KaioU - dai-ozeki?

[Mainokaze 0]

In what way was Musoyama a "great rikishi".

Reaching Makuuchi in 4 basho, including winning Makushita Yusho twice in a row?

31 bashos ranked at Sekiwake or Komusubi?

Winning 5 Shukun-sho, 4 Kanto-sho, and 4 Gino-sho?

Let's also not forget that he was Jun-Yusho 3 other times during Makuuchi, and he won his one yusho during a basho both Takanohana and Akebono fought in. Some of the earliest Yokozuna only have one yusho, so I don't see how Musoyama only having one is a small achievement by any means.

I guess Jakusotsu and Aderechelsea are right that he was a great rikishi, but didn't really prove himself a great ozeki. Still, he was one of my favorites when I first started watching Sumo. He did struggle during the end of his career - but really, what rikishi hasn't? (Chiyonofuji notwithstanding! :-) )

I think Jejima's got the best idea with 3 Yushos making a Dai-Ozeki, though. Without going by statistics like that, it all falls on personal opinion.

[Washuyama 641]

In what way was Musoyama a "great rikishi".

.....it all falls on personal opinion.

And THAT is what makes this so much fun. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong?? It's all opinion...

[Washuyama 641]

To call someone great they need more than that in my opinion.

IMHO Even the word "great" is hard to define in this argument... If they were truly great they would/should have made yokozuna.

[Asashosakari 19,726]

However after that he wasn't that impressive. He had 4 jun-yusho but those don't really count for anything and can be deceptive as several rikishi can finish 11-4 and claim to be runner-up. By comparison Kaio has 11 jun-yusho (5 yusho), Kotomitsuki has 7 (1 yusho), Chiyotaikai 6 (3 yusho), and Kotooshu 3.

To call someone great they need more than that in my opinion.

I agree. To put it in context:

Musoyama until Ozeki promotion: 40 basho (324-214-62, 60.2% wins), with 30 sanyaku basho, 1 yusho, 3 jun-yusho, 4 basho with 12+ wins in joi-jin, 13 sansho

Kotomitsuki until Ozeki promotion: 42 basho (351-239-40, 59.5% wins), with 30 sanyaku basho, 1 yusho, 7 jun-yusho, 4 basho with 12+ wins in joi-jin, 13 sansho

Would Mickey be a "great Ozeki" if he proceeds to have Musoyama's ozeki career?

[Jejima 1,428]

Takanohana I spent 8 years as an ozeki and achieved 2 yusho and 3 jun-yuso. All of this was at a time when there were strong yokozuna. As such, he had a number of hard bouts each basho and, not surprisingly, his average record is probably a touch lower than other ozeki. However, rather than making this completely a quantitative exercise, we should really consider qualitative aspects as well. Takanohana was an enduring figure, he was hugely popular and he embodied the tenaciousness of an ozeki. He had a successful career for 50 basho as an ozeki. Surely this is indicative of greatness at the rank of ozeki.

As much I would like to include him, I don't think he quite makes the grade. His record here. An Ozeki is supposed to be challenging for every Yusho, and as such is expected to get 10 or more wins every basho. During his 50 basho, he won 2 Yusho and 3 Jun-Yusho. So, he 'was a serious challenger for the Yusho' 5 times, or just 10% of his Ozeki career.

Despite his longevity at the rank, double digit win bashos were not the norm for him when ranked as an Ozeki.

In his first year at the rank, not once did he get 10 wins. Overall, he is more of a '9-6' Ozeki than anything else. I don't think you can use the excuse of the quality of rikishi around him affecting his numbers.

Tochiazuma, Chiyotaikai and most certainly Kaio, and even Konishiki, were / are fighting at the time of multile dai-Yokozunas (Chiyonofuji for Konishiki, then Takanohana, Akebono, Musashimaru and now Asashoryu), *and* multiple 'dai-Ozeki'. Yet, they all still managed to get their 3+ Yusho (plus more Jun-Yusho).

Whatever the case, I think we are privileged to have been able to see so many great rikishi (Yokozuna and Ozeki) over the recent years.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Jejima

[Jejima 1,428]

Every time I read this thread, I can't help but smile.

In Hebrew, "dai" means "ENOUGH ALREADY!!!"

Dai-Ozeki??

Funnnnneeeee..

Whereas in English, it sounds like a death threat.

[Peterao 3]

I don't think it makes much sense to judge a "dai-ozeki" on yusho, because any ozeki who is capable of stringing together yusho would be promoted to yokozuna. So a dai-ozeki would be someone who wins a yusho here and there, but is too weak to finish off the job for the final promotion.

To me, the only measure of a dai-ozeki is longevity. He can be counted on go to out there and win at least 9 or 10 bouts most basho, and when he does lose more than he wins, he can be counted on to turn things around in the next basho. By that standard, Chiyotaikai is the stick to be measured against.

[_the_mind_ 0]

However after that he wasn't that impressive. He had 4 jun-yusho but those don't really count for anything and can be deceptive as several rikishi can finish 11-4 and claim to be runner-up. By comparison Kaio has 11 jun-yusho (5 yusho), Kotomitsuki has 7 (1 yusho), Chiyotaikai 6 (3 yusho), and Kotooshu 3.

To call someone great they need more than that in my opinion.

I agree. To put it in context:

Musoyama until Ozeki promotion: 40 basho (324-214-62, 60.2% wins), with 30 sanyaku basho, 1 yusho, 3 jun-yusho, 4 basho with 12+ wins in joi-jin, 13 sansho

Kotomitsuki until Ozeki promotion: 42 basho (351-239-40, 59.5% wins), with 30 sanyaku basho, 1 yusho, 7 jun-yusho, 4 basho with 12+ wins in joi-jin, 13 sansho

Would Mickey be a "great Ozeki" if he proceeds to have Musoyama's ozeki career?

absolutely not. all the musoyama talk is sentimental and not statistical for the people who think he was a "great" ozeki. he was very average if not completely disappointing as an ozeki.

for the people argueing for musoyama, the question isnt if he is a great rikishi, the fact he made ozeki and few others do, compared to the thousands of fighters who never make sekitori, yes he is great compared to THEM. but when compared to other ozeki, its laughable to call him a great ozeki. he is surely not on the short list of great ozeki