Toshiyori-kabu-babu

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

First, I got some indication (and it seems I can't find the webpage again) that jun-toshiyori nowadays (as of since borrowing toshiyori became allowed again) is only valid for one year rather than two which it was from the beginning. Can anyone confirm or refute this?

Second, I wonder if anyone remembers or possibly could dig out their copy of the March 1997 Sumo World. I see that former Yamahibiki (ex-Maenoshin) was fired early in 1997, but that is about as much as I know. Does anyone remember what happened?

Third, I wonder how come oyakatas who quit before retirement (I've seen it on at least two different places) 1996 or earlier are reported as "haigyou" (same as rikishi who quit and don't assume a toshiyori-name) but those from 1997 and later are reported as "taishoku". What is the difference between the expressions, and why the change?

Now, I assume these are rather odd questions and I'm fine even if I don't get an answer, but I do appreciate any input :-)

Edited February 6, 2005 by Yubiquitoyama

[Doitsuyama 1,259]

First, I got some indication (and it seems I can't find the webpage again) that jun-toshiyori nowadays (as of since borrowing toshiyori became allowed again) is only valid for one year rather than two which it was from the beginning. Can anyone confirm or refute this?

Second, I wonder if anyone remembers or possibly could dig out their copy of the March 1997 Sumo World. I see that former Yamahibiki (ex-Maenoshin) was fired early in 1997, but that is about as much as I know. Does anyone remember what happened?

Third, I wonder how come oyakatas who quit before retirement (I've seen it on at least two different places) 1996 or earlier are reported as "haigyou" (same as rikishi who quit and don't assume a toshiyori-name) but those from 1997 and later are reported as "taishoku". What is the difference between the expressions, and why the change?

Now, I assume these are rather odd questions and I'm fine even if I don't get an answer, but I do appreciate any input :-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To the first, where did you see that? I can't remember a shortening of the time. What I faintly remember (or not...) is that the jun-toshiyori period got longer with the abolishment of loaning toshiyori... Well, the "abolishment" never really worked I guess, so... Hmm, ok, I admit, I can't really help. But this stuff always interests me.

The third, haigyō literally is "cessation of business, discontinuation of busines", while taishoku is "retirement (from office)". So it may depend on the situation. I'd think that quitting rikishi certainly "discontinue the business", while quitting oyakata could be more seen like "retirement". But reasons for a change in practice? I don't know again...

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

To the first, where did you see that? I can't remember a shortening of the time. What I faintly remember (or not...) is that the jun-toshiyori period got longer with the abolishment of loaning toshiyori... Well, the "abolishment" never really worked I guess, so... Hmm, ok, I admit, I can't really help. But this stuff always interests me.

The third, haigyō literally is "cessation of business, discontinuation of busines", while taishoku is "retirement (from office)". So it may depend on the situation. I'd think that quitting rikishi certainly "discontinue the business", while quitting oyakata could be more seen like "retirement". But reasons for a change in practice? I don't know again...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This was my problem. It was on a japanese site which listed the current toshiyori owners and when they would retire, but I don't have any real order in the bookmarks department and now it seems I can't find it again... I am rather sure I have never read of a shortening of the time either, but news about this was rather sparse when the change happened, and it was only when Wakanojou got jun-toshiyori I realized jun-toshiyori hadn't disappeared completely when reverting back to loaning...

Actually, there wasn't such a thing as jun-toshiyori before the loaning was abolished, except a limited (5 or 3 years) one generation toshiyori for Yokozunas and Ozekis.

As for "haigyou" versus "taishoku", I did look up the words but it didn't seem as if there were any difference between the situations they were used. Simply, those quitting 1996 and earlier all, with no exception, were haigyou, while those quitting later, again with no exception, were called taishoku. Maybe there is some legal difference or so, but I'm quite baffled for now :-)

Edited February 6, 2005 by Yubiquitoyama

[Burainoan 0]

Second, I wonder if anyone remembers or possibly could dig out their copy of the March 1997 Sumo World. I see that former Yamahibiki (ex-Maenoshin) was fired early in 1997, but that is about as much as I know. Does anyone remember what happened?

He was fired for "abandoning his duties without notice or permission during the Hatsu Basho." Sakaigawa Rijicho favored waiting to hear his side of the story, but was overridden by the other nine riji. At that point he had completely disappeared, though ATM withdrawals from his bank account seemed to indicate he was somewhere in Iwate. Sadly, his wife had a miscarriage shortly after his disappearance.

The May issue had a followup indicating he had subsequently been found in his home prefecture of Fukuoka. He had apparently fled, first to northern Japan, then to his home, to escape from bill collectors after racking up a substantial debt. To resolve that problem, an arrangement was made whereby Takadagawa Oyakata (former Maenoyama) - who took control of the Yamahibiki myoseki after Maenoshin's firing - would pay off the remaining debt, while Maenoshin was set to stay and work on the family farm. Haven't heard anything else, so presumably he's still there. The Yamahibiki myoseki appears not to be in use, though Kinta could probably shed a little light on that one.

[Kintamayama 47,178]

I believe it belongs to Takanohana Oyakata and is not in use. Maybe it's waiting for Gokenzan..

Edited February 7, 2005 by Kintamayama

[Chiyozakura 163]

I believe it belongs to Takanohana Oyakata and is not in use. Maybe it's waiting for Gokenzan..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Yamahibiki was last used by former Toyonoum, who quit in 2003 or 2004. After Takanohana cannot give Fujishima to his son he might plan to give Yamahibiki to his grandson, though...

[Jonosuke 28]

As for "haigyou" versus "taishoku", I did look up the words but it didn't seem as if there were any difference between the situations they were used.

In all practical intents and purposes they are the one and same. The Kyokai used to use "Haigyo" for those who left the Kyokai not due to the mandatory retirement but it does have a bad ring to it as if you have bankrupted yourself and closed up the shop so a while back, they changed it to "taishoku", closer to simply meaning retiring or leaving to all those who left the Kyokai even for those in Banzuke-gai.

[Jonosuke 28]

Actually, there wasn't such a thing as jun-toshiyori before the loaning was abolished, except a limited (5 or 3 years) one generation toshiyori for Yokozunas and Ozekis.

The Jyun Toshiyori system came into effect in May 1998 and initially had a two year term with a limit of 10. Currently it is for one year and a limit of five.

I am not quite sure if they changed the qualification for it but initially a rikishi needed to meet one of the following requirements:

- a total of Makuuchi bashos of more than 20

- at least one Sanyaku basho

- a total of Makuuchi and Juryo bashos of more than 30

Those who read Japanese can check the retirement dates of Toshiyoris at this site.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Thanks Jonosuke! (Sign of approval) (Whistling...)

I am rather sure you managed to link to the site where I saw this first too. Thanks again! (Whistling...)

Edited February 7, 2005 by Yubiquitoyama