Banzuke Topics page now up

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

I noticed the Banzuke Topics page for the upcoming basho is now up. ;-)

As always it tells you a lot of useless but interesting trivialities like:

It took Asashoryu twenty-two tournaments from his professional debut to achieve sumo's second highest rank. This is the fastest promotion to ozeki, excluding all former amateurs who made their professional debuts from the bottom of the fourth, Makushita Division among the thirty-two rikishi to earn this rank, since the introduction of the six tournament per year schedule in 1958.

Of the seventeen ozeki in the modern era to have fallen to a maegashira rank, Takanonami is only the third to manage a return to sanyaku twice, following Noshirogata in the 1936 January Grand Sumo Tournament and Kaiketsu (Hanaregoma Oyakata) in the 1976 November Grand Sumo Tournament.

This tournament there are five rikishi in the top division (Tochiazuma, Kaiho, Kotonowaka, Dejima and Aogiyama) who will be absent due to an injury received during one of the six main tournaments held each year. This breaks the record of four for most top division official absences at the start of a tournament last set in the 1998 September Grand Sumo Tournament.

I've been using these factoids to impress women. So far my success in making an impression on them has been perfect! No one is nonchalant about these facts! (Alien stuff)

[Tony 16]

Aki basho will deliver surprises!

Who are kosho ? ( about Kaiho, Dejima, Kotonowaka and Aogiyama )

[Guest Kaikitsune]

Who are kosho ? ( about Kaiho, Dejima, Kotonowaka and Aogiyama

Well all aforementioned rikishi injured themselves during honbasho without interpretation problems of whether some injury suffered during training was the main cause of withdrawal which pretty much qualifies them for kosho status (Kotomitsuki's case few bashos ago was a fluke) so all Kaiho, Dejima, Kotonowaka and Aogiyama should have kosho status for Aki basho.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Well all aforementioned rikishi injured themselves during honbasho without interpretation problems of whether some injury suffered during training was the main cause of withdrawal which pretty much qualifies them for kosho status (Kotomitsuki's case few bashos ago was a fluke) so all Kaiho, Dejima, Kotonowaka and Aogiyama should have kosho status for Aki basho.

While I agree completely with Kaikitsune-zeki on this, one needs to remember that kosho status must be applied for. It's not automatic.

I certainly have no information about the respective oyakata neglecting to do this but on principle it pays to remember this detail.

[Doitsuyama 1,259]

These four rikishi and Tochiazuma have kosho status granted. The kyujo-page of the Kyokai website had this information both in Japanese and English; unfortunately this page is removed with the publication of the new banzuke. As I have learnt this by now I save this page after termination of the basho to be able to look after those facts.

Btw, does someone know if it has happened that a rikishi with kosho status actually has entered the basho?

[Zenjimoto 40]

A quick question:  in the Banzuke Topics, they keep referring to the Makushita division as the "fourth" division... am I missing something here?  Do they count the divisions from the bottom up?

Cheers

Zenjimoto

[Hoshifransu 0]

They may have counted the Sanyaku as a first division and the makuuchi as a second division ... ?

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Do they count the divisions from the bottom up?

Ancient names of the divisions (nidanme, sandanme, shidanme, godanme) seemed to use a different method. They were counted as divisions below the makuuchi.

Nidanme, two below -> makushita

Sandanme, three below -> sandanme*

Shidanme, four below -> jonidan

Godanme, five below -> jonokuchi

* The only one to survive to present.

I believe these names must have been used after 1888 (?) when top ten (?) mai-me of the makushita were separated to form the new division jumaime (juryo).

Since they use the numeral fourth repeatedly to refer to makushita, I think it can't be simply a typo and indeed means the author of the page counts divisions from the bottom up.

What fun would it be if eveything were understandable? (I do not get it...)

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Do they count the divisions from the bottom up?

Ancient names of the divisions (nidanme, sandanme, shidanme, godanme) seemed to use a different method. They were counted as divisions below the makuuchi.

Nidanme, two below -> makushita

Sandanme, three below -> sandanme*

Shidanme, four below -> jonidan

Godanme, five below -> jonokuchi

* The only one to survive to present.

I believe these names must have been used after 1888 (?) when top ten (?) mai-me of the makushita were separated to form the new division jumaime (juryo).

Since they use the numeral fourth repeatedly to refer to makushita, I think it can't be simply a typo and indeed means the author of the page counts divisions from the bottom up.

What fun would it be if eveything were understandable? (I do not get it...)

Are you sure of this?

I got the impression that Nidanme, Sandanme etc simply referred to the second (Nidanme), third (Sandanme) etc row on the banzuke. Therefore Juryo, as today, is simply a special part of the second row, which came to be called Ju-maime.

I also got the impression that the names Jonidan and Jonokuchi were used interchangeably with Shidanme and Godanme (There was even a rokudanme one basho or so if I remember correctly) long before they became the official names.

I also seem to recall the banzuke topics many times before calling Makushita the third division, which makes me agree that someone did count from the bottom, but that it was rather a mistake than the usual way of things.

But since I haven't actually read japanese literature on the subjects, I can't say I know really what to think...

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Are you sure of this?

No, I'm not. What I'm sure of is that I might have made myself a fool once again. (I am with stupid...)

No wonder that explanation sounded too easy. (Looks around...)  (Oh my god...)  (Laughing...)

[furanohana 3]

I always understood this "makushita, the fourth division of sumo" as : the fourth division from the bottom. This makes quite sense, since (most of the) rikishis start in jonokuchi (the first division they are in), then move up to the second division, etc. And hopefully make it to a fourth division... the makushita division.

I think the problem is that the NSK website always refers to the non-sekitori divisions that way (i.e. makushita, the 4th division, sandanme, the 3rd division, etc.), but refers to the sekitori divisions in another way : when speaking of sekitori, they always speack "from the top", like : "Ozeki, the second highest rank"...

The NSK website always looked very unclear to me, regarding sumo rankings and divisions. I think, personnaly, that they want too much to put english translations of all the terms used, without giving a real translation... And so, they just use paraphrases, like "third highest rank" for Sekiwake, or "fourth division" for makushita. If only they could be logical with all that...

If even all the sumo-experts that you are have trouble understanding all that, I strongly doubt that a "newcomer", or just a curious internet surfer will understand something...

Furanohana---------------------