Manekineko 200 Posted February 12, 2003 As I gathered from various sources (english and japanese ML, mostly) Takanohana has accepted one-generation myoseki of Takanohana-oyakata given to him by Sumo Kyokai, and will not be assuming either Fujishima nor Futagoyama names. Also, current Futagoyama-oyakata, Takanohana's father, mentioned that he intends to give over his heya to Takanohana in due time, perhaps as soon as next year (when Taka settles a bit in his oyakata role). This would probably lead to Futagoyama-beya changing name into Takanohana-beya. I understand that name of Takanohana will be a powerful magnet for future deshi, and that it will last next 35 years (until Taka is 65 - mandatory retirement age), but I'll miss the Futagoyama-beya... ;-) Speaking of one-generation heya, Taiho-beya will soon change its name as it enters in Takatoriki's hands (I forgot his oyakata name, my bad). Did it produce any great rikishi in its time? How about Kitanoumi-beya? Did Kokone-beya under Chiyonofuji have any sekitori besides Taikai and Tenzan? I'm asking this because I wonder if great yokozuna are also great oyakata, and I have a hunch that they're not... but again, I lack history, and Taiho-beya and Kitanoumi-beya at least have been around a while. So... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted February 12, 2003 Taiho-beya will soon change its name as it enters in Takatoriki's hands (I forgot his oyakata name, my bad).(...) Did Kokonoe-beya under Chiyonofuji have any sekitori besides Taikai and Tenzan? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted February 12, 2003 has accepted one-generation myoseki Does that mean the heya will only be around for one generation, i.e. until he retires? And then it'll go away? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Manekineko 200 Posted February 12, 2003 Well, since he'll take over Futagoyama, the heya will probably change its name back to Futagoyama when he retires... Much like Taiho-beya (Taiho's was also one-generation oyakata name) now becoming Odake-beya. Same heya, same rikishi, only different name. Takanonami-zeki from Takanohana-beya? (Hehe...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted February 12, 2003 As I gathered from various sources (english and japanese ML, mostly) Takanohana has accepted one-generation myoseki of Takanohana-oyakata given to him by Sumo Kyokai, and will not be assuming either Fujishima nor Futagoyama names. Also, current Futagoyama-oyakata, Takanohana's father, mentioned that he intends to give over his heya to Takanohana in due time, perhaps as soon as next year (when Taka settles a bit in his oyakata role). This would probably lead to Futagoyama-beya changing name into Takanohana-beya.I understand that name of Takanohana will be a powerful magnet for future deshi, and that it will last next 35 years (until Taka is 65 - mandatory retirement age), but I'll miss the Futagoyama-beya... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Does a retiring yokozuna automatically get to be oyakata if he wants to? Have there been requests by retired yokozuna to be oyakata that were denied? I realize if it's a denial it may not be a publicized issue, but I'm still curious. I should change my signature to "I don't speak Japanese but I'm curious :-)" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted February 13, 2003 Does a retiring yokozuna automatically get to be oyakata if he wants to? No, a yokozuna is not allowed to become an oyakata just because he wants to. After the retirement there's a five year period during which a retired yokozuna is allowed to act as an "oyakata-to-be" (there's undoubtedly a term for this but I can't recall it right now) but after that he's forced to resign from NSK unless he's managed to arrange a toshiyori-kabu for himself. I believe, for example, that Azumazeki will pass over his kabu to Akebono few years before his 65th birthday as I think Akebono's grace period will end before that date. (I don't have the dates anywhere now on a university computer.) The very institution of ichidai toshiyori (one generation coaching license tied to the person of its holder) was established in 1971 when Taiho (Yes, the legendary Taiho Koki with 32 makuuchi saiko yusho! ) retired without a kabu. Since it was unforthinkable that a yokozuna of his magnitude would be forced out of NSK, he was given a kabu of his own. 106th and outside regular myoseki. Later, Kitanoumi was awarded 107th. Chiyonofuji preferred an old name and refused an ichidai toshiyori. He became Jinmaku Oyakata and later swapped kabus with then-Kokonoe Oyakata, his shisho, former Kitanofuji. Now Takanohana becomes the holder of the 108th kabu but after Taiho and Kitanoumi have retired (2005 and 2018 if I remember and count correctly), he becomes the sole holder of an inchidai toshiyori unless, of course, another dai-yokozuna worth of an ichidai toshiyori emerges meanwhile. I think no yokozuna or ozeki (Ever? Since the creation of NSK?) willing to act as an oyakata, has been left without a kabu, but I might remember wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted February 14, 2003 That is a great explanation -- answered my question perfectly. Thank you Kotoseiya Yuichi (Exclamation) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,259 Posted February 14, 2003 "oyakata-to-be" (there's undoubtedly a term for this but I can't recall it right now) jun-toshiyori Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,259 Posted February 14, 2003 "oyakata-to-be" (there's undoubtedly a term for this but I can't recall it right now) jun-toshiyori. By the way, does someone know which kanji is used for jun? It could be useful when I get to supplement Kotoseiya Yūichi's glossary with Japanese writings (if this happens is another question entirely). There are two kanji for jun with very similar meanings, both meaning "quasi", "conform" or "associate". The first is also used for words like semi-final, so my guess is that the first is used for jun-yūshō, but I'm not really sure here too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zentoryu 154 Posted February 14, 2003 I believe, for example, that Azumazeki will pass over his kabu to Akebono few years before his 65th birthday as I think Akebono's grace period will end before that date. (I don't have the dates anywhere now on a university computer.) How old is Azumazeki Oyakata anyway? I was wondering about this just the other day. I believe Akebono is already entering the third year of his grace period (assuming his grace period started immediately after his retirement in Kyushu 2000), so I was curious as to what would happen to him. I remember reading something about him not being able to purchase a kabu for himself because of the lack of fan club support (ie, the money that comes with such support). Does this have any bearing on Azumazeki passing on a kabu to him? Or are the issues unrelated? I'm really curious about this, given that I don't know as much as I would like to about Kabu and such.(Blush...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted February 15, 2003 jun-toshiyori(...) It could be useful when I get to supplement Kotoseiya Y Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted February 15, 2003 How old is Azumazeki Oyakata anyway?(...) Does this have any bearing on Azumazeki passing on a kabu to him? Or are the issues unrelated? Born June 16th, 1944. Few years younger than I thought, actually. He will be able to have his 60th birthday as an oyakata anyway even if he aims to leave the kabu to his protege. I believe those things are related. If Akebono had the money right away (and were willing to do so), he should be able to simply buy a kabu from someone close to retirement age, I think. Then again passing the kabu from shisho to deshi is the simplest way. We can only guess the details of such a legal manoeuvre. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amanogawa 79 Posted February 15, 2003 By the way, does someone know which kanji is used for jun? It could be useful when I get to supplement Kotoseiya Y Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,259 Posted February 15, 2003 The right one is used both for jun-toshiyori and jun-yusho. The right one, heh? Hmm, to be honest, optically the right one is looking more like a simplification of the left one than the other way around. So I decided to make the "popularity check" with google. :-9 And google clearly says the left one is the correct kanji. And yet for the official documents published by governments or public offices, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amanogawa 79 Posted February 15, 2003 [Hmmm, could it be that you mixed up left and right here? If I exchange left and right in your explanation in all places, it makes more sense for me... OOOPS! I totally mixed them up and how embarrassing this is! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted February 16, 2003 I remember reading something about him not being able to purchase a kabu for himself Whom would Akebono buy a kabu from? Does the kyokai maintain a list of those kabu that can be bought? Or does the jun toshiyori (thank you the new word in my japanese vocabulary) have to go around asking oyakata that are soon to retire if they would sell to him? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hashira 0 Posted February 24, 2003 from what i understand, it's a fairly well understood thing among sumo circles about who is about to leave, and who would like to become oyakata. there is of course always marriage as an option for former sumotori looking to control a heya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted February 24, 2003 there is of course always marriage as an option for former sumotori looking to control a heya By marriage, you mean if an intai sumotori wants to control a heya he should marry the daughter of the oyakata? Or did I completely misunderstand what you said? :-0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zentoryu 154 Posted February 24, 2003 By marriage, you mean if an intai sumotori wants to control a heya he should marry the daughter of the oyakata? Or did I completely misunderstand what you said? I think they are married before they retire. But yes, marriage to the Oyakata's daughter does give one a distinct advantage when it comes to inheriting the heya as the Oyakata is likely to pass on his kabu to the son-in-law. I'm not sure, but I think this is how Takatoriki came in line to inherit Taiho beya once Taiho retires. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted February 24, 2003 By marriage, you mean if an intai sumotori wants to control a heya he should marry the daughter of the oyakata? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted February 25, 2003 Wow. The knowledge of some members on this board is truly outstanding. Thank you for all the information. I have another question on this topic: how often is it that a rikishi inherits the heya in which he was trained? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted March 4, 2003 How often is it that a rikishi inherits the heya in which he was trained? Inheritance as a legal term? Inheritance due to former shisho's death before his 65th birthday? Or just continuation of the coaching activity from one shisho to another ((adopted) son, son-in-law...)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted March 4, 2003 Not inheritance in the legal term. Let me rephrase my question: how often has it happened that a rikishi becomes the oyakata of the heya in which he himself was trained? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
