Musoyama killed kosho! (split from Basho Talk Nagoya 2015)

[ALAKTORN 346]

Fujishima Oyakata: "That was ugly. Especially since he is who he is, his conduct should be exemplary". (This from the guy that singlehandedly caused the abolishment of kosho, but I digress..)

I don’t understand what you mean with that. “kosho, rikishi's injury during honbasho which leads to kosho seido”. How can someone abolish injuries?

Anyway, Terunofuji is damned amazing. I’m thoroughly impressed.

Kyokutenhō needs to start winning. I don’t want to see him go to jūryō.

[Kintamayama 47,347]

Fujishima Oyakata: "That was ugly. Especially since he is who he is, his conduct should be exemplary". (This from the guy that singlehandedly caused the abolishment of kosho, but I digress..)

I don’t understand what you mean with that. “kosho, rikishi's injury during honbasho which leads to kosho seido”. How can someone abolish injuries?

Well, he didn't abolish injuries. He actually embellished injuries. He abolished the kosho seido. Ask anyone.

[Asashosakari 20,288]

Well, he didn't abolish injuries. He actually embellished injuries. He abolished the kosho seido. Ask anyone.

In fairness, the first shot was fired when Kaio and Chiyotaikai sat out Hatsu 2003 with kosho even though there were reports that both were probably healthy enough to compete. The Kyokai then made an example of Musoyama right afterwards (denying him kosho status outright for an injury), but it always seemed to me that that was more a case of "in the wrong place at the wrong time", not a specific "this guy's a bad apple" matter.

Edit: Maybe I'm not "anyone" though. ;-)

Edited July 20, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 47,347]

Well, he didn't abolish injuries. He actually embellished injuries. He abolished the kosho seido. Ask anyone.

In fairness though, the first shot was fired when Kaio and Chiyotaikai sat out Hatsu 2003 with kosho even though there were reports that both were probably healthy enough to compete. Them making an example of Musoyama (denying him kosho status outright for an injury) came right afterwards.

But before that, there were a few questionable withdrawals by Musouyama. I remember the forum questioning his obvious antics. He paved the way, the others just followed. He was the culprit.

[Asashosakari 20,288]

But before that, there were a few questionable withdrawals by Musouyama. I remember the forum questioning his obvious antics. He paved the way, the others just followed. He was the culprit.

No, that was afterwards; they denied him kosho status twice that year. You can check his record - he had two prior withdrawals as ozeki, one of which wasn't with kosho (he missed his first ozeki basho completely, so no kosho eligibility), and another one in mid-2002 that came after a kachikoshi - I don't recall any rumblings about that absence (maybe I've forgotten), and at the very least he didn't do it to delay kadoban status. The public kvetching started with Kaio and Chiyotaikai, aided by fellow ozeki Tochiazuma actually being very prone to serious injuries and thus even more absent than the other three.

Musoyama may well have been the one who exaggerated his injuries the most - I don't think any of us have actual insight into that though - but the entire ozeki quartet contributed to the kosho abolition. Musoyama was the one who got dragged through the mud, but the situation went well beyond just him.

And for completeness, of course the general public kvetching about kosho didn't even start with the ozeki, but rather with the rank-and-filers, especially after Nagoya 2002 when no less than 6 of them (plus Musoyama and Takanohana) missed the basho without penalty.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Gurowake 4,154]

And for completeness, of course the general public kvetching about kosho didn't even start with the ozeki, but rather with the rank-and-filers, especially after Nagoya 2002 when no less than 6 of them (plus Musoyama and Takanohana) missed the basho without penalty.

You fail to mention here that 5 of them were in Juryo (it took me a long time to find them!), which is quite telling in light of the yaocho scandal in which half the division was dismissed. Those are the guys that are really worried about their positions - guys now like Daido, Shotenro, Tamaasuka.

[Asashosakari 20,288]

You fail to mention here that 5 of them were in Juryo (it took me a long time to find them!), which is quite telling in light of the yaocho scandal in which half the division was dismissed. Those are the guys that are really worried about their positions - guys now like Daido, Shotenro, Tamaasuka.

Yes, in that basho, but the issue was widespread in both divisions at the time. The worst part of that particular basho wasn't just the 8 excused absences, but that another 6 rikishi (all in makuuchi) failed to complete the tournament and 2 others (also in makuuchi) missed days in the middle. The basho finished with just 52 out of 66 sekitori. And of course the 4 maegashira wrestlers who dropped out were then kosho in the next tournament...

(Edited for bad memory.)

Edited July 20, 2015 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 47,347]

But before that, there were a few questionable withdrawals by Musouyama. I remember the forum questioning his obvious antics. He paved the way, the others just followed. He was the culprit.

No, that was afterwards; they denied him kosho status twice that year. You can check his record - he had two prior withdrawals as ozeki, one of which wasn't with kosho (he missed his first ozeki basho completely, so no kosho eligibility), and another one in mid-2002 that came after a kachikoshi - I don't recall any rumblings about that absence (maybe I've forgotten), and at the very least he didn't do it to delay kadoban status. The public kvetching started with Kaio and Chiyotaikai, aided by fellow ozeki Tochiazuma actually being very prone to serious injuries and thus even more absent than the other three.

Musoyama may well have been the one who exaggerated his injuries the most - I don't think any of us have actual insight into that though - but the entire ozeki quartet contributed to the kosho abolition. Musoyama was the one who got dragged through the mud, but the situation went well beyond just him.

And for completeness, of course the general public kvetching about kosho didn't even start with the ozeki, but rather with the rank-and-filers, especially after Nagoya 2002 when no less than 6 of them (plus Musoyama and Takanohana) missed the basho without penalty.

I guess you are right, but the feeling then definitely was that Musouyama's "injuries" were the straw that broke the back of the camel. Or maybe it's just me.

[Asashosakari 20,288]

I guess you are right, but the feeling then definitely was that Musouyama's "injuries" were the straw that broke the back of the camel.

Sure, no doubt about that. But that whole kosho abolition movement had been gathering steam for at least two years, and if it hadn't been Musoyama they probably would have found some other last straw a few months later. He wasn't exactly a scapegoat, but still a convenient target.

[Masumasumasu 902]

But before that, there were a few questionable withdrawals by Musouyama. I remember the forum questioning his obvious antics. He paved the way, the others just followed. He was the culprit.

No, that was afterwards; they denied him kosho status twice that year. You can check his record - he had two prior withdrawals as ozeki, one of which wasn't with kosho (he missed his first ozeki basho completely, so no kosho eligibility), and another one in mid-2002 that came after a kachikoshi - I don't recall any rumblings about that absence (maybe I've forgotten), and at the very least he didn't do it to delay kadoban status. The public kvetching started with Kaio and Chiyotaikai, aided by fellow ozeki Tochiazuma actually being very prone to serious injuries and thus even more absent than the other three.

Musoyama may well have been the one who exaggerated his injuries the most - I don't think any of us have actual insight into that though - but the entire ozeki quartet contributed to the kosho abolition. Musoyama was the one who got dragged through the mud, but the situation went well beyond just him.

And for completeness, of course the general public kvetching about kosho didn't even start with the ozeki, but rather with the rank-and-filers, especially after Nagoya 2002 when no less than 6 of them (plus Musoyama and Takanohana) missed the basho without penalty.

I guess you are right, but the feeling then definitely was that Musouyama's "injuries" were the straw that broke the back of the camel. Or maybe it's just me.

What are y'all talking about?