builders/owners don't put a white base-board over nice wood paneling!).

You'll also notice in the second and third picture how the wall paneling changes in the same way at the level of the window and above. The paneling on the upper portion of the walls is lighter than the lower in the last two pics...impossible to tell with the first one. As to the section of lighter paneling in the first pic, it looks as though it has been repaired (newer wood is often lighter in colour...). But since we can't make out that particular point of the keiko-ba in the other photos, it has no bearing on ID-ing the location(s), so why it's lighter doesn't make a difference.

As for the last picture, it is impossible to tell if it's a building outside the window, acumulated junk stacked outside, or something else...You'll notice whatever blocks some of the light is not uniform in shape at all (which you would expect were it a building). Further, we cannot be certain all pictures were taken from exactly the same point / side of the room. It's very likely they were all taken from different points / angles / sides...time of day would also account for difference in light levels. Asa-geiko=morning=light streaming in east-facing windows; mochi making=probably afternoon (don't wanna miss practice!)=light streaming in west-facing windows.

Edited November 8, 2004 by Otokonoyama